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The Baron viewed the Fremen as pests that were mostly obliterated by the Sardukar and Rabban. Hawat's tells him that there are probably millions of Fremen still remaining, and that they were even better fighters than the Sardukar. That's when the Selusa Secundus being where they recruit from comes up, and the Baron gets very nervous about the conversation he had with Fenring.
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Jun 12, 2023 19:43
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Yeah, the Rabban/Feyd plot is just about winning over the "Arrakeen labour pool" to make things run more smoothly. (IIRC, there are some lines about how the Landsraad disapproves of how brutally they run Arrakis. Not that anyone in power gives a poo poo about human rights, but nobody wants the jewel of the Imperium to wind up a giant chemical toilet like Giedi Prime.) It's not until Hawat clues him in that the Baron even considers the long-term implications of what one could accomplish with obedient Fremen.
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Jun 12, 2023 20:16
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It still strikes me as slightly funny that DV's DUNC is just a big-budget version of the SciFi miniseries...
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Jun 12, 2023 20:40
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it's been mentioned a few times in various ways, but I had always interpreted everything breaking the Harkonnen's way initially is because the things they are doing are things that just aren't done in the year 10,000whatever. That, and there's probably a fair amount of potemkinism happening, the Suk conditioning is certified by the emperor, so most people aren't going to question that, but if you get one person crazy enough to look for cracks, they will probably find some. The sardukar are ruthless and you don't want to have them set against you, but the Leto decides to just...train his soldiers really hard and also not treat them like poo poo, but give them a sense of pride and devotion, suddenly they are as good as the condemned that fight for the emperor. it's all about illusions, and ol' Vlad Harkonnen seems to be the one most willing to destroy them with extreme prejudice.
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Jun 13, 2023 06:37
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IIRC the Baron has the whole speech about how lovely Feyd can walk the poorest streets of Giedi Prime and be treated as a hero because of his manufactured reputation and role in the bread and circuses. The Harkonnens are gleefully depraved and decadent but they understand the value of appearances and facades. It's practically their whole thing. See above how the Baron intends to use Rabban as a scapegoat and then present Feyd as a golden child saviour. It's a rigged game, like like the duel. God dammit now I'm picturing the Baron as Vince McMahon.
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Jun 13, 2023 07:40
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:It still strikes me as slightly funny that DV's DUNC is just a big-budget version of the SciFi miniseries...
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Jun 13, 2023 08:20
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Ghost Leviathan posted:God dammit now I'm picturing the Baron as Vince McMahon.  Just imagine Vince being 20% more hosed up and right-wing
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Jun 13, 2023 08:34
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Martman posted:In my personal opinion DV's Dunc is an adaptation of the book Dune by Frank Herbert Just like the mini-series was! Suspicious...
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Jun 13, 2023 08:34
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:It still strikes me as slightly funny that DV's DUNC is just a big-budget version of the SciFi miniseries...
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Jun 13, 2023 09:59
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Failed Imagineer posted:
The Baron is significantly less hosed up in the head than Vince. Vlad at least acknowledges that he had an interest in loving guys, Vince just struts around barking that he's the manliest guy around while also muttering slurs under his breath and then salivating over the biggest beefcakes he can imagine. edit not to imply Vince is closeted, he just has an impossibly broken concept of both sexuality and masculinity Baron von Eevl fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Jun 13, 2023 |
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Jun 13, 2023 12:09
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Aces High posted:it's been mentioned a few times in various ways, but I had always interpreted everything breaking the Harkonnen's way initially is because the things they are doing are things that just aren't done in the year 10,000whatever. That, and there's probably a fair amount of potemkinism happening, the Suk conditioning is certified by the emperor, so most people aren't going to question that, but if you get one person crazy enough to look for cracks, they will probably find some. The sardukar are ruthless and you don't want to have them set against you, but the Leto decides to just...train his soldiers really hard and also not treat them like poo poo, but give them a sense of pride and devotion, suddenly they are as good as the condemned that fight for the emperor. Well on of the things Leto had going for him, and probably something that made the Emperor jealous, was that his house was such a coalition of powers. His son was a trained mental, his consort a Bene Gesserit, his personal guard were all trained by a member of the sword man's guild. He was probably hoping, once he was established on Arrakis, fold someone from the Navigator's guild into his house.
