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GonSmithe posted:Yeah, I did that, "this things sucks because it didn't answer every question" and being mad about "plot holes" are really lazy ways to engage with tv/movies. Not really your job to scold others about their preferred ways of being entertained.
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Jun 16, 2023 14:30
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I’ve yet to encounter any “mystery box” narrative where it wasn’t extremely easy to figure out what’s going on. Like, for example, the movie CUBE doesn’t explain the CUBE. What’s the deal with the CUBE??? It’s literally a mystery box??!! But then the characters just treat the CUBE as a metaphor for the universