War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

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(Thread IKs: fatherboxx)

Tomn: Aug 23, 2007; And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

The officials also suggested Putin might have taken a truth serum before meeting military correspondents where he said Russia was suffering severe tank losses and suffering problems with its military industrial base.

Sorry, what? Is this a joke that lost its impact through being told second-hand or something? If not, on what basis are they making this claim, and why would he have done so?

# ? Jun 15, 2023 03:30

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 1, 2024 14:21

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Tomn posted:

Sorry, what? Is this a joke that lost its impact through being told second-hand or something? If not, on what basis are they making this claim, and why would he have done so?

yeah appears to be a joke, albeit people are tripping over themselves about the 'putin admitted losing 50 tanks' when he also claimed to have destroyed ~500 ukrainian armored vehicles so it isn't really a case of putin suddenly breaking the MoD narrative of 10:1 losses

more remarkable thing in that talk was putin saying that he calls low level commanders personally, like down below battalion level even, which we've heard about previously but it was interesting to see him actually confirming it

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jun 15, 2023

# ? Jun 15, 2023 03:44

Xerxes17: Feb 17, 2011

Big Hitler energy if so.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 03:49

GhostofJohnMuir: Aug 14, 2014; anime is not good

Willo567 posted:

Isn't Lukashenko full of poo poo most of the time?

i'm sure lukashenko isn't going to have his finger on the button, no. but i find it amusing that he straight up says he will

# ? Jun 15, 2023 05:24

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

i'm not paying too much attention to russia moving tactical nukes in to belarus, but this seems like a wild messaging gap between the two parties

your nukes, my nukes, what's the difference?

They gave Batka a box with a big red button and sternly warned him not to press it.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 10:38

Ethics_Gradient: May 5, 2015; Common misconception that; that fun is relaxing. If it is, you're not doing it right.

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

him name is Adam Delimkhanov

I lost my Delimkhanov

ps. i'll find my Delimkhanov
who took my Delimkhanov

I appreciated this post.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 10:54

Autisanal Cheese: Nov 29, 2010

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

i'm not paying too much attention to russia moving tactical nukes in to belarus, but this seems like a wild messaging gap between the two parties

your nukes, my nukes, what's the difference?

just hard to believe that mental image of Putin waiting breathlessly by the phone for Luka to call

# ? Jun 15, 2023 11:16

Scratch Monkey: Oct 25, 2010; 👰Proč bychom se netě�ili🥰kdy� n�m P�n Bůh🙌🏻zdrav� d�💪?

Charliegrs posted:

You know all those videos of Ukrainian drones dropping grenades on the heads of Russian soldiers in trenches? Well now there's a video game for that:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2300160/Death_From_Above/?rdt_cid=3827851941067696783

Not sure how I feel about that.

I don�t like virtual simulations of current military operations but I should note that part of this game involves using drones to steal back washing machines from Russians

# ? Jun 15, 2023 12:42

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

Not the greatest historical analogy here

https://twitter.com/RFERL/status/1669273489654665221?t=ETSyFMgU5SU4PwQZ6me2Yg&s=19

# ? Jun 15, 2023 13:29

boofhead: Feb 18, 2021

I thought most competent security services already knew who the likely spies were, and it was political/diplomatic/"decorum" reasons (as well as the desire to keep an eye on the foreign agents you've already identified) that precluded them from expelling them etc

To put it politely, it sounds like empty nationalism-adjacent rhetoric, but I don't know what the political context is with this guy or Czechia in general so maybe that's just his schtick

I also have no idea how something like what he's talking about would look like or how it would be any benefit at all for the reasons he's implying. Incredibly expensive security theatre at most, and probably actually something a lot lot worse in reality

# ? Jun 15, 2023 14:02

LifeSunDeath: Jan 4, 2007; still gay rights and smoke weed every day

# ? Jun 15, 2023 14:14

Xarn: Jun 26, 2015

fatherboxx posted:

Not the greatest historical analogy here

https://twitter.com/RFERL/status/1669273489654665221?t=ETSyFMgU5SU4PwQZ6me2Yg&s=19

Presumably he forgot about the interment camps coming later :suicide:

# ? Jun 15, 2023 14:15

dumby: Oct 25, 2007

The delusion of these putinites is absurd. NATO out of equipment? Ukraine is whipping rear end with the literal dregs of the NATO arsenal.