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Jun 13, 2023 14:47
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Baron von Eevl posted:The Baron is significantly less hosed up in the head than Vince. Vlad at least acknowledges that he had an interest in loving guys, Vince just struts around barking that he's the manliest guy around while also muttering slurs under his breath and then salivating over the biggest beefcakes he can imagine. The Baron is a pederast who drugs his victims to have his way with them... and for all we know, Vince isn't. So, I'd say that the Barron is worse because of that. Halloween Jack posted:When the Baron tells Rabban to squeeze Arrakis for profit, he's actually setting him up to fail. His plan is to make the people hate Rabban and then introduce Feyd as a savior. How is the Guild complicit in the initial plot exactly? We're never given any indication that they would have had to notify the Atreides of the incoming troop transport if the situation was any different. The Guild charges the Baron astronomical fees because of the absolute magnitude of the invasion force that the Harkonnens sent, as well as there being a premium on troop transports, if I'm remembering right. The Guild only cares about hyperspace transport throughout the galaxy and doesn't care about politics. That's what the Bene Gesserit's focus is. We're told as such both through when Paul meets the Reverend Mother and when Leto talks to Paul aboard the heighliner.
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Jun 13, 2023 15:56
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That's like saying that the Guild doesn't fly spaceships and actually just plays with calculators all day, because they "emphasize pure mathematics." Of course the Guild cares about politics; they have diplomats and representatives. We're talking about governance of Arrakis, and the Guild needs spice more than anyone else.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:40
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DarkSol posted:How is the Guild complicit in the initial plot exactly? We're never given any indication that they would have had to notify the Atreides of the incoming troop transport if the situation was any different. That is how the Guild is complicit in the plot.
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Jun 13, 2023 16:42
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Schwarzwald posted:That is how the Guild is complicit in the plot. Does that mean that the Guild is complicit on the Atreides' raid on Geidi Prime?
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Jun 13, 2023 20:31
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No, because the Atreides raid isn't illegal and isn't a deliberate plot to crash the galactic economy.
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Jun 13, 2023 20:55
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Ghost Leviathan posted:IIRC the Baron has the whole speech about how lovely Feyd can walk the poorest streets of Giedi Prime and be treated as a hero because of his manufactured reputation and role in the bread and circuses. The Harkonnens are gleefully depraved and decadent but they understand the value of appearances and facades. It's practically their whole thing. See above how the Baron intends to use Rabban as a scapegoat and then present Feyd as a golden child saviour. It's a rigged game, like like the duel. Leto surmises briefly that even the Baron's weight and his hedonistic nature is something he enthusiastically plays up because it makes a lot of the nother nobles not take him seriously which works in his favor. DarkSol posted:Does that mean that the Guild is complicit on the Atreides' raid on Geidi Prime? Absolutely "not." "I did not say this...I was not here..." It's said IIRC that Leto (or was it Leto's dad?) was the one to start the formal vendetta against the Harkonnes, but I'm sure the Guild was happy to egg that on if at the end of the day they wanted the Atreides and eventually by the time the book starts Paul specifically dealt with.
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Jun 14, 2023 02:32
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Aces High posted:it's been mentioned a few times in various ways, but I had always interpreted everything breaking the Harkonnen's way initially is because the things they are doing are things that just aren't done in the year 10,000whatever. That, and there's probably a fair amount of potemkinism happening, the Suk conditioning is certified by the emperor, so most people aren't going to question that, but if you get one person crazy enough to look for cracks, they will probably find some. The sardukar are ruthless and you don't want to have them set against you, but the Leto decides to just...train his soldiers really hard and also not treat them like poo poo, but give them a sense of pride and devotion, suddenly they are as good as the condemned that fight for the emperor. Yeah this is a good post
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Jun 14, 2023 06:35
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Changed my opinion. The Guild is accessory to the conspiracy at a minimum. There’s no way the did not know they were transporting the sardaukar to Arrakis. They can claim plausible deniability, both in terms of the cargo they transport and their political neutrality though. So *shrug spice addicted shoulders* They are not going to topple the feudal system, and their own monopoly. And the entire galaxy runs on spice which means it doesn’t matters who personally rules Arrakis, doctrine ( exploit the gently caress of the locals and keep the spice flowing) remains constant. So they are happy to not take sides within the orthodoxy of arrakis explotation.
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Jun 14, 2023 08:31
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The guild (at least the ones that arent mutant fish people) should just mine the poo poo themselves. Why do they even need anyone if they have a monopoly on space travel. "Hey Arrakis is ours now. Good luck flying here to take it back fuckers. peace"
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Jun 14, 2023 09:26
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They don't have an army to suppress the Fremen and they don't want to bother with all the infrastructure of mining, refining, avoiding sandworms, etc.
