[Modern History] Guns Condoms and Electricity

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Modern History] Guns Condoms and Electricity

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

from "A War of Logistics"

quote:

The concept of Operation LEA was that of a three-pronged advance converging on the center of the objective area around the town of Bac Kan.

Groupement S, consisting of two parachute infantry battalions (twelve hundred men) under Lieutenant Colonel Henri Sauvagnac and reinforced by an airborne engineer platoon and an airborne surgical team, was to initiate the operation with a parachute assault on Bac Kan and the nearby villages of Cho Don (twelve miles west) and Cho Moi (twenty miles south).

The main effort was to be conducted along a northern axis of advance by Groupement B, commanded by Colonel Andr� Beaufre. Groupement B, a strong motorized ground element that included the 5th Moroccan Rifle Regiment (three infantry battalions), half (three armored squadrons) of the Moroccan Colonial Infantry Regiment, an artillery group (three battalions), an engineer battalion, and a transportation battalion, was to move by road from Lang Son northwest along RC 4 to link up with a parachute infantry battalion (not part of Groupement S) to be dropped at Cao Bang. From Cao Bang Groupement B would move southwest via Nguyen Binh to link up with Groupement S at Bac Kan, 140 miles from Lang Son. The third element, Groupement C, commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Pierre Communal, was to be an amphibious force consisting of three infantry battalions and two artillery batteries transported by three Dinassauts. This force was to move aboard landing craft from Hanoi up the Red and Clear Rivers to Tuyen Quang and then up the Gam River to Chiem Hoa, and thence overland to attack the Bac Kan area from the south and west.

Operation LEA eventually involved nearly sixty thousand French Union troops, including three parachute infantry battalions, most of the French air forces in Indochina, and several small naval detachments.

...

The Viet Minh forces in the objective area probably did not exceed fifty thousand men but included the bulk of the regular forces in the process of formation and training as well as nearly all of the Viet Minh leadership and trained staff, administrative personnel, and logistical forces. These forces were familiar with the area of operations and well-prepared to conduct an all-around defense on ground of their own choosing amid their own supply dumps.

...

The original date for the beginning of Operation LEA was October 1, 1947, but the operation had to be postponed to October 7 in order to complete the assembly of Groupement B. Despite the prospect of a typhoon, the French airborne elements conducted a well-executed parachute assault on the three villages of Bac Kan, Cho Don, and Cho Moi on the morning of October 7. Another parachute infantry battalion, the 1st Battalion, Provisional Parachute Half-Brigade (1e Bataillon de la Demi-Brigade de Marche Parachutiste, 1e Bn, DBMP), was dropped on Cao Bang on October 9. At Bac Kan the paras narrowly missed capturing Ho Chi Minh and General Giap, who fled from their headquarters, leaving the papers on which they were working laying on the table.36 They did, however, succeed in capturing the main Viet Minh radio broadcasting station and large stores of food and munitions. Despite the initial shock of the parachute assault, the Viet Minh quickly recovered, and by the third day of the operation they had regrouped and surrounded the paras, who were forced to conduct an all-around defense while awaiting the arrival of Groupements B and C.

The mechanized ground element, Groupement B, was divided into five subgroups and included two battalions of Moroccans prepared to follow the main column mounted on mules. The column departed Lang Son on October 7 and intended to move forward twenty-four hours per day, with the subgroups leapfrogging one another. However, the road-bound forces of Groupement B quickly found their progress along RC 4 slowed by Viet Minh delaying operations. Bridges and culverts were destroyed, trees were felled into the roadway, harassing attacks were made, and the heavy French forces, lacking off-road mobility, found themselves slowed to a snail�s pace. Unable to deploy his available infantry and firepower to maximum advantage, Colonel Beaufre repeatedly had to halt and deploy his forces to clear obstructions and Viet Minh ambush sites. Consequently, the mechanized column took six days to cover 130 miles along the narrow roads before being halted altogether by a determined Viet Minh stand just ten miles north of Bac Kan on October 13. It was not until the early afternoon of October 16, following a hard three-day fight, that Colonel Beaufre�s column linked up with Lieutenant Colonel Savagnac�s paras eleven miles north of Bac Kan.

