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Oxyclean posted:I don't think he can deny he had the boxes at this point, so isn't the legal battle more about if he was allowed to have them / what he was allowed to do with them? I think the best he can do is call the whole case a hoax, a travesty, total bullshit, and never ever even once utter a single word about documents. But he already hosed that up
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Jun 14, 2023 03:46
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mutata posted:Maybe Jan 6 was all of them.
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Jun 14, 2023 04:44
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Oxyclean posted:I don't think he can deny he had the boxes at this point, so isn't the legal battle more about if he was allowed to have them / what he was allowed to do with them? Wasn’t he posting pictures claiming it was the feds setting up the boxes to frame him at one point or was that a fever dream?
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Jun 14, 2023 04:47
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:Wasn’t he posting pictures claiming it was the feds setting up the boxes to frame him at one point or was that a fever dream? He definitely claimed he was framed by the FBI at some point.
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Jun 14, 2023 04:57
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:Wasn’t he posting pictures claiming it was the feds setting up the boxes to frame him at one point or was that a fever dream? He's going to change his story 80 times and pretend he never said any of the thing he repeatedly said. I recently was trolling through conservative media outlets to see how they were responding to all of this and this one from National Review was good for what it was - the line that stuck with me was: quote:“Caught on tape destroying the legal argument he has been content to farm out to his loudest defenders for months: That’s our Trump.”
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Jun 14, 2023 05:17
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:Wasn’t he posting pictures claiming it was the feds setting up the boxes to frame him at one point or was that a fever dream? He was saying the evidence photos released after the search warrant were staged while admitting he had documents that were declassified.
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Jun 14, 2023 06:26
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The thing is, he is actually proud of owning classified documents. He thinks it makes him cool. So he will never, ever deny that. He'll only deny the parts that aren't cool, like storing them messily.
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Jun 14, 2023 06:39
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Trump will give contradictory answers as he has always done. Usually in the same reply. Crap like it isn't illegal for a ln ex president to take classified documents and what about Biden who did the same but that was a crime because it is illegal and I took those documents which I didn't take because I can. One thing though, even as he denies and admits in the same breath, is that I don't think he has ever said why he took the documents in the first place (besides the fact that he can).
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Jun 14, 2023 07:06
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Does Trump not have lawyers.
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Jun 14, 2023 08:54
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Law guy on I think CNN earlier was saying that all the information now made public makes it inconceivable that there is an effective defense here, and that Trump's only play to wriggle out of this one is to see the trial drag on long enough that he wins in 2024 before it concludes, after which he can try things like ordering the DoJ to drop it or pardon himself, none of which is certain to work but which is really the only thing that might. I'm not seeing many people claiming that, in purely legal terms, he's anything but Ultra-hosed.Madkal posted:Trump will give contradictory answers as he has always done. Usually in the same reply. Crap like it isn't illegal for a ln ex president to take classified documents and what about Biden who did the same but that was a crime because it is illegal and I took those documents which I didn't take because I can. He apparently offered a reason just today at his little Bedminster speech (Possibly the most low energy I have ever seen the man. Sad!). He claims that the boxes were also full of personal effects like "shirts" and "shoes" and that he intended to sort through it all but never found the time because he's a super busy guy. It's very very funny to me that he keeps offering defenses that are... not defenses. None of this poo poo matters, it would have mattered if he'd played ball as soon as someone said "Uh hey you got some of those secret documents down in Mar-a-Lago?", because nobody wants the hassle of a whole trial of a former and possible future President - he could have said some poo poo like that to save face, handed the documents back, and that would almost certainly have been the end of the affair.
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Jun 14, 2023 08:55
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not a law understander but it is interesting seeing actual law understanders being unusually unequivocal about how absolutely hosed trump is on a facts-of-the-case level.
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Jun 14, 2023 08:59
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Ms Adequate posted:Law guy on I think CNN earlier was saying that all the information now made public makes it inconceivable that there is an effective defense here, and that Trump's only play to wriggle out of this one is to see the trial drag on long enough that he wins in 2024 before it concludes, after which he can try things like ordering the DoJ to drop it or pardon himself, none of which is certain to work but which is really the only thing that might. I'm not seeing many people claiming that, in purely legal terms, he's anything but Ultra-hosed. This is basically the Berlusconi/Netanyahu playbook at this point.
