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Aces High posted:when was it established that dragons could take on human forms? I ask because up until playing WoW (which was a really long time ago, I played about 4 months before Cataclysm and then stopped after another month or so into that expansion) I had always imagined that the dragons were just dragons. I can't think of anything in Reign of Chaos or Frozen Throne that shows dragons as anything other than that, so was it something in the lead-up to WoW that they decided they could take on human forms? Wasn't Deathwing-as-Prestor a thing that happened in Arthas' youth? I can't remember if it's referenced in the WC3 manual.
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Jun 14, 2023 02:05
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Cythereal posted:The only direct explanation we've ever been given by the game is that if the Horde never invaded Azeroth, the human kingdoms would have warred among themselves and been too divided and weak to defeat the Legion's invasion that's coming in WC3, if they'd ever made it to Kalimdor in the first place. Eternal hellwar making you strong is either Dragon Ball logic, or fascist claptrap, and the rest of the writing really doesn't lend itself to the former.
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Jun 14, 2023 02:13
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Aces High posted:when was it established that dragons could take on human forms? I ask because up until playing WoW (which was a really long time ago, I played about 4 months before Cataclysm and then stopped after another month or so into that expansion) I had always imagined that the dragons were just dragons. I can't think of anything in Reign of Chaos or Frozen Throne that shows dragons as anything other than that, so was it something in the lead-up to WoW that they decided they could take on human forms? This started with the exact same event that brought the Dragonflights as we know them today into existence, rather than Dragons simply being dragons - Richard Knaak's book, "Day of the Dragon". The novel in which Alexstrasza was freed, and the other three Aspects not mentioned by Beyond the Dark Portal were introduced. Not only is this the first described instance of dragons taking human form, they are shown using those human forms to infiltrate human society, some for good, some for ill. It wasn't until much later in canon that more and more dragons gradually abandoned that idea and simply use them to interact with mortals on more even terms.
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Jun 14, 2023 02:19
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sounds like Murozond was right
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Jun 14, 2023 02:22
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Canonically wow has already done the 'But how did I not forsee my defeat if I can see all possibilities?!' thing
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Jun 14, 2023 02:29
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Just Winging It posted:Eternal hellwar making you strong is either Dragon Ball logic, or fascist claptrap, and the rest of the writing really doesn't lend itself to the former. it's basically ender's game - or the satirical version, starship troopers - or its spiritual successor, pacific rim - where having your entire society dedicated to destroying the enemy is good because the enemy are big evil bugs from outer space. the part where we find out the big evil bugs from outer space are actually alright has stopped happening as much because the big evil bugs from outer space have gotten more abstract and less orc-like. the part where it's utterly unserious about it, but not particularly satirical, ends up resulting in stories that feels like the writers are tweaking a dial labeled 'the bad guys are a metaphor for something' while looking at the audience like the price is right. sometimes the metaphor is decent (death, slavery, fear, pride), sometimes it's a very vague 'the Other', and if you're unlucky it's a green guy called 'samuro' who speaks in a faux-chinese accent.
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Jun 14, 2023 02:35
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BlazetheInferno posted:This started with the exact same event that brought the Dragonflights as we know them today into existence, rather than Dragons simply being dragons - Richard Knaak's book, "Day of the Dragon". The novel in which Alexstrasza was freed, and the other three Aspects not mentioned by Beyond the Dark Portal were introduced. It also introduced Knaak's ridiculously overpowered OCs.
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Jun 14, 2023 02:41
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Good ol' Knaak "the hack"
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Jun 14, 2023 02:45
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There is no remotely good reason for WoW to present the player as complicit in maintaining the rape and enslavement of any character, ever, full stop having it happen to one of its few prominent women who have yet to be hit with their favored "she's just being hysterical!" bludgeon compounds it even more
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Jun 14, 2023 03:07
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Cythereal posted:The only direct explanation we've ever been given by the game is that if the Horde never invaded Azeroth, the human kingdoms would have warred among themselves and been too divided and weak to defeat the Legion's invasion that's coming in WC3, if they'd ever made it to Kalimdor in the first place. Good ol' shounen logic.
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Jun 14, 2023 03:57
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Aces High posted:when was it established that dragons could take on human forms? I ask because up until playing WoW (which was a really long time ago, I played about 4 months before Cataclysm and then stopped after another month or so into that expansion) I had always imagined that the dragons were just dragons. I can't think of anything in Reign of Chaos or Frozen Throne that shows dragons as anything other than that, so was it something in the lead-up to WoW that they decided they could take on human forms? I don't recall if it happened at all in warcraft 3, but it was a thing in vanilla WoW several times.
