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BioEnchanted posted:The whole episode is just the entire senior staff of the station getting really invested in a video-game plot twist and discussing how to defeat the final boss while Sisko's just like "WHY is everyone discussing a videogame during work hours? We're literally in the middle of a war right now!" I thought Sisko’s problem was that Vic’s holodeck program wasn’t racist enough - it didn’t have anything to do with the staff getting overinvested in Vic Fontaine DLC.
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Jun 11, 2023 23:37
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Zaroff posted:I thought Sisko’s problem was that Vic’s holodeck program wasn’t racist enough - it didn’t have anything to do with the staff getting overinvested in Vic Fontaine DLC. i think it was both, he said that black folks like him and kasidy weren't welcome in 1962 las vegas unless they were entertainers or service workers, but beyond that he also didn't understand why they were so emotionally invested in saving a holographic bar
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Jun 12, 2023 00:00
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Beeftweeter posted:i think it was both, he said that black folks like him and kasidy weren't welcome in 1962 las vegas unless they were entertainers or service workers, but beyond that he also didn't understand why they were so emotionally invested in saving a holographic bar And the episode strongly implies that Sisko wouldn't have been such a grumpy dad about their emotional investment at the start if he didn't already have that underlying offense about the whitewashing implicit in Vic's program.
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Jun 12, 2023 00:26
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Payndz posted:Well, we at least hear from Garrovick again, eventually... Mightly En Son of Star Flight 
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Jun 12, 2023 01:00
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disaster pastor posted:And the episode strongly implies that Sisko wouldn't have been such a grumpy dad about their emotional investment at the start if he didn't already have that underlying offense about the whitewashing implicit in Vic's program. it does, but they'd also shown sisko as not being completely accepting of the crew's hijinks anyway. like when o'brien has yoshi in ops, or when bashir tells off dukat while sisko is talking to him on the viewscreen it makes sense to an extent. yes, this is their home, and they deserve to have some recreational time, but it's also their workplace and they're supposed to be professional
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Jun 12, 2023 01:18
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I have now watched Second Sight and Sanctuary. Second Sight was the better of the two, but I liked seeing the Bajorans having to grapple with oppression from a different perspective. I'm not entirely sure they made the wrong call. Bajor is not culturally in a position to be accepting of outsiders and their problems. They literally just avoided a civil war and defeated a coup attempt thanks to Federation intervention. Wouldn't exactly be very welcoming to invite the refugees to stay only to turn around and expect them to pick a side in a war they can't possibly understand. I also loved seeing Quark show his special brand of Ferengi racism. If they had just spent money, he'd tolerate any ridiculous behavior from them, but the fact that they were broke is where his tolerance ended. It's certainly a unique characterization, but as I've said I prefer it as a secondary or tertiary plot in the episode. Second Sight had some great moments for Sisko's character. I feel like they only framed it around the anniversary of Wolf-359 to remind the audience that his wife was dead as we haven't heard him mention her in a long rear end time. Otherwise, it seems awfully convenient that he should learn to love again exactly on the day his wife was killed in battle. I think it's just a symptom of the era it was written in. I enjoy these seemingly one-off episodes that explore a bit of scifi weirdness, and this episode had a lot of it. The terraformer was a blowhard, but his suicide was strangely endearing. It was either him or his wife and it wasn't her fault he was the worst human in the world to spend time around. Also, the seeds of the Dominion are being planted very well. Despite having not seen DS9, I'm aware that a big war against the Changlings is coming down the pipe (I've seen Picard Season 3). I am really looking forward to the first episode where a visitor from the Gamma Quadrant steps foot onto DS9 for the first time, sees Odo, and starts screaming. I thought we might have gotten that moment with Sanctuary, but I'll take the additional setup for now.
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Jun 12, 2023 01:53
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they didn't come up with the founders = changelings thing until season 3. it makes the final episode of season 2 a bit anachronistic but still very enjoyable
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Jun 12, 2023 02:16
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Beeftweeter posted:they didn't come up with the founders = changelings thing until season 3. it makes the final episode of season 2 a bit anachronistic but still very enjoyable Further proving that B5 took the smarter approach by writing the whole plan out from the beginning.
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Jun 12, 2023 02:40
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Atlas Hugged posted:Further proving that B5 took the smarter approach by writing the whole plan out from the beginning.  I'd go so far as to say that B5 is the superior show to DS9, though they're both excellent. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jun 12, 2023 |
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Jun 12, 2023 02:56
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:
I heard it described to me by a friend when I first commented on how good the dynamic between Quark and Odo was that this basically encapsulates the major different between B5 and DS9. DS9 benefited from being made after TNG and so they did manage to avoid a lot of the blunders that early TNG made (with a few exceptions) and started strong with the character interactions and relationships, but they unfortunately don't develop too much over the show. I'm guessing where Odo and Quark end up isn't all that different to where they started, as opposed to say Londo and G'Kar's intertwined fate over the seasons.