https://aurelien2022.substack.com/p/round-two-there-is-no-round-two

# ? Jun 15, 2023 14:47

Dandywalken: Feb 11, 2014

Dregs, huh

# ? Jun 15, 2023 14:52

SlowBloke: Aug 14, 2017

dumby posted:

The delusion of these putinites is absurd. NATO out of equipment? Ukraine is whipping rear end with the literal dregs of the NATO arsenal.

https://aurelien2022.substack.com/p/round-two-there-is-no-round-two

The leopard 2a4 and 2a6 are the top of the line options for most continental europe armies and far more modern than stuff like the C1 ariete. They are far from rusted junk.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 15:00

the holy poopacy: May 16, 2009; hey! check this out; Fun Shoe

SlowBloke posted:

The leopard 2a4 and 2a6 are the top of the line options for most continental europe armies and far more modern than stuff like the C1 ariete. They are far from rusted junk.

Sure, but a shipment of 18 of them is still NATO's table scraps. I had a slow morning so I read through the article and the author simultaneously asserts that "NATO countries are reluctant to ship so much equipment to Ukraine that it hampers their own military readiness" (true) and "In a few weeks Ukraine will lose their remaining Western equipment and NATO countries' military capabilities will be exhausted" (false, and also contradicted by their first point.) That's the delusional part.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 16:04

Saint Celestine: Dec 17, 2008; Lay a fire within your soul and another between your hands, and let both be your weapons.
For one is faith and the other is victory and neither may ever be put out.
- Saint Sabbat, Lessons; Grimey Drawer

the holy poopacy posted:

Sure, but a shipment of 18 of them is still NATO's table scraps. I had a slow morning so I read through the article and the author simultaneously asserts that "NATO countries are reluctant to ship so much equipment to Ukraine that it hampers their own military readiness" (true) and "In a few weeks Ukraine will lose their remaining Western equipment and NATO countries' military capabilities will be exhausted" (false, and also contradicted by their first point.) That's the delusional part.

I see they neglect to mention the thousands of Abrams the US has just sitting around.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 16:56

mrfart: May 26, 2004; Dear diary, today I
became a captain.

dumby posted:

The delusion of these putinites is absurd. NATO out of equipment? Ukraine is whipping rear end with the literal dregs of the NATO arsenal.

https://aurelien2022.substack.com/p/round-two-there-is-no-round-two

Who is this person? Is it a famous, influential journalist, or just a random substack blogger?
I feel we had months of people warning to not judge the offensive from the first weeks, and not so very surprisingly, every twitter general has stormed into the room screeching after even the first days.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 17:18

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

https://warontherocks.com/2023/06/ukraines-multiple-axes-of-attack/

New War on the Rocks podcast with Michael Kofman. Nothing unexpected if you've been following him, but if your main source of info is Twitter it's a good listen.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 17:24

Alctel: Jan 16, 2004; I love snails

Didn't they get some Challenger 2s as well? Those are good tanks

# ? Jun 15, 2023 17:24

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

https://twitter.com/CarlaBabbVOA/status/1669326675249700864

# ? Jun 15, 2023 17:28

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Alctel posted:

Didn't they get some Challenger 2s as well? Those are good tanks

Yeah, you can make tea with the integrated water boiler, something that Ukrainians will appreciate! :11tea:

# ? Jun 15, 2023 17:34

Scratch Monkey: Oct 25, 2010; 👰Proč bychom se netě�ili🥰kdy� n�m P�n Bůh🙌🏻zdrav� d�💪?

Yes but can it heat soup?

# ? Jun 15, 2023 17:49

Owling Howl: Jul 17, 2019

Scratch Monkey posted:

Yes but can it heat soup?

No this destroys the tank.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 17:50

Sereri: Sep 30, 2008; awwwrigami

Scratch Monkey posted:

Yes but can it heat soup?

Tea is technically soup so they might be fine after some calibration

The fact that we haven't seen Challenger 2s doesn't mean that they're not using them, just that Russia has not destroyed one yet.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 18:20

RockWhisperer: Oct 26, 2018

Ynglaur posted:

https://warontherocks.com/2023/06/ukraines-multiple-axes-of-attack/

New War on the Rocks podcast with Michael Kofman. Nothing unexpected if you've been following him, but if your main source of info is Twitter it's a good listen.

That was good even from the perspective of somebody that follows Koffman on and off.

My Takeaways:

1. Luhansk is seeing some action and makes made me wonder if they'd pivot towards that front if the opportunity arises? These minefields really complicate everything though.