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Jun 14, 2023 10:01
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IIRC they also have a deal with the Southern Fremen anyway to trade spice for turning a blind eye to the projects in the south.
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Jun 14, 2023 10:12
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Why mine yourself when you can just manipulate everyone else to do it for you and demand huge payments of spice?
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Jun 14, 2023 10:45
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It's also like asking "why doesn't Exxon/Mobile become the President of [oil producing country] instead of trying to get politicians in their pocket to become the president?"
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Jun 14, 2023 12:10
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Just like the emperor, the Harkonnens, and the Bene Gesserit, the Guild is convinced that their position at the beginning of the book is perfectly secure and that they're the real main power in the galaxy. That's partly why they don't recognize the threat Paul or anyone else willing to go outside the usual ways poses to them
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Jun 14, 2023 12:59
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There’s not much info on this, but I believe FTL travel existed before the Guild (how the hell did anyone get to Arrakis to discover the spice otherwise?). It’s just way slower and more dangerous than using Navigators. In my head canon it involves talking smaller incremental jumps and sometimes you calculate/guess wrong and jump into a star, whoops!
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Jun 14, 2023 13:46
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david_a posted:There’s not much info on this, but I believe FTL travel existed before the Guild (how the hell did anyone get to Arrakis to discover the spice otherwise?). It’s just way slower and more dangerous than using Navigators. In my head canon it involves talking smaller incremental jumps and sometimes you calculate/guess wrong and jump into a star, whoops! The appendixes of the first book have a list of the planets that Zensunni Wanderers have been persecuted from, and I think there's somewhere in the book that hints that Fremen (which, presumably, mean the folks on Arrakis, who descended from the Zensunni Wanderers) have been around for about 4000 years. There's also a section in the later books (Heretics, I think), where Leto Atreides II explicitly says that the Sandworms didn't originate on Arrakis, but were introduced there (though this is never subsequently explored). It's implied that this is what gives the Bene Gesserit the idea to try and terraform Wallach IX (I believe it's hinted that all other attempts at transplating Sandworms up until that point have been unsuccessful). If you accept the foreword of the Dune Encyclopedia, in which Frank Herbert says that it's canon (except that he reserves the right to change facts after it's been published), the first Melange-guided foldspace journey happens about 100 years before the Guild is formed, and about 7000 years after the Holtzman effect that powers foldspace generators is discovered. The vast majority of these 7000 years happened while Thinking Machines were actively used (so it's not a big leap to assume they used computer-guided foldspace-generators), and by the time of the events of Chapterhouse of Dune (which the Dune Encyclopedia doesn't cover), the Ixians have managed to re-make computer-guided foldspace-generators and the Bene Tleilax have managed to duplicate Melange. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Jun 14, 2023 |
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Jun 14, 2023 13:53
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Neo Rasa posted:Absolutely "not." That line from the 1984 movie, not the book. There's not much to go off of in the book to show that the Guild conspired against House Atreides until the very end, when Paul calls out the Guildsmen. But that conspiracy is due to the Guild being fearful of the Water of Death and what Paul could do to the spice and the Guild's monopoly on interstellar travel. And the Harkonnens had a beef with the Atreides for literal millennia, since the Battle of Corrin, when someone in House Atreides had the Harkonnens banished for cowardice during said battle. The Baron just happened to be the one to actually bring the vendetta to reality. hump day bitches! posted:Changed my opinion. The Guild is accessory to the conspiracy at a minimum. There’s no way the did not know they were transporting the sardaukar to Arrakis. How would the Guild know that there were Sardaukar in the Harkonnen troop transports? 
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Jun 14, 2023 14:33
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Yeah, travel still existed in the time between the jihad and the melange but it was dangerous with 1 in 10 ships disappearing never to be heard from again. ^^^^ It's actively stated the Guild did not want Atreides on Arrakiss. They didn't know who but they knew someone in Leto's orbit was a focal point in destiny and that clouded their prescience in regards to the planet. Macdeo Lurjtux fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Jun 14, 2023 |
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Jun 14, 2023 14:34
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I think Leto tells Paul that the ships docked next to them in the Heighliner could be Harkonnen. And not only does the guild not care, they would forever deny travel to anyone stupid enough to try and start something while under the guild’s aegis. They’re presented as truly neutral and working only as facilitators of travel. In reality they’re pieces of poo poo but who in this universe isn’t? In my reading it all works based on a checks and balances type deal. The emperor can wipe out anyone who gets too disruptive, but the lansraad is powerful enough as an aligned bloc to make any overreach by the emperor fatal. And the guild is there as an impartial arbiter to make everyone rethink their moves against the status quo lest they get ostracized and stranded.