The amphibious element, Groupement C, also found the going slow. Encountering sandbars and other obstructions, the boats moved slowly up the Red and Clear Rivers. When one Dinassaut ran aground only nine miles from Hanoi, Lieutenant Colonel Communal decided to continue his mission with the remaining two Dinassauts. The reduced force reached Phu Doan on October 12 and Tuyen Quang the next day. One of Communal�s three infantry battalions, a light commando battalion, was immediately dispatched up the Gam River, but after traveling nineteen difficult miles the troops had to disembark and continue their march overland. They reached Chiem Hoa on October 17. The onward march toward Bac Kan had to be made at a pace much too slow to trap the alert and mobile Viet Minh, who escaped to the northwest, and it was not until October 19 that the amphibious element linked up the paras and mechanized column south of Bac Kan.

Following the link-up on October 19 and until November 10, the French Union forces engaged in Operation LEA proceeded to harrow the Viet Minh stronghold, destroying the enemy�s forces and seizing his command posts, depots, and radio installations. The newly won positions at Cao Bang, Bac Kan, Cho Moi, Tuyen Quang, and Chiem Hoa were secured, as were the lines of communication along RC 4, RC 3, RC 3 bis, and the Clear River, and political action was set in motion to win over the local Tho population to the French side.

The costs of Operation LEA were high, and the results were less than expected. The Viet Minh leadership was neither killed nor captured, and although Viet Minh communications with the Chinese Communists were temporarily inconvenienced, they were by no means cut off.

a daring airborne assault that's to be relieved by a motorized spearhead, that gets bogged down by the mobile units being unable to operate well along narrow roads? where have I heard that one before???

# ? May 30, 2023 08:27

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# ? May 24, 2024 18:12

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011; Can't post for 5 hours!

https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1666869736150319104

# ? Jun 8, 2023 21:06

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011; Can't post for 5 hours!

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1667683571367018498

extremely funny how trump accidentally validates the current hip hagiography that the reconstruction era should be interpreted as the insurgency period of the civil war and not a completely different thing

# ? Jun 11, 2023 01:53

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

While they were allies, Hitler invited Stalin to a big diplomatic summit in Berlin. Stalin sent Molotov, November 1940. The whole thing was totally pointless but I enjoyed this sassy Molotov anecdote.

quote:

That evening, Molotov hosted a farewell reception at the Soviet embassy. Unsurprisingly, in view of the unpleasant three-and-a-half-hour grilling Hitler had endured from Molotov�never, Hitler�s translator recalled, �had any foreign visitor spoken to him like this before��the F�hrer declined to attend, although Ribbentrop, G�ring, and Hess did join the large Soviet delegation for drinks. Lubricated by vodka and caviar, the party was just starting to liven up when the Royal Air Force was again heard overhead. Trying to put a brave face on, Ribbentrop joked, after everyone was safely underground, that �our British friends are complaining that they have not been invited to the party.� In reality, he tried wanly to reassure Molotov, Britain was �finished.� If that was the case, Molotov is said to have retorted, �then why are we in this shelter and whose bombs are falling on us?�

# ? Jun 11, 2023 17:13

Endman: May 18, 2010; That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

While they were allies, Hitler invited Stalin to a big diplomatic summit in Berlin. Stalin sent Molotov, November 1940. The whole thing was totally pointless but I enjoyed this sassy Molotov anecdote.

dudes rock

# ? Jun 12, 2023 00:07

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

Some Guy TT posted:

extremely funny how trump accidentally validates the current hip hagiography that the reconstruction era should be interpreted as the insurgency period of the civil war and not a completely different thing

How many Americans do you think know what the reconstruction era was? Trump has a wonderful way of explaining things to people with less intelligence or less education, and dumbocrats think it means he is stupid.

# ? Jun 12, 2023 00:28

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011; Can't post for 5 hours!

https://twitter.com/nick_field90/status/1669142259281928192

# ? Jun 15, 2023 02:32

HootTheOwl: May 13, 2012; Hootin and shootin

Some Guy TT posted:

https://twitter.com/nick_field90/status/1669142259281928192

Biden: Hold my cone.

Seriously, without covid how is this guy going to win?

# ? Jun 15, 2023 14:34

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

trump will be trapped in court or jail and the rest of GOP candidates are even bigger clowns than Biden

# ? Jun 15, 2023 15:29

Tungsten: Aug 10, 2004; Your Working Boy

yep, the walls are closing in. more isolated than ever. there's no way he can wriggle his way out of this one

# ? Jun 15, 2023 15:33

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

lol all dems need to do to get big turnout is gesture vaguely at trump, they've done it for the last 3 cycles and they'll do it again and the dumbasses will dutifully pull the lever for the lesser senile rapist.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 15:52

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011; Can't post for 5 hours!

its actually a way more interesting video than that tweet makes it sound so im just gonna link it direct

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5VlA7C3Bz0

most of it is actually about the iran hostage crisis and its wild how despite everyones best efforts irans demands sound extremely reasonable to the point it seems like we were the ones who started the fight by doing that stuff in the first place

its also a personal tape recording so its got COMMERCIALS OF THE ANCIENT PAST including a subaru ad at 10:39 advertising some weird rear end feature to prevent your clutch from rolling down a hill that i still dont understand what it does or how it works

# ? Jun 15, 2023 15:57

HerraS: Apr 15, 2012; Looking professional when committing genocide is essential. This is mostly achieved by using a beret.