2. Most of the Western trained units have not be thrust into the offensive yet. Not implying they will make a difference but just that they're being handled differently.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 18:34

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Sereri posted:

Tea is technically soup so they might be fine after some calibration

The fact that we haven't seen Challenger 2s doesn't mean that they're not using them, just that Russia has not destroyed one yet.

It's very possible that they are not being used at all because there's so few of them, 14 is the officially given number. That's about a company of tanks. This is a problem first because you need to arrange separate logistics and maintenance for them, it doesn't share any major parts with Leopards and even ammo is different. For an armoured battalion/brigade to have two different supply teams is cumbersome. The other part is that such unit is fragile, if you lose a few tanks then you suddenly become not much of a force at all even if the crews survived because there's no immediate replacement vehicles available. The Challies are going to be more useful at this point by being in reserve and thereby allowing to move some T-72's from reserve to front.

Basically it's a useless amount, at least for this phase of operation where the offensive will just have to eat losses to make headway.

Nenonen fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jun 15, 2023

# ? Jun 15, 2023 19:14

Barrel Cactaur: Oct 6, 2021

boofhead posted:

I thought most competent security services already knew who the likely spies were, and it was political/diplomatic/"decorum" reasons (as well as the desire to keep an eye on the foreign agents you've already identified) that precluded them from expelling them etc

To put it politely, it sounds like empty nationalism-adjacent rhetoric, but I don't know what the political context is with this guy or Czechia in general so maybe that's just his schtick

I also have no idea how something like what he's talking about would look like or how it would be any benefit at all for the reasons he's implying. Incredibly expensive security theatre at most, and probably actually something a lot lot worse in reality

No? Most agents have no counterintelligence value once you ID their handler, and that's usually easiest to do by giving them the 5th degree directly and promising non prosecution if they help your investigation. Handlers only have value to you so far as you can try and flip them to knowingly feed bad intel to their parent org or as bargaining chips (less upstanding nations just use foreign nationals directly as hostages). Certainly during peace time and for friendly nations most nations are hands off if the agent/officer isn't directly aiming at the nation itself, for example Turkish intelligence certainly keeps watch on and agents in overseas Kurdish organizations but most NATO nations aren't going to raise a stink about them operating in their nations unless its contrary to the interest of that nations government or they get openly caught breaking the law. But they wouldn't put up with industrial espionage for decorum alone.

This proposal is nationalist crap, mass surveillance is lazy and gives you way too much data to analyze effectively.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 19:25

WarpedLichen: Aug 14, 2008

Might be a dumb question but how are tank companies organized/commanded on the field?

It seems that I have seen often times a single tank escorting an armored column of motorized infantry in MRAPs. I assumed in that case the tank is supposed to coordinate with the infantry forces where it can serve as a breaching element or as hard fire support as the need arises.

You see the same thing in those leaked Russian tactical manuals where your storm team is mostly infantry has maybe some heavy elements like 1-3 tanks and artillery that can be coordinated at a higher level.

Would a tank company get split across these elements somehow? I assumed you drill as a company but then you get assigned out to your actual assault element in the field piece meal, but maybe that's not how it works.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 19:27

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

WarpedLichen posted:

Might be a dumb question but how are tank companies organized/commanded on the field?

It seems that I have seen often times a single tank escorting an armored column of motorized infantry in MRAPs. I assumed in that case the tank is supposed to coordinate with the infantry forces where it can serve as a breaching element or as hard fire support as the need arises.

You see the same thing in those leaked Russian tactical manuals where your storm team is mostly infantry has maybe some heavy elements like 1-3 tanks and artillery that can be coordinated at a higher level.

Would a tank company get split across these elements somehow? I assumed you drill as a company but then you get assigned out to your actual assault element in the field piece meal, but maybe that's not how it works.

A thing to keep in mind with regards to videos is that you usually have a limited field of vision. There could be a dozen tanks in overwatch positions a kilometer away but most videos don't show the surroundings in detail. It's hard to make conclusions from such material.

But there's probably a thing to be said about breaching obstacles, which is that you try to create free lanes for movement and it's not a good idea to send entire units down a path until it has been positively cleared because you might end up with lead tanks getting blown by mines and then the rest of the column gets ambushed by artillery.

Nenonen fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jun 15, 2023

# ? Jun 15, 2023 19:32

GhostofJohnMuir: Aug 14, 2014; anime is not good

quote:

Norway and Denmark have agreed to donate an additional 9,000 rounds of artillery to Ukraine.