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Jun 14, 2023 15:23
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DarkSol posted:How would the Guild know that there were Sardaukar in the Harkonnen troop transports?
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Jun 14, 2023 15:37
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Halloween Jack posted:You have this ludicrously literal-minded view of Dune where Paul says that the Bene Gesserit leader does politics, and you interpret that to mean that nobody else does politics and so presumably, nobody in the Guild looks at or talks to anyone except to sell them plane tickets. That's the first rule of hauling anything. Don't ask questions just get paid
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Jun 14, 2023 15:50
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DarkSol posted:How would the Guild know that there were Sardaukar in the Harkonnen troop transports? They knew because the Heighliner stopped at Salusa Secundus and picked them up. I guess the Harkonnens could have given them plausible deniability by landing a bunch of their own troop transports on the Emperors secretive prison planet, but even if there were some other scheme to smuggle Sarduakar I find it hard to believe that the Guild would be so uninformed/naive not to realize they were transporting them. It’s established they turn a blind eye if you pay them enough.
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Jun 14, 2023 19:35
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I rewatched DUNC and in the scene where the palace on Arrakis was being invaded, Gurney leads a bunch of men outside onto the airfield(?) and it both sounded like and looked like Gurney's plan was to lead his men onto the troop transports. This didn't go well of course because all the transports got torpedoed to bits but let's assume Gurney's forces were able to board their transports and the transports took off. Then what? What exactly was the plan here? They were gonna board the enemy's ships good ol' fashioned pirate style or what? e: Something cool I picked up watching this a second time that I totally missed (and tbh, I prolly would have missed it this time too if I hadn't have watched the DUNC II trailer) was that Kynes was preparing to hide a ride on that sandworm before she got stabbed. When I watched the movie the first time I thought she was setting up the thumper to attract the worm to kill the Sardukar people. Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Jun 15, 2023 |
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Jun 15, 2023 01:00
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Boris Galerkin posted:I rewatched DUNC and in the scene where the palace on Arrakis was being invaded, Gurney leads a bunch of men outside onto the airfield(?) and it both sounded like and looked like Gurney's plan was to lead his men onto the troop transports. This didn't go well of course because all the transports got torpedoed to bits but let's assume Gurney's forces were able to board their transports and the transports took off. Then what? What exactly was the plan here? They were gonna board the enemy's ships good ol' fashioned pirate style or what? Probably just to escape the massacre. Live to fight another day and all that.
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Jun 15, 2023 02:14
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Gurney wanted a good view of the battle so he could write an epic song
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Jun 15, 2023 02:18
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david_a posted:Probably just to escape the massacre. Live to fight another day and all that. Would the spacing guild have let them use their wormhole ship thing to escape? I haven’t read the books but it sounds like all they care about is money and I don’t see how a bunch of fleeing refugees are gonna pay the toll.
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Jun 15, 2023 02:43
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Boris Galerkin posted:Would the spacing guild have let them use their wormhole ship thing to escape? I figured they would just hide in the desert; there’s a lot of it after all. Step 0 is stop getting blown up. Further problems can be solved later.
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Jun 15, 2023 02:47
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I guess that makes sense but then they’ve got an even bigger problem to worry about, the worms. I figured if they did escape it would be to go to the landsrad like Jessica wanted Paul to do.
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Jun 15, 2023 02:50
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david_a posted:There’s not much info on this, but I believe FTL travel existed before the Guild (how the hell did anyone get to Arrakis to discover the spice otherwise?). It’s just way slower and more dangerous than using Navigators. In my head canon it involves talking smaller incremental jumps and sometimes you calculate/guess wrong and jump into a star, whoops! As a reminder, the navigators don't fold space, the Holtzman drive does. The navigators make the process reliable. It may be that navigators simply look 5 minutes into the future and see if the ship blew up, and if it did make adjustments until it works. Perhaps pre-guild ships had to use BattleTech rules for system entry and a navigator assisted jump would be considered an extreme Pirate jump.
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Jun 15, 2023 02:51
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