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Jun 12, 2023 03:10
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Zaroff posted:I thought Sisko’s problem was that Vic’s holodeck program wasn’t racist enough - it didn’t have anything to do with the staff getting overinvested in Vic Fontaine DLC. That’s a pretty terrible way of putting it since I don’t think Sisko would have been happy either if it was accurately racist 
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Jun 12, 2023 03:30
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Kibayasu posted:That’s a pretty terrible way of putting it since I don’t think Sisko would have been happy either if it was accurately racist Sisko strides up to the holodeck. "Can I come in?" "Of course!" grins Vic, "everyone's welcome!" Sisko scoffs. "This is precisely the bullshit I'm talking about. Call me when they'll spit in my face."
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Jun 12, 2023 03:46
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Someone in a comment made a point that he may be more sensitive to it because he's experienced that era for real in Far Beyond the Stars, so it's kind of raw for him in a way that it isn't for the others.
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Jun 12, 2023 03:48
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BioEnchanted posted:Someone in a comment made a point that he may be more sensitive to it because he's experienced that era for real in Far Beyond the Stars, so it's kind of raw for him in a way that it isn't for the others. This exactly. To most people in Star Trek, 20th-century-or-so racism is just a historical curiosity from the bad old days. (For example, Uhura's calm and detached attitude to being called a "Negress" by Abraham Lincoln in The Savage Curtain.) But Sisko got to actually live it, up close and personal, so it makes perfect sense that it's more personal for him.
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Jun 12, 2023 04:05
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There was a great not-so-subtle moment in Sanctuary where the farmer lady talked about how unfit for rule men were, and then she quickly caught herself and explained that they all loved their men and were only doing what was best for them. All the OPs team made eye contact and were basically winking at the camera.
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Jun 12, 2023 04:13
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nine-gear crow posted:Ehhh, I'd still rather sit through any episode of Season 1 again before Nemesis. I'd watch the sfw cut of the TNG porn parody over Nemesis.
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Jun 12, 2023 14:50
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i deliberately took it slow with the last season of ds9 because voyager is next and I wanted to savour things definite difference in the middle few episodes- not even that they weren't any good, just a bit out of pace (hey there's a massive existential threat of a war going on but we can all take a few days to help vic do a heist to fight hologangsters, right?) and would have been suited to previous seasons better- but at the same time I can see how having all plot all the time wouldn't be helpful all action from here on out to the finish though- really love how damar advances as a character in the final arc- will be finishing up the final 3 tonight, then it's voyager while finishing up the tng films and seeing if nemesis is as bad as folks say
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Jun 12, 2023 15:08
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Keiko thinking she discovered the video was tampered with because of how well she knows her husband is loving lol
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Jun 12, 2023 15:24
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Atlas Hugged posted:I heard it described to me by a friend when I first commented on how good the dynamic between Quark and Odo was that this basically encapsulates the major different between B5 and DS9. DS9 benefited from being made after TNG and so they did manage to avoid a lot of the blunders that early TNG made (with a few exceptions) and started strong with the character interactions and relationships, but they unfortunately don't develop too much over the show. it does evolve, i'm not really sure what you're expecting but quark and odo eventually respect each other. it turns into sort of a version of the bones/spock relationship dynamic
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Jun 12, 2023 16:45
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Kibayasu posted:That’s a pretty terrible way of putting it since I don’t think Sisko would have been happy either if it was accurately racist I think it's a great way to point out to the present(ish) day audience how racist that time was, so I think it actually works pretty well the way it is. But there's also ways to write a similar setting that acknowledges the racism but also doesn't glorify it. Maybe Vic could have done some cool things like going to bat for the black employees, throw in a racist heckler who gets thrown out or something. It would probably not have been a great addition to DS9, but in universe it could have been done. Also I'm the guy who didn't like Vic. He just never really connected for me.
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Jun 12, 2023 16:50
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Beeftweeter posted:it does evolve, i'm not really sure what you're expecting but quark and odo eventually respect each other. it turns into sort of a version of the bones/spock relationship dynamic without spoiling it, londo and g'kar end up in a very different place than where they started in many, many ways
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Jun 12, 2023 16:52
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Beeftweeter posted:it does evolve, i'm not really sure what you're expecting but quark and odo eventually respect each other. it turns into sort of a version of the bones/spock relationship dynamic but do they kiss
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Jun 12, 2023 16:58
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Vegas is actually an interesting setting regarding those issues, because many Vegas hotels and casinos and clubs integrated extremely early compared to the rest of America, largely due to the incredible influence wielded by the Rat Pack, who refused to play at segregated venues or anywhere that treated Sammy Davis Jr as lesser. It was still a nasty place, of course, but things started happening there a little earlier than you might have thought.