Norway will send shells and Denmark fuses and propellant charges, the Norwegian government announced.

The Norwegian defence minister, Bj�rn Arild Gram, said:

Ukraine has an urgent need for artillery ammunition. We have therefore decided to join forces with Denmark for a new donation, so that Ukraine receives the ammunition as quickly as possible.

It is important that we continue to stand together in demonstrating our support of Ukraine. Norway will continue to support Ukraine against the Russian invasion forces as long as it is needed.

The acting Danish defence minister, Troels Lund Poulsen, said Denmark would additionally donate 1,500 complete artillery rounds and 500 shells.

every little bit helps, but if i remember correctly this is like half a days worth of ammunition when the ukrainians are trying to conserve ammo. on the same note:

quote:

The Wall Street Journal is reporting that Japan is in talks to provide artillery shells to the US to bolster stocks for Ukraine�s counteroffensive against Russia.

To date, Japan has only provided non-lethal aid to Ukraine.

The report claims that Tokyo is considering supplying 155mm artillery shells �under a 2016 agreement that allows the Japan and the US to share ammunition as part of their longstanding security alliance.�

U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin held talks earlier this month in Tokyo with Japanese Defense Minister Yasukazu Hamada. After the meeting, Austin praised Japan for the nonlethal military support it has given Ukraine and said additional assistance would be welcome.

In March, the EU�s most senior diplomat warned that there would be �difficulties� if western countries failed to reach a deal to replenish Ukraine�s dwindling stocks of ammunition.

i only remember japan previously discussing supplying tnt for shell manufacturing, so this seems like an escalation on their part

also i missed this story over the weekend. i wonder how asset seizure works on an aircraft that doesn't have western technical support. seems hard to auction off a plane no one can service

quote:

Russia�s foreign ministry said on Thursday that it had summoned a Canadian diplomat in Moscow in protest over the confiscation of an Antonov plane in Toronto, and warned that Russian-Canadian relations were on the �verge of being severed�.

Canada on Saturday ordered the seizure of a Russian-registered Antonov-124 cargo plane at Toronto�s airport, its first such asset seizure aimed at putting pressure on Moscow over the Ukraine invasion, Reuters reports.

Russia told Brian Ebel, the deputy head of Canada�s embassy in Moscow, that it viewed the plane seizure as �cynical theft�, according to a statement from the foreign ministry.

In a statement, the Russian ministry said:

[Canada�s�] Russophobic policy will entail the most serious repercussions for Russian-Canadian relations, which are on the verge of being severed through the fault of the Trudeau administration.

The Canadian foreign ministry did not have an immediate comment.

Canada announced the aircraft seizure while the prime minister, Justin Trudeau, was in Kyiv on Saturday, where he announced $500m (�392m) in military aid for Ukraine.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 19:41

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

also i missed this story over the weekend. i wonder how asset seizure works on an aircraft that doesn't have western technical support. seems hard to auction off a plane no one can service

Antonov is a Ukrainian company, they will probably just offer it to Ukraine.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 19:49

GhostofJohnMuir: Aug 14, 2014; anime is not good

Nenonen posted:

Antonov is a Ukrainian company, they will probably just offer it to Ukraine.

of course it is, i completely forgot all the damage their infrastructure suffered in the opening days of the war

# ? Jun 15, 2023 19:50

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

WarpedLichen posted:

Might be a dumb question but how are tank companies organized/commanded on the field?

It seems that I have seen often times a single tank escorting an armored column of motorized infantry in MRAPs. I assumed in that case the tank is supposed to coordinate with the infantry forces where it can serve as a breaching element or as hard fire support as the need arises.

You see the same thing in those leaked Russian tactical manuals where your storm team is mostly infantry has maybe some heavy elements like 1-3 tanks and artillery that can be coordinated at a higher level.

Would a tank company get split across these elements somehow? I assumed you drill as a company but then you get assigned out to your actual assault element in the field piece meal, but maybe that's not how it works.

In Western-style tank companies, you have three platoons of four tanks each, and a command section with two tanks (the Company Commander and the Company Executive Officer). In Warsaw Pact-style tank companies, you have three platoons of three tanks each, and the Company Commander has a tank.

You generally want at least 100m between vehicles, if not more, but terrain and line of sight ultimately dictate this. If you're traveling in convoy you'll be much closer, assuming you're not anticipating indirect fire.