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Jun 14, 2023 09:04
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Herstory Begins Now posted:not a law understander but it is interesting seeing actual law understanders being unusually unequivocal about how absolutely hosed trump is on a facts-of-the-case level. Well, the reason for this is traditionally, you don't get people using the exact magical words to screw yourself over. Normally, you have to rely on circumstantial evidence or evidence from other people to get convictions . Having people confess normally only happens when there is some duress or they don't realize they are being recorded. Then there is Trump and we'll (points to current Thread Title.)
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Jun 14, 2023 09:46
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Name Change posted:This is basically the Berlusconi/Netanyahu playbook at this point. yeah and how'd that work out for berlusconi
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Jun 14, 2023 09:49
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WaltherFeng posted:Does Trump not have lawyers. He usually does, but he doesn't listen to them. He think lawyers exist to clean up his messes, not to tell him what to do to so he won't be in a mess. And then the lawyers quit because you really don't want a client doing that. Rinse and repeat. The Question IRL posted:Well, the reason for this is traditionally, you don't get people using the exact magical words to screw yourself over. Normally, you have to rely on circumstantial evidence or evidence from other people to get convictions . Having people confess normally only happens when there is some duress or they don't realize they are being recorded. Specifically, a lot of crimes require "intent" as in the person has to know that what they are doing is wrong, but they're going to do it anyway. As in, it's not an innocent misunderstanding. So in this case for example, he might need to know that the documents are classified and that he shouldn't show them to people. This kind of thing is infamously hard to prove because most people don't go around saying "I really shouldn't be showing you these, but I'm showing them to you." Trump is not most people.
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Jun 14, 2023 09:53
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Google Jeb Bush posted:yeah and how'd that work out for berlusconi Well, he hung on like a cockroach for nearly 20 years until the bills came due, sooo
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Jun 14, 2023 09:55
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https://twitter.com/cwebbonline/status/1668669866314969088
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Jun 14, 2023 10:28
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Clarste posted:He usually does, but he doesn't listen to them. He think lawyers exist to clean up his messes, not to tell him what to do to so he won't be in a mess. And then the lawyers quit because you really don't want a client doing that. Rinse and repeat. It's just incredible stuff. He'd have at least a sliver of a chance if he could argue that the documents were declassified, or that he honestly thought he was entitled to them, or that he believed for one reason or another he was empowered to show them to others, or if he could say he instructed his staff/attorneys to comply with instructions to return them, and he has been caught out explicitly saying that every single one of those things is untrue. Even if it didn't get him off, it's possible that some of those angles could have at least seriously helped him out when it comes to sentencing.
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Jun 14, 2023 10:48
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I didn't think the real justice system worked like the immune system of Mr Burns
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Jun 14, 2023 11:48
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The secret is just to keep committing crimes.
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Jun 14, 2023 11:55
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Clarste posted:Specifically, a lot of crimes require "intent" as in the person has to know that what they are doing is wrong, but they're going to do it anyway. As in, it's not an innocent misunderstanding. So in this case for example, he might need to know that the documents are classified and that he shouldn't show them to people. This kind of thing is infamously hard to prove because most people don't go around saying "I really shouldn't be showing you these, but I'm showing them to you." Trump is not most people. He literally did the "I am handing you this big bag of money with a dollar sign on it as a bribe" thing you have to do to actually get convicted of bribery. Except for state secrets instead of bribery. If he was a regular person, dozens of federal agents would have dragged him out of bed at gunpoint.
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Jun 14, 2023 12:19
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Ms Adequate posted:It's just incredible stuff. He'd have at least a sliver of a chance if he could argue that the documents were declassified, or that he honestly thought he was entitled to them, or that he believed for one reason or another he was empowered to show them to others, or if he could say he instructed his staff/attorneys to comply with instructions to return them, and he has been caught out explicitly saying that every single one of those things is untrue. Even if it didn't get him off, it's possible that some of those angles could have at least seriously helped him out when it comes to sentencing. I'm still finding it difficult to believe that he's on tape torpedoing all of his own possible defenses. After getting way with poo poo for decades by refusing to use email or put anything in writing... he just
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Jun 14, 2023 12:25
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Nm
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Jun 14, 2023 12:39
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Gort posted:I didn't think the real justice system worked like the immune system of Mr Burns 
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Jun 14, 2023 12:42
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ONE SMALL TRICK THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW Just commit a federal crime and you can do regular crimes!
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Jun 14, 2023 12:48
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It's cool that he gets to just walk out no problem and immediately hold events and talk about how it's all a witch hunt and whatever and we all just have to say "yep, its good. justice is manifest" Did they even take the secrets away?