Olive drab colour ensures the genocider will remain hidden from his prey until it's too late for them to do anything.

Some Guy TT posted:

its also a personal tape recording so its got COMMERCIALS OF THE ANCIENT PAST including a subaru ad at 10:39 advertising some weird rear end feature to prevent your clutch from rolling down a hill that i still dont understand what it does or how it works

it keeps the brakes on when you come to a full stop on a steep enough hill so you can work the gas and clutch pedals, the brakes are released when the clutch gets to the friction point

# ? Jun 15, 2023 21:10

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

Hill start assist in the 80's is genuinely an amazing technical achievement, it was probably pretty rubbish in practice though

# ? Jun 15, 2023 21:58

500excf type r: Mar 7, 2013; I'm as annoying as the high-pitched whine of my motorcycle, desperately compensating for the lack of substance in my life.

Subaru still has the best hill assist I've ever had in any car because it can be shut off.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 22:01

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011; Can't post for 5 hours!

500excf type r posted:

Subaru still has the best hill assist I've ever had in any car because it can be shut off.

features you can shut off??? get the gently caress outta here with that twentieth century mindset

# ? Jun 15, 2023 22:03

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/gayest_tone/status/1670158195707240449

I remembered that there was a new book about this topic, so I looked it up.

"Endless Holocausts: Mass Death in the History of the United States Empire", by David Michael Smith

he breaks it up into multiple chapters spanning as early as 1492 (yes, that does predate the formation of the United States as a recognized independent nation), but I skipped ahead to "The Holocausts of Pax Americana I"

I'm sure others will dispute the culpability over things like the Khmer Rouge, and attributing everyone who ever died in the latter half of the Chinese Civil War to the United States because they propped up the government of Jiang Jieshi, but if one were as loose at assigning blame as the folks behind the Black Book of Communism, well, there's your number.

The next chapter, on "The Holocausts of Pax Americana II", starts counting from 1980 to 2020. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan alone are noted as having been responsible for two million deaths, with another nine million from interventions and proxy wars in Angola, Mozambique, Rwanda, Democratic Republic of Congo, and Syria, and then another five million in Sudan, South Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, and Nigeria, with the author asserting a grand total of 25 million over these four most recent decades, or 54 million since the end of the Second World War.

# ? Jun 18, 2023 07:43

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

gradenko_2000 posted:

I'm sure others will dispute the culpability over things like the Khmer Rouge, and attributing everyone who ever died in the latter half of the Chinese Civil War to the United States because they propped up the government of Jiang Jieshi, but if one were as loose at assigning blame as the folks behind the Black Book of Communism, well, there's your number.

Doesn't the Black Book of Communism also include people who didn't die - just failed to be born? Abortions in the US alone would come out to like 50 million since 1945, and then you have the more theoretical "Well, they'd have more babies if their society allowed for it" figure.

They've got quite a way up to match the Black Book of British Imperialism though, which IIRC comes out to like 700 million in India alone if you look at lost life years.

# ? Jun 18, 2023 10:05

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/gayest_tone/status/1670158195707240449

I remembered that there was a new book about this topic, so I looked it up.

"Endless Holocausts: Mass Death in the History of the United States Empire", by David Michael Smith

he breaks it up into multiple chapters spanning as early as 1492 (yes, that does predate the formation of the United States as a recognized independent nation), but I skipped ahead to "The Holocausts of Pax Americana I"

I'm sure others will dispute the culpability over things like the Khmer Rouge, and attributing everyone who ever died in the latter half of the Chinese Civil War to the United States because they propped up the government of Jiang Jieshi, but if one were as loose at assigning blame as the folks behind the Black Book of Communism, well, there's your number.

The next chapter, on "The Holocausts of Pax Americana II", starts counting from 1980 to 2020. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan alone are noted as having been responsible for two million deaths, with another nine million from interventions and proxy wars in Angola, Mozambique, Rwanda, Democratic Republic of Congo, and Syria, and then another five million in Sudan, South Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, and Nigeria, with the author asserting a grand total of 25 million over these four most recent decades, or 54 million since the end of the Second World War.