That said, you can task organize based on what a specific mission needs. Maybe you have an infantry formation responsible for a street, but you don't have enough tanks for every single street. So you give it one tank for close fire support. Units absolutely get split up and attached to other units to do specific things.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 20:16

bad_fmr: Nov 28, 2007

Sereri posted:

Tea is technically soup so they might be fine after some calibration

The fact that we haven't seen Challenger 2s doesn't mean that they're not using them, just that Russia has not destroyed one yet.

Jeremy Clarkson voice

The most well armoured field kitchen,

In the world.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 20:34

FuturePastNow: May 19, 2014

Field kitchens sound like a very bad idea in a world where soldiers and pilots can see heat

# ? Jun 15, 2023 20:49

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

SECDEF and CJCS held a press briefing in conjunction with the 13th meeting of the Ukraine Contact Group. Transcript in link, excerpts in post. I kept a lot of it in, because these are only once a month, so most of the cuts are cross-talk or explicitly off-topic questions that go nowhere.

Transcript and Video:
https://www.defense.gov/News/Transc...-chairman-gene/

Highlights:
-US message remains standing by Ukraine for "as long as it takes," and there is no "easy sprint to the finish line" for Ukraine.
-Several countries offering aid now, while others are beginning multi-year aid programs to both budget out as well as demonstrate commitment
-Air defense and artillery/munitions remains one of the long-term efforts, in terms of type of aid provided to Ukraine.
-Ukrainian offensive in early stages and unable to be characterized yet
-When asked about combat losses, SECDEF reiterates that it is a given that in combat, losses are expected. Also highlights that Ukraine was given and has utilized recovery and repair equipment and supplies to recover and reconstitute a portion of lost equipment, and US and partners retain means to flow further supplies and materiel into Ukraine.
-Milley points out this is a very difficult fight, with hundreds of thousands of Russian troops in dug in, prepared positions in Ukraine, but Ukraine is making steady progress, and Ukrainian troops' morale is higher than that of the Russian forces. Estimates the offensive will take a long time at high cost.
-When asked why the US isn't more vocal about Ukraine joining NATO (a select group of Eastern European NATO countries want to expedite entry or give them some special status), the SECDEF [in my reading] does not really answer the question.
-No real update on F-16 discussion. Denmark and Netherlands heading up a training plan, no timeline on training or on fielding. [My comment: Probably remains a 2024 or 2025 or beyond thing.]

quote:

SECRETARY OF DEFENSE LLOYD J. AUSTIN III: Thanks, Patrick. Good afternoon, everyone, and thanks for being here.

We've just wrapped up our 13th meeting of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group and it once again demonstrated the unity and the resolve that have characterized this group ever since our very first meeting. We continue to be inspired by the Ukrainian people.

As I told the Contact Group today, the missile strike that hit a residential building in Kryvyi Rih reminded us all of the senseless suffering that the people of Ukraine have endured. But they remain undaunted, and so do their leaders.

We were fortunate to be joined yet again by my good friend, Ukrainian Minister of Defense Oleksiy Reznikov. As always, this Contact Group benefits hugely from hearing firsthand from him and his team about the state of the battlefield and Ukraine's most urgent needs. As I've told Oleksiy, we have great confidence in the training and the capabilities of the Ukrainian Armed Forces thanks in large part to the tireless and combined work of the Contact Group -- Group's members.

Now, we all know that the Ukrainians have been engaged in a tough fight to defend their sovereign territory and take back the -- the occupied territory, and we have all seen the skill and courage of Ukraine's defenders ever since the start of Russia's invasion. Of course, we've given Ukraine's forces important training and impressive capabilities, but war is fluid, dynamic and unpredictable. Ukraine's fight is not some easy sprint to the finish line and our message remains clear: We will stand by Ukraine for as long as it takes.

Now, let me talk a bit more about today's Contact Group. In addition to the briefing from Ukraine, we heard from the leaders of U.S. European Command, and they briefed us on future training plans as well as efforts to maintain and sustain the equipment that we've already provided and to ensure that Ukraine can do so for future equipment, as well.

We also heard from our friends from Germany and Poland on their work sustaining Ukraine's new Leopard tanks, and our colleagues from the Netherlands and Denmark shared the progress that they've made on plans to train Ukrainian pilots on fourth-generation fighter aircraft, including F-16s.