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Jun 14, 2023 04:21
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Huh, the thread blew up into this disaster of a conversation. Though honestly I guess it was kind of a matter of time given how fanatical fans can get. The cognitive dissonance in the statements was kind of real to read. My thoughts is that if Blizzard and their crew want people to stop picking at the really dumb gross bad poo poo that they've been involved in.... it'd probably help if they'd stop loading up ammunition constantly? They're basically loading the gun and passing it to people that hate them.
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Jun 14, 2023 04:21
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Keldulas posted:My thoughts is that if Blizzard and their crew want people to stop picking at the really dumb gross bad poo poo that they've been involved in.... it'd probably help if they'd stop loading up ammunition constantly? They're basically loading the gun and passing it to people that hate them. I wonder if it's just them thinking they can spin this bad plot point into something "deep' and "meaningful" and not realizing they don't have the time or talent to do so and people would be much happier seeing it retconned and forgotten. Probably the same reason why they keep going forward with the Night Elf genocide plot.
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Jun 14, 2023 04:40
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Rhonne posted:I wonder if it's just them thinking they can spin this bad plot point into something "deep' and "meaningful" and not realizing they don't have the time or talent to do so and people would be much happier seeing it retconned and forgotten. Probably the same reason why they keep going forward with the Night Elf genocide plot. It's also impossible to divorce from the context of everything Blizzard has been accused of. So even the most finely crafted story is going to be read as "please forget that we sexually harassed a woman into committing suicide  "Sometimes the wisest move is to just give up on trying to make a point through fiction until you have made visible and substantial amends IRL. EDIT: There's also the greater matter that for many observers, there is zero trust that Blizzard can maintain a direction that leads to a satisfactory conclusion, rather than, a year from now, Danuser or whoever announces that "We're putting the WAR back in WARCRAFT!" and start dropping fresh-from-the-front-pages War Crimes right next to Spongebob Squarepants memes. SirPhoebos fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Jun 14, 2023 |
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Jun 14, 2023 04:46
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the most fascinating part is that Blizzard (and WoW in specific) are no strangers to "well that was a dumb idea, never mind, please forget we set that up, thanks" hey remember that entire zone full of an ancient civilization that has endured since the Before Times, keepers of secrets beyond Azerothi comprehension, who cease being story relevant the instant you hit the level cap no not that one the other one no not that one the OTHER other one they could just choose to not bring it back up! that's an option! one they are very familiar with!
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Jun 14, 2023 05:09
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the most fascinating part is that Blizzard (and WoW in specific) are no strangers to "well that was a dumb idea, never mind, please forget we set that up, thanks" I believe a part of it is that some ideas ended up being so bad, such as the elf genocide, the three(?) instances of dragon rape dungeons or pygmies that keep getting brought up in contexts of "what were they thinking?!?!?!" that writers feel like they should do something about it while not having the skills and sensitivity to handle any of those topics, so they just end up sticking both their feet into their mouth once more.
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Jun 14, 2023 10:47
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the most fascinating part is that Blizzard (and WoW in specific) are no strangers to "well that was a dumb idea, never mind, please forget we set that up, thanks" It's this for me. Even if you don't want to go and outright decanonize the whole horrible plot point, you just kind of let it fall in the background and not mention it beyond it being part of 'atrocities committed in the past that we're trying to atone for'. It's like if Nintendo suddenly decided that it's going to double down on Mario enslaving giant apes in Donkey Kong Jr., and brought it up apropos of nothing. Instead, they've wisely just sort of moved on and just accepted that weird excuse plot as just some early game weirdness. Mario doesn't have continuity really, but it's still just a weird jarring part of the character's history. Blizzard presents: Super Mario Odyssey 2, where Mario decides he's going to capture more sentient animals and put them in cages. What do you mean this is jarring and stupid? It's part of Mario canon, you just don't understand shades of gray.
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Jun 14, 2023 11:15
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What really gets me about all of this, is that Blizzard consciously chose to write quests about this, the latest and greatest in a long parade of quests where the player characters are forced to become complicit in war crimes for story progress as central characters affirm that this is necessary and good, and these quests disproportionately target and victimize women. No one is holding a gun to Blizzard's head and making them do this (and even then, if I were in such a position, I'd strongly consider the merits of the bullet). They could have forgotten this, or written a quest where Alexstrasza in the past is replaced by an illusory decoy leaving no one the wiser and history unchanged except that Alexstrasza never went through these experiences, or any number of other possibilities. Blizzard could have written uplifting and affirming stories, or cathartic and triumphant stories. Instead they chose to write this. No one is forcing them to do this, there is no fan demand for this, they just got this idea and decided to do it. This is no one's fault but theirs.