We can split hairs over specific culpability for this or that all we want but even a more conservative academic estimate from Paul Thomas Chamberlin's The Cold War's Killing Fields figures that 14 million people died in armed conflict during the Cold War, and the large majority of those weren't in wars waged by the Soviet Union. That's about the same number of people as died in WWI, but idiots still think of the Cold War as a time of peace because not very many white Europeans shot each other.

# ? Jun 18, 2023 14:07

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

vyelkin posted:

We can split hairs over specific culpability for this or that all we want but even a more conservative academic estimate from Paul Thomas Chamberlin's The Cold War's Killing Fields figures that 14 million people died in armed conflict during the Cold War, and the large majority of those weren't in wars waged by the Soviet Union. That's about the same number of people as died in WWI, but idiots still think of the Cold War as a time of peace because not very many white Europeans shot each other.

I mean, the Cold War lasted about ten times as long as WW1, and the average population was about twice that of the world during WW1. If you're comparing the Cold War to WW1, the Cold War does come out looking pretty chill, with a 95% reduction in death per capita per year. If you compare it to WW2, it's more than 98%.

Of course comparing just the periods with world wars against a decades probably isn't the fairest comparison, but then you really should be comparing like 1900-1947 with 1947-1992. Where just looking at WW1 and WW2, the Cold War represents more than a 90% drop in per capita deaths. Which seems good enough to earn the moniker? Not like it was only white Europeans not getting killed as much, like 30 million of the early 20th century combat deaths are Chinese and Japanese alone.

# ? Jun 18, 2023 17:16

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Probably a closer comparison would be like 1814-1914, between the Napoleonic wars and the world wars. Which afaik were more violent than the post ww2 period. But also there's two distinct questions here: the question of "is the modern period after the cold war less violent than similar periods in the past" doesn't mean the cold war was peaceful in absolute terms or that American hegemony is Good, Actually. It might be true that the economic consequences of the industrial revolution and the world wars, along with their resulting cultural shifts, make wars more dangerous and less rewarding; thus leading to a reduction in general violence- but that's gonna be cold comfort to the millions that died anyway

# ? Jun 18, 2023 17:25

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

StashAugustine posted:

Probably a closer comparison would be like 1814-1914, between the Napoleonic wars and the world wars. Which afaik were more violent than the post ww2 period. But also there's two distinct questions here: the question of "is the modern period after the cold war less violent than similar periods in the past" doesn't mean the cold war was peaceful in absolute terms or that American hegemony is Good, Actually. It might be true that the economic consequences of the industrial revolution and the world wars, along with their resulting cultural shifts, make wars more dangerous and less rewarding; thus leading to a reduction in general violence- but that's gonna be cold comfort to the millions that died anyway

Alternatively, if we're critiquing naming, La Belle �poque specifically. At least the Cold War still has war in its name.

# ? Jun 18, 2023 17:53

Animal-Mother: Feb 14, 2012; RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT

Some Guy TT posted:

its actually a way more interesting video than that tweet makes it sound so im just gonna link it direct

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5VlA7C3Bz0

most of it is actually about the iran hostage crisis and its wild how despite everyones best efforts irans demands sound extremely reasonable to the point it seems like we were the ones who started the fight by doing that stuff in the first place

its also a personal tape recording so its got COMMERCIALS OF THE ANCIENT PAST including a subaru ad at 10:39 advertising some weird rear end feature to prevent your clutch from rolling down a hill that i still dont understand what it does or how it works

I love old TV. Everybody seemed more human.

edit: not Reagan though, that loving ghoul

And there's a commercial for a rug. A RUG.

Animal-Mother has issued a correction as of 22:59 on Jun 18, 2023

# ? Jun 18, 2023 21:12

samcarsten: Sep 13, 2022; by vyelkin

saw Anthony Beevor has a book out on the Russian Revolution. Is it any good?

# ? Jun 23, 2023 21:11

John Charity Spring: Nov 4, 2009; SCREEEEE

samcarsten posted:

saw Anthony Beevor has a book out on the Russian Revolution. Is it any good?

none of his other books are so I don't know why he'd change his habits now

# ? Jun 23, 2023 21:13

MeatwadIsGod: Sep 30, 2004; Foretold by Gyromancy

samcarsten posted:

saw Anthony Beevor has a book out on the Russian Revolution. Is it any good?

Just read Laura Engelstein or Alexander Rabinowitch op

# ? Jun 23, 2023 21:20

samcarsten: Sep 13, 2022; by vyelkin

John Charity Spring posted:

none of his other books are so I don't know why he'd change his habits now

wait, why don't you like his books?