But it brings me back to one of the very top priorities of this Contact Group. We remain laser-focused on meeting Ukraine's urgent needs for ground-based air defense systems, and that's especially important since Russia's -- since Russia has ruthlessly ramped up its missile and drone attacks over the past month against Ukraine's cities, and these attacks have killed scores of Ukrainian civilians, and that's just part of Moscow's reckless and lawless attempt to break the will of the Ukrainian people.

But Ukraine's air defenders have served -- saved countless lives using air defense systems and intercepts -- interceptor missiles donated by members of this Contact Group, and our ongoing support will ensure that Ukraine can continue to defend its civilians, its cities and its critical infrastructure.

Now, several countries have stepped up today with new commitments for Ukraine.

Canada committed another $500 million package to support Ukraine, and that will include more than 200 critical air defense missiles to help Ukraine's skies -- help protect Ukraine's skies. And the United States, along with the U.K., Denmark and the Netherlands all contributed funding for additional critical air defense missiles for Ukraine. Italy also announced its latest tranche of assistance, which includes highly critical capabilities that meet Ukraine's most urgent needs to defend itself.

And several allies are beginning to think about supporting Ukraine for the long term. Norway and Germany announced multi-year packages and Denmark just announced its own nearly $2.6 billion package for military assistance through 2024.

All these contributions underscore our unity in supporting Ukraine and in defending the rules-based international order that keeps us all secure.

Ukraine has overcome so many obstacles but more lie ahead, and Ukraine's troops and citizens do not stand alone. Thanks to the historic support of nations of goodwill from around the world, Ukraine is well-positioned for the challenges still to come.

As President Biden has said, our support will not waver, our resolve will not falter, and our unity will not crack. Make no mistake, we will stand with the Ukrainian people for as long as it takes.

And with that, I'll turn it over to General Milley.

GENERAL MARK A. MILLEY: Thank you, Secretary Austin, and good afternoon to everyone that's with us here today.

For 16 months, the international community has stood together in defense of the rules-based international order. This coalition's commitment at this 13th meeting of the Ukrainian Defense Contact Group demonstrates our unwavering dedication to the ideals of sovereignty and self-determination.

But first, let me thank Secretary Austin for his steadfast leadership in fostering this global coalition. From the first meeting to the 13th today, without his leadership, these would not be happening. And thank you also to the ministers and chiefs of defense from some-50 nations that joined us today.

To Ukrainian Minister of Defense Reznikov, my counterpart, General Zaluzhnyi, who is not here today but I did have a chance to talk to him the other day, and his representative, General Moisiuk, who was here, thank you for your unflinching resolve and determination in the face of immense adversity and thank you also for the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people.

We stand here today not simply as a group of nations but as a united front standing for the values that are much larger than ourselves. We stand for the bedrock principles of national sovereignty and liberty, principles that Russia's illegal and unprovoked invasion of Ukraine clearly undermine.

Putin's war of choice is not just a transgression against Ukraine, it is literally a frontal assault on the very international order that guarantees peace, prosperity and freedom to all nations. The brave Ukrainian people continue to demonstrate their spirit of resilience, fighting relentlessly to reclaim their homeland from Russian occupation. Each day, the Ukrainians fight not just with steel and weapons but the iron will of their spirit.

As President Zelenskyy has announced recently, the Ukrainians have embarked on an offensive operation to liberate their country. They're in the early stages and it's far too early to make any definitive assessments but I can tell you that each day, the Ukrainians demonstrate the courage and tenacity needed to methodically regain their territory.

We have said before that war is dynamic, it is a contest of wills. As the Secretary just said, it's uncertain, it's violent, and as always, has high costs. But we can be sure that Ukrainian bravery, competency and preparedness will carry the day. We can be confident that this contact group has given Ukraine the tools that it needs to succeed.

And we know that the will of the Ukrainian people will continue to resonate far beyond their borders. In fact, it will resonate throughout the globe. Their actions echo the voices of all people who cherish freedom and the rights to determine their own fate against tyranny. Our assistance to Ukraine supports their cause to remain free and independent. It represents our commitment to what binds us as nations operating within the rules-based international order.

We have and we will continue to offer wide-ranging support, from providing sophisticated combined arms capabilities to intelligence to training of Ukrainian forces to be more effective on the battlefield. Through a global effort, more than 6,000 Ukrainians are being trained right now at 40 different locations -- training locations in 65 courses in 33 nations on three continents. That is all happening right now, today.