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Jun 14, 2023 12:59
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Asehujiko posted:I believe a part of it is that some ideas ended up being so bad, such as the elf genocide, the three(?) instances of dragon rape dungeons or pygmies that keep getting brought up in contexts of "what were they thinking?!?!?!" that writers feel like they should do something about it while not having the skills and sensitivity to handle any of those topics, so they just end up sticking both their feet into their mouth once more. loving Games Workshop knows better than this, though. You don't see current 40K stories involving Sisters of Battle talking about how great it is for Grey Knights to come and butcher them to use their blood as useless face paint. No, that story has been all but excised from the lore. The more I think about this, the more likely it seems that this is the result of someone from the Cosby-Suite being upset that he no longer has free breast milk to steal.
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Jun 14, 2023 13:21
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It pales alongside the Alexstrasza quest, but there's apparently another quest along the same lines for Amber Kearnen. She was an Alliance spy and sniper who was in Vanilla and Cataclysm, but had a much bigger role in Pandaria, and was a pretty popular Alliance character. I keep saying 'was' because she was killed offscreen by a Dreadlord during the Rogue class hall questline, her body is discovered by the player with a note in her hand. She appears again in Shadowlands in Maldraxxus, but doesn't appear to do anything other than have a little bit of dialogue for Rogues. Only this new quest instead sends the player back in time to kill her, because of the usual Bronze bullshit.
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Jun 14, 2023 13:42
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Cradok posted:It pales alongside the Alexstrasza quest, but there's apparently another quest along the same lines for Amber Kearnen. She was an Alliance spy and sniper who was in Vanilla and Cataclysm, but had a much bigger role in Pandaria, and was a pretty popular Alliance character. I keep saying 'was' because she was killed offscreen by a Dreadlord during the Rogue class hall questline, her body is discovered by the player with a note in her hand. She appears again in Shadowlands in Maldraxxus, but doesn't appear to do anything other than have a little bit of dialogue for Rogues. This isn't even the usual bronze bullshit, the usual one is going back to stop the Infinite from changing the timeline. There's no Infinite to be seen so far, the timeline is just breaking.
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Jun 14, 2023 13:53
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Cradok posted:Only this new quest instead sends the player back in time to kill her, because of the usual Bronze bullshit. And yet, Chromie's quest text for that one is a lot more apologetic than the text for the Alexstrasza quest where she's making cheese jokes. 
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Jun 14, 2023 14:02
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Cythereal posted:Frankly, the weird part isn't that Thrall in modern-day WoW has children. The weird part is that most of the cast don't. Tyrande and Malfurion have one adopted daughter. Cairne has one son. Alleria and Turalyon have one son. Those three kids, and Thrall's, are it as far as children of WC1 and 2 characters are concerned (not counting the likes of Jaina and Arthas, who are major figures in WC3, or the children of Genn, Sir Not Appearing Outside The Manual in WC2). Important Lore Character kid wise Genn becomes a more major character in Cataclysm and his children are vaguely plot important in small snippets. Moria and her child are important throughout various parts of modern WoW but I don't THINK the major dwarves really get a mention until WC3 and even then its only the one dwarf... uhh. I think that's about it actually yea. I guess heroes generally don't have time to have kids. Or bad poo poo happens to them, RIP Saurfang the Younger.
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Jun 14, 2023 14:41
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Gridlocked posted:Important Lore Character kid wise Genn becomes a more major character in Cataclysm and his children are vaguely plot important in small snippets. At this point, Genn treats Anduin more like his child than his real daughter. I think the most he ever really talks about her is when he's talking about how great it would be if she married Anduin.
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Jun 14, 2023 14:50
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The way WoW has had its timeline gradually shift over expansions probably contributes to that. A child character really needs to be at least ten or so to be able to start being relevant, so you need to establish that child existing for all that lead-up time before they can start doing anything. That requires a lot of forward planning! There's no big time skips that let you just slot a kid into the story and say, hey, Jaina had children at some point, you have to go through the whole story of her starting a family.
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Jun 14, 2023 14:51
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Rhonne posted:At this point, Genn treats Anduin more like his child than his real daughter. I think the most he ever really talks about her is when he's talking about how great it would be if she married Anduin. One rare bit of WoW writing from the last few years I genuinely think is good and well-written is Tess taking her father to task for fixating on Anduin like he's a replacement for Liam (Genn's son and heir, murdered by Sylvanas) and completely neglecting his other child, never noticing that she's been trying for years to earn her father's attention and make herself ready for the day she'll take the throne of Gilneas as queen. Leading her to all but slap Genn in the face and remind him that he had two children, and Tess is not going to marry Anduin, thank you very much. I like Genn a lot as a character. He's deeply flawed in very human ways without being CORRUPTED, also has some very human virtues, and in my eyes is a very rare example of a genuinely ambiguous character in Warcraft who's done both good and bad without ever getting tied up in cosmic forces and CORRUPTION or REDEMPTION.