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Jun 14, 2023 12:49
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projecthalaxy posted:It's cool that he gets to just walk out no problem and immediately hold events and talk about how it's all a witch hunt and whatever and we all just have to say "yep, its good. justice is manifest" According to the podcasts I've listened to, one of the problems is that the feds aren't sure if they have all the secret documents. They literally don't know.
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Jun 14, 2023 12:50
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projecthalaxy posted:It's cool that he gets to just walk out no problem and immediately hold events and talk about how it's all a witch hunt and whatever and we all just have to say "yep, its good. justice is manifest" The government should generally not hold people who have not been convicted yet who aren't flight risks, likely to recommit, or a danger to the public. And yes, the secret documents are in the government's custody now.
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Jun 14, 2023 12:52
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Nitrousoxide posted:The government should generally not hold people who have not been convicted yet who aren't flight risks, likely to recommit, or a danger to the public. Not all the missing documents have been recovered yet, no. Many boxes went to Bedminster and after that haven't been found. Donald Trump is absolutely a flight risk, it's trivially true, he owns his own plane and multiple international properties. Arguing otherwise is laughable. He's a danger to the public both because he has repeatedly incited violence and because there remain unrecovered classified documents which he might still share or reveal while out on bond.(edit: also because dude might open his big fat mouth and share classified info that's in his head). He's a flight risk and a danger if any espionage act defendant has ever been. The only reason bond was not denied is that he's a presidential candidate. Let's not pretend otherwise. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Jun 14, 2023 |
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Jun 14, 2023 13:02
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Nitrousoxide posted:The government should generally not hold people who have not been convicted yet who aren't flight risks, likely to recommit, or a danger to the public. While yes, until the government is willing to extend this courtesy to all people and not only rich people, I feel pretty comfortable staying we should put them in the slammer.
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Jun 14, 2023 13:03
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Boris Galerkin posted:According to the podcasts I've listened to, one of the problems is that the feds aren't sure if they have all the secret documents. They literally don't know. Do they not track these super secret documents?
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Jun 14, 2023 13:07
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Not all the missing documents have been recovered yet, no. Many boxes went to Bedminster and after that haven't been found. hmm. apparently not, it seems
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Jun 14, 2023 13:07
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smackfu posted:Do they not track these super secret documents? I mean, normally, yes, but when the President starts moving box truck quantities around based on personal whim, poo poo gets mixed up. That's why these are crimes! A number of documents do remain missing and it's unclear what happened to them. They might have been destroyed, or stolen, or given away, or Trump may be hiding them elsewhere, most likely Bedminster. https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/1668648883713392642?s=20
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Jun 14, 2023 13:10
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smackfu posted:Do they not track these super secret documents? It was the Trump administration. Tracking was "gently caress you I don't want to".
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Jun 14, 2023 13:11
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I don't understand why they haven't raided it yet. Either they are still there, or someone else moved them. Because there's no way Trump himself carried a single box. I guess maybe the Valet moved them or disposed of them?
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Jun 14, 2023 13:16
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Was the co-defendant also released on bail instead of being turbofucked and kept in jail because of the whole espionage thing? He's not rich or anything so I'm kinda wondering why he's free to walk.
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Jun 14, 2023 13:27
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Not all the missing documents have been recovered yet, no. Many boxes went to Bedminster and after that haven't been found. It's strongly arguable that the Secret Service would stop him from leaving the country, even on his own plane. The Biden administration all but admitted that they ensured his protective detail was staffed with chuds.
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Jun 14, 2023 13:29
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One of the running subplots of the Trump administration was the Looney Tunes-like struggle between administration officials from Trump on down just freely shoving documents into toilets, ripping them up, and otherwise destroying them and the hapless archivists and records managers doing their level best to keep track of it all while gluing the shreds back together in a White House closet.
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Jun 14, 2023 13:34
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Boris Galerkin posted:Was the co-defendant also released on bail instead of being turbofucked and kept in jail because of the whole espionage thing? He's not rich or anything so I'm kinda wondering why he's free to walk. His arraignment hasn't happened yet because he can't find a lawyer yet.
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Jun 14, 2023 13:40
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V-Men posted:It's strongly arguable that the Secret Service would stop him from leaving the country, even on his own plane. The Biden administration all but admitted that they ensured his protective detail was staffed with chuds. Theoretically, but the criteria is flight risk. People have evaded their security details before.
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Jun 14, 2023 13:41
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