Since the beginning of the war, the United States has trained over 11,000 Ukrainians in combined arms maneuver and staff training. The U.S. training effort has created 12 maneuver battalions, nearly 5,000 operators that are fighting in those machines right now, along with their combined arms staffs. We are currently training three battalions -- a tank battalion and two territorial National Guard battalions.

All in all, the international effort has trained almost 60,000 Ukrainian soldiers for this current operation, and many of whom are engaged in close combat as we stand here today.

Last week, the United States released another Ukrainian Security Assistance Initiative package totaling several billion dollars, $2 billion. This package procures critical capabilities, including Patriot munitions, HAWK air defense systems, artillery rocket munitions, maintenance and sustainment support, and much more.

Additionally this week, we released our latest drawdown package of $325 million. From our current stocks, we are providing Ukraine air defense munitions, GMLRS, long-range artillery, artillery rounds, 155, Bradley, Strykers, and many other capabilities.

Over the past year, we have seen the strength of Ukraine because of the international coalition and the impact of our collective support, along with the courage of the Ukrainian people. We see Ukrainian forces displaying exceptional skill in operating complex systems, like Patriot, armored vehicles and HIMARS. We see Ukrainians effectively leveraging anti-armor weapons, advanced munitions and sophisticated air defense systems.

Our commitment to Ukraine extends far beyond the here and the now. It is not defined by time or convenience but it is defined by the principles of democracy, freedom and the international rule of law. It is a pledge that upholds the international order to ensure that every nation, big or small, can live in peace, enjoying its rightful sovereignty without fear of unprovoked aggression.

As the President of the United States and Secretary of Defense Austin have consistently stated over and over again, the United States remains committed to supporting Ukraine for as long as it takes. We will continue to provide Ukraine with the means to fight until Russia ends this unprovoked aggression.

Thank you and I look forward to your questions.

STAFF: Thank you both, gentlemen. The first question, we'll go to Dan Lamothe, Washington Post.

Q: Gentlemen, good afternoon. Thanks for your time today.

A question for Secretary Austin please. We've started to see battlefield losses in this Ukrainian counter-offensive emerge online and otherwise. To -- to what degree do they concern you? And do you anticipate additional commitments of U.S. fighting vehicles to bolster the counter-offensive as it moves forward?

And then for General Milley, in light of this counter-offensive, there's the expectation that this could be a grinding, bloody slog that takes many months. To what degree and what kind of patience do you anticipate will be necessary not just for the Ukrainians, but the American people and taxpayers and the U. -- and the military alliance that is supporting Ukraine as this goes on? Thank you.

SEC. AUSTIN: Thanks, Dan.

Regarding the battlefield losses of vehicles and equipment, this is a war, so we know that there will be battle damage on both sides. And you know, what's important is that, you know, the Ukrainians have the ability to recover equipment that's been damaged, repair where -- where possible, get that equipment back into the fight, and also that they have the -- we have a means to continue to push capability forward.

So there will continue to be battle damage. I think the Russians have shown us that same five vehicles about a thousand times from 10 different angles. But quite frankly, the Ukrainians have -- still have a lot of combat capability -- combat power. So as you've indicated, this will continue to be a -- a tough fight as we anticipated, and I believe that the -- the -- the element that does the best in terms of sustainment will -- will probably have the advantage at the end of the day. So our focus is on making sure that we continue to push forward what Ukraine needs in order to be successful.

GEN. MILLEY: So Dan, it'll be very premature to put any estimates of how long, time, on an operation of this magnitude. There are several hundred thousand Russian troops dug in in prepared positions all along the front line, and Ukraine has begun their attack, and they're making steady progress. This is a very difficult fight. It's a very violent fight and it will likely take a considerable amount of time and at high cost. But at the end of the day, as Napoleon once said, "The moral is to the physical as three is to one", and the Ukrainian morale, their leadership, their skill, their tenacity, their resilience is very high. Russian, on the -- the Russians, on the other hand, their leadership is -- is not necessarily coherent. Their troops' morale is not high. They've been sitting in defensive positions. Many of them don't even know why they're there. So we'll see. It's too early to tell, but we'll see how this plays out.

...

Q: Thank you very much. From (inaudible). Secretary Austin, one question: There is a growing frustration among Eastern European allies, that they believe there is not enough support from your government, your admin -- administration towards a Ukrainian membership in NATO. Why are you so hesitant to give any more concrete signs that Ukraine will enter the alliance and that there will be some more promises which go beyond the Budapest clauses? Thank you.