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Jun 12, 2023 |
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Jun 12, 2023 17:00
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Boxturret posted:but do they kiss boy do i have an outtake for you
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Jun 12, 2023 17:04
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I thought I read somewhere that Sisko's hostility toward the era mirrored Brooks' hostility towards the era and so they wrote that in, but all I can find is about how they wrote him in specifically because ISB wanted to have him sing on an episode.
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Jun 12, 2023 17:20
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Atlas Hugged posted:I heard it described to me by a friend when I first commented on how good the dynamic between Quark and Odo was that this basically encapsulates the major different between B5 and DS9. DS9 benefited from being made after TNG and so they did manage to avoid a lot of the blunders that early TNG made (with a few exceptions) and started strong with the character interactions and relationships, but they unfortunately don't develop too much over the show. It's funny you bring that up because there are some aspects of Londo and G'kar's interesting relationship that mirrors Odo and Quark (though Londo and G'kar's relationship is obviously much more fraught given what happens over the course of the series).
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Jun 12, 2023 17:26
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Atlas Hugged posted:Keiko thinking she discovered the video was tampered with because of how well she knows her husband is loving lol It's a really solid punchline, which is a very odd way to end what's otherwise quite a dark episode.
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Jun 12, 2023 18:46
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Goddamn "The '37s" is good. I understand why they held over the episodes for the beginning of the second season (the airing dates make it pretty clear), but that as a two-parter would have been a perfect ending to s1 of Voyager, just like they'd originally planned. Janeway quavering in the cargo hold and then Tuvok's "Captain on the bridge." as the next line is a+ poo poo. Kind of parallels New Caprica, in form and then showing you the disparity in themes and mood. Arivia fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jun 12, 2023 |
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Jun 12, 2023 19:02
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From a UK perspective, it’s strange not thinking of The 37’s as the Season 1 finale - those final 4 episodes were released on VHS as part of Season 1, and when it was broadcast on the BBC they treated them as Season 1 (I think they went straight on to Season 2, but maintained the order).
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Jun 12, 2023 21:54
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Zaroff posted:From a UK perspective, it’s strange not thinking of The 37’s as the Season 1 finale - those final 4 episodes were released on VHS as part of Season 1, and when it was broadcast on the BBC they treated them as Season 1 (I think they went straight on to Season 2, but maintained the order). Yeah, it confused me too, but looking at the first airing dates makes it make sense - Voyager started airing mid-season (in US terms) and would have gone unusually late if those four had been included in Season 1. Instead they pushed them back to start on Season 2, and by doing that put Voyager back on a standard US season schedule from about October to April. I'm sure all the reshoots and production messes didn't help (I'm still amused they did a WEEK of reshoots just because they had Mulgrew's hair done wrong when she replaced Bujold.)
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Jun 12, 2023 21:58
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Arivia posted:Goddamn "The '37s" is good. I understand why they held over the episodes for the beginning of the second season (the airing dates make it pretty clear), but that as a two-parter would have been a perfect ending to s1 of Voyager, just like they'd originally planned. Janeway quavering in the cargo hold and then Tuvok's "Captain on the bridge." as the next line is a+ poo poo. What about the incredible cities though
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Jun 12, 2023 22:05
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Tighclops posted:What about the incredible cities though I thought that was an obvious casualty of putting it down to one episode and making it fit that format. I imagine in a two-parter the slaver abductor aliens who took the 37s would have come back as well.