# ? Jun 23, 2023 21:56

HerraS: Apr 15, 2012; Looking professional when committing genocide is essential. This is mostly achieved by using a beret.

Olive drab colour ensures the genocider will remain hidden from his prey until it's too late for them to do anything.

Beevor uses every opportunity in his books to tell you how the Soviets were actually just as bad as the Nazis and that not all Germans were bad. He sucks. Can only imagine what dribble a book on the Russian Revolution by him would be.

# ? Jun 24, 2023 01:47

samcarsten: Sep 13, 2022; by vyelkin

HerraS posted:

Beevor uses every opportunity in his books to tell you how the Soviets were actually just as bad as the Nazis and that not all Germans were bad. He sucks. Can only imagine what dribble a book on the Russian Revolution by him would be.

I have a number of his books and cannot remember any instances of him praising the germans. he does seem to hate stalin, though, but who doesn't?

# ? Jun 24, 2023 04:45

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC0Om8v8H7g

# ? Jun 24, 2023 04:53

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

samcarsten posted:

I have a number of his books and cannot remember any instances of him praising the germans. he does seem to hate stalin, though, but who doesn't?

I love Stalin. He was awesome. One of my all time faves. A personal hero who I try and emulate. Much like all right minded people of refinement and taste.

E: watched the video yet again. gently caress yeah Stalin!

Weka has issued a correction as of 12:23 on Jun 24, 2023

# ? Jun 24, 2023 12:18

John Charity Spring: Nov 4, 2009; SCREEEEE

samcarsten posted:

wait, why don't you like his books?

the only one I've read in full was Stalingrad and it very much whitewashes the Germans and takes a clean-wehrmacht stance, talking up Soviet war crimes but glossing over the German ones and even trying to argue that the Germans treated their Ukrainian HIWI auxiliaries well and got on with them, etc. on top of that it's just a very dry collection of 'X Division moved here, Y Corps attacked on this angle' with little detail. the one section of the book that I thought was any good was about the Soviet officers visiting the encircled Germans to arrange Von Paulus' surrender

# ? Jun 24, 2023 12:57

HootTheOwl: May 13, 2012; Hootin and shootin

Weka posted:

I love Stalin. He was awesome. One of my all time faves. A personal hero who I try and emulate. Much like all right minded people of refinement and taste.

E: watched the video yet again. gently caress yeah Stalin!

I love Stalin so much I smooched Stalin on the lips and they Had to edit me out of that photograph because people were getting jealous of how often we could smooch

# ? Jun 24, 2023 13:04

samcarsten: Sep 13, 2022; by vyelkin

John Charity Spring posted:

the only one I've read in full was Stalingrad and it very much whitewashes the Germans and takes a clean-wehrmacht stance, talking up Soviet war crimes but glossing over the German ones and even trying to argue that the Germans treated their Ukrainian HIWI auxiliaries well and got on with them, etc. on top of that it's just a very dry collection of 'X Division moved here, Y Corps attacked on this angle' with little detail. the one section of the book that I thought was any good was about the Soviet officers visiting the encircled Germans to arrange Von Paulus' surrender

it's been a while since I read his Stalingrad book, but most of what I remember about it was the fact HIWIs even existed. I had not run across that in my readings at the time.

# ? Jun 24, 2023 16:41

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

samcarsten posted:

I have a number of his books and cannot remember any instances of him praising the germans. he does seem to hate stalin, though, but who doesn't?

More seriously, what was bad about Stalin?

# ? Jun 25, 2023 00:05

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

killing people in the purges was bad, he should have just done what Mao did of prison or sending to the countryside

# ? Jun 25, 2023 00:17

samcarsten: Sep 13, 2022; by vyelkin

Weka posted:

More seriously, what was bad about Stalin?

the purges? the NKVD? not killing Beria immediately?

# ? Jun 25, 2023 00:40

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

not killing beria is a big one yeah

# ? Jun 25, 2023 00:58

ContinuityNewTimes: Dec 30, 2010; Я выдуман напрочь

Killing everyone who was previously more senior than him in the party, including the guy who taught him about dialectical materialism was a dick move

# ? Jun 25, 2023 01:01

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# ? May 24, 2024 18:12

Whirling: Feb 23, 2023

I wanna learn some more stuff about how incompetent the Nazis were. I've seen a lot about the evil poo poo they did, but I want to see more stories like them making a bunch of handcrafted tanks only to have them destroyed by some Soviet tank made in a tractor factory.

# ? Jun 25, 2023 01:14

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Modern History] Guns Condoms and Electricity

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