SEC. AUSTIN: Well, thanks. I think you've heard us say over and over again that we continue to support Ukraine's open door -- excuse me --- NATO's open-door policy, and each -- each country will -- will have a different path to -- to -- to accession. And so again, I'll let -- I will further say that we remain where we were with Budapest, and -- and so as -- as we go forward here, I think you'll see allies and -- and partners continue to work together to provide Ukraine what it needs to be successful, and also provide assurances going forward, so...

STAFF: Our next question will go to Carla Babb, Voice of America.

Q: Mr. Secretary, Chairman, thank you both for doing this. Mr. Secretary, what has the U.S. committed to provide to the F-16 training program for Ukrainians, specifically, trainers, munitions, jets? And can you provide us with any more details on the overall F-16 training plans?

...

SEC. AUSTIN: Thanks, Carla. Let me start with the F-16 question here. First, let me say how much I really appreciate the Netherlands and Denmark stepping up to lead this consortium. And they are outlining the -- the -- the plan for training, and there are a number of other countries that have joined in and volunteered to -- to help in this effort.

And so this work continues. We were briefed today on -- on kind of the outline of the plan and the steps for, you know, for the way ahead, and I have to tell you that they, in the 30 days that we've been after this, they have leaned into this in a major way.

As you know, the United States will have to provide approval for the training, and also some other aspects of this, and as you would expect, we continue to work with the Netherlands and Denmark as they -- as they put this plan together. But -- but again, this will take some time, but -- but they're really moving out in a very impressive way and -- and they're getting support from other partners in the -- in the UDC -- CG.

...

STAFF: Thank you, gentlemen. Final question will go to (Vitaly Surkov, U.A. Television.

Q: Thank you. You said what about Ukrainian advanced. Which insight did you get from observing this advance? Maybe it would change the way of help, maybe a new type of weapons United States would provide. And what you promoted, when F-16 and Abrams could be on the territory of Ukraine? That�s it. Thank you.

SEC. AUSTIN: Is that for me or the chairman?

Q: (inaudible).

GEN. MILLEY: Yeah, we had a -- a session today with a variety of countries. We're early in the planning process. I -- I think there's a -- a -- an intent by several countries that have stepped up to take the lead, Netherlands and -- and -- and Denmark, in terms of the planning. So there's a lot of work left to be done, but I think it would be premature to -- to give a specific date on any time the F-16s or any other type of advanced aircraft would be employed in combat in -- in Ukraine. There's -- there's a lot of work to do. You have to do language training. You have to do pilot training. You've got to get all the systems set in place. So those -- those wheels are in motion, but we're a ways from completion of that project.

SEC. AUSTIN: In terms of lessons learned, there are -- there are key lessons learned in every fight, and -- and we always encourage our partners to capture those lessons learned and -- and adapt as required.

You know, fights are dynamic. Squads and platoons actually fight the fight. Everybody else on the battlefield supports it. And so what those squads and platoons are doing and seeing and learning, how they're employing supporting fires and -- and all of that, and we incorporate those insights into the training that we're doing for follow-on forces.

And so the -- the Ukrainian military is a learning organization and an adaptive organization, and we see continuous adaptation on -- on -- on a daily basis. It's been that way from the very start, and as things -- as the battlefield dynamics have changed over the weeks and months, we've worked with the Ukrainians -- we've also changed, in terms of kinds of things that we're providing them, and it's been successful and the evidence that it's been successful is because -- is -- can be seen in where the -- where the Ukrainians are today on the battlefield.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 20:51

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

FuturePastNow posted:

Field kitchens sound like a very bad idea in a world where soldiers and pilots can see heat

So are internal combustion engines or any kind of heating in cold environments. Future wars will be fought by fungi.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 21:05

Der Kyhe: Jun 25, 2008

FuturePastNow posted:

Field kitchens sound like a very bad idea in a world where soldiers and pilots can see heat

Challenger 2 engine is a 26-liter diesel V12 sitting right next to the crew, I think having a water heater in the cabin for making tea or broth isn't the heat signature you really need to worry about here.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 21:23

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 1, 2024 14:21

Coquito Ergo Sum: Feb 9, 2021

Yeah, boiling vessels are nothing compared to engines and power systems. They're even considered somewhat of a crew safety feature, since it removes the need for a crew to leave the tank to perform a task.

# ? Jun 15, 2023 21:47

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

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