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Jun 12, 2023 22:11
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Arivia posted:without spoiling it, londo and g'kar end up in a very different place than where they started in many, many ways F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:It's funny you bring that up because there are some aspects of Londo and G'kar's interesting relationship that mirrors Odo and Quark (though Londo and G'kar's relationship is obviously much more fraught given what happens over the course of the series). Beeftweeter posted:it does evolve, i'm not really sure what you're expecting but quark and odo eventually respect each other. it turns into sort of a version of the bones/spock relationship dynamic It really feels to me that Odo and Quark are only ever one episode away from acknowledging that their relationship can be mutually beneficial, with Quark supplying Odo with information and Odo turning a blind eye to certain unscrupulous activities so long as Quark doesn't cross any major lines (like he did in Invasive Procedures). I mean, this is basically what the relationship already is: it's just that Odo and Quark are mutually annoyed with each other over it rather than having any respect for the other's methods. Babylon 5 on the other hand has G'Kar go from Gul Dukat to a beloved and genuinely respected Kai and philosopher, and Londo goes from Morn to Gul Dukat. This interpretation is of course based on my own interpretation of Gul Dukat by this point in Season 2. It's entirely possible that there's a better comparison for a tyrannical leader that has yet to be introduced, but from the limited information I have, this is the best analogy I can make. G'Kar and Londo are really more like Bajor and Cardassia than they are Odo and Quark in any case. G'Kar and the Narn people have just become free of a Centauri occupation. G'Kar is the ambassador for the Narn on B5 and he comes across as the campy villain in the first season, always trying to scheme and get one over on the other species, especially the Centauri. Londo meanwhile has been put out to pasture and is basically just living out his days as the sun sets on the Centauri Republic. But then Londo makes a deal with very nearly the literal devil, the Shadows, and this allows the Centauri Republic to resume its occupation of Narn. G'Kar is stripped of power, and thus begins his spiritual journey. The Shadows are eventually defeated, but one of their client races uses parasitic mind control organisms to take over the leadership of the Centauri government, manipulating them from, uh, the shadows. Londo eventually rises to Emperor and is forced to accept a symbiote that controls his decision making. G'Kar learns of this, and at Londo's request, strangles Londo to death. The parasitic creature forces Londo to strangle G'Kar in return. This fulfills the prophecy from early in the show that the two would eventually kill each other. They both assumed it would be done out of hatred, but in the end it was an act of compassion and sacrifice done to ensure peace in the galaxy. God B5 is so loving good. Gaz-L posted:It's a really solid punchline, which is a very odd way to end what's otherwise quite a dark episode. One of the legit funniest things in the show so far. I love that Sisko took her at face value and it did end up being the motivation they needed to find O'Brien and Bashir alive, but it all coming down to being a lucky coincidence and Keiko not knowing O'Brien's nuances as well as she thought is loving hilarious. After watching Whispers, my head canon is the following: Real O'Brien was tricked into traveling to a fake DS9 where he met an all Replicant crew (was it a holodeck, an elaborate set, or a faithful recreation? Who cares!). The Paradan government wanted to know how much of a threat O'Brien was to them and their plans and discovered through his meeting with Sisko that he could tell when their moods and intentions changed based on their smell. The Paradans for some reason don't themselves have this ability, their scents being more a defensive mechanism from earlier in their evolution than anything relevant to their current biology or culture. They feared that O'Brien would realize that the Paradan government planned on sending an assassin to the peace talks, and so lured him into a trap on Paradas 2 to kill him when he escaped from DS9. The "real" O'Brien we see is the replicant who attended the peace talks and allowed the rebel leaders to be assassinated, since his clone was made with a reduced sense of smell and taste. The replicant O'Brien was believed to have been killed in the assassination attack, but was actually taken to be the bait to lure in the real O'Brien. With the real O'Brien dead, the assassination complete, and the Federation leaving in disgust, all the Paradans had to do was shutoff the replicant to tie off loose ends. All of Picard Seasons 1-3 are the fever dreams of replicant O'Brien's brain dying.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:50
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Arivia posted:I thought that was an obvious casualty of putting it down to one episode and making it fit that format. I imagine in a two-parter the slaver abductor aliens who took the 37s would have come back as well. They could have at least reused that one matte painting from TNG one more time
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Jun 13, 2023 01:24
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the end to ds9 could have been better paced and slightly less maudlin but grand otherwise starting voyager now, opening episode does a pretty good job of setting things up, feels like a tng episode with a different cast **Edit ah gently caress slightly rescinded, we didn't even get through the first episode without the jamake highwater bullshit appearing DesperateDan fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Jun 13, 2023 |
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Jun 13, 2023 09:13
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Watching "Paradise". There's no way this ends with anything but revealing that Alixus sabotaged the technology herself.
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Jun 13, 2023 14:19
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https://twitter.com/DylanRoth/status/1668618559738748930 Hell yeah
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Jun 13, 2023 15:55
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Atlas Hugged posted:Watching "Paradise". This episode actually aged kind of well, despite the fairly re-hashed "village planet" tropes. At the end, the leader's grand deception is revealed, but the villagers don't really care all that much because she got results. They don't care about their whole society being built on lies and intimidation, they're happy to just let one bad leader get arrested and continue what they were doing.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:21
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What a bizarre way of rounding off a thoroughly positive review. Saying effectively "If SNW disappeared from canon, nothing of value would be lost" sounds incredibly negative and dismissive.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:22
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Payndz posted:What a bizarre way of rounding off a thoroughly positive review. Saying effectively "If SNW disappeared from canon, nothing of value would be lost" sounds incredibly negative and dismissive. I think it’s the exact opposite of that - SNW is so good it’s worth keeping going even if it doesn’t match up with canon. The end result is worth torpedoing canon for.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:24
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