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Jun 14, 2023 14:58
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I like Genn enough, as much as I think he was an incompetent rear end king.
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Jun 14, 2023 15:04
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Rhonne posted:At this point, Genn treats Anduin more like his child than his real daughter. I think the most he ever really talks about her is when he's talking about how great it would be if she married Anduin. Cmon we all know Anduin and Wrathion gonna be an item - except Wrathion is busy atm being a dragon, and Anduin is uh in self-imposed exile in super-Hell. Cause you know apparently in Warcraft the High King can take a few years leave of absence from his job for dealing with his mental health, that's nice I guess? Cythereal posted:I like Genn a lot as a character. He's deeply flawed in very human ways without being CORRUPTED, also has some very human virtues, and in my eyes is a very rare example of a genuinely ambiguous character in Warcraft who's done both good and bad without ever getting tied up in cosmic forces and CORRUPTION or REDEMPTION. I like that Genn goes from being the haughty isolationist king to a refugee with a bunch of Elves he's literally never heard of within a short span of time. And further the plot line for this is a loving cool Victorian Werewolf In London plot which goes into a zombie apocalypse in a very Pride & Prejudice & Zombies feel. It's jank AF to play now days but still neat in concept. Also Genn goes from being again the haughty king to front line werewolf because gently caress it if you get to be a magical werewolf you may as well swing those powers. Gridlocked fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Jun 14, 2023 |
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Jun 14, 2023 15:06
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Oh my, I was offline for a few days, I wonder what happened in my favourite LP? Over 100 posts, must be something good. ...jesus loving christ...
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Jun 14, 2023 15:10
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Siegkrow posted:I like Genn enough, as much as I think he was an incompetent rear end king. Sounds pretty true to the reality of kings then.
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Jun 14, 2023 20:23
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Who was the best king anyway in Warcraft (I guess titles like Warchief would work too).
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Jun 14, 2023 20:53
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ApplesandOranges posted:Who was the best king anyway in Warcraft (I guess titles like Warchief would work too). Terenas Menethil rests at a convergence of "got screen time" and "didn't do anything extraordinarily evil and/or stupid" that i'm pretty sure no other major leader can match Cairne Bloodhoof would be a candidate if he'd done a single thing between the mission he gets introduced in warcraft 3 and the moment the WoW writers killed him off
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Jun 14, 2023 21:24
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Magni "WOONZ" Bronzebeard didn't do anything wrong until BFA, where he did everything wrong
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Jun 14, 2023 21:32
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Jen X posted:Magni "WOONZ" Bronzebeard didn't do anything wrong until BFA Moira would like a word with you
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Jun 14, 2023 21:34
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BlazetheInferno posted:Moira would like a word with you being a bad dad doesn't make you a bad king
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Jun 14, 2023 21:39
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Spurning a political alliance with a nation you've had troubled relations with, an alliance that would have been easy through an already done marriage, by assassinating a foreign head of state for hanging around with your daughter is a bit of a political gaff on top of the fathering gaff.
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Jun 14, 2023 21:46
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:Terenas Menethil rests at a convergence of "got screen time" and "didn't do anything extraordinarily evil and/or stupid" that i'm pretty sure no other major leader can match I think keeping the Grimtotem around is a knock against Cairne, it was basically a 'when will you get backstabbed, not if'.
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Jun 14, 2023 21:56
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FoolyCharged posted:Spurning a political alliance with a nation you've had troubled relations with, an alliance that would have been easy through an already done marriage, by assassinating a foreign head of state for hanging around with your daughter is a bit of a political gaff on top of the fathering gaff. Well, said daughter was abducted by said head of state initially.
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Jun 14, 2023 22:02
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:Terenas Menethil rests at a convergence of "got screen time" and "didn't do anything extraordinarily evil and/or stupid" that i'm pretty sure no other major leader can match Probably Terenas, I'd agree. Maybe King Llane, who was apparently a decent king but was betrayed and taken by surprise on a lot of things including that knife between his ribs.
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Jun 14, 2023 22:06
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ApplesandOranges posted:Who was the best king anyway in Warcraft (I guess titles like Warchief would work too). Terenas managed to rule his kingdom for half a century without noticeable fuckups other than raising Arthas, which puts him at least in top 3 of Warcraft rulers. Competent, non-evil kings in fiction exist mostly either to be ruthlessly killed and mourned or to reclaim kingdom they lost.
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Jun 14, 2023 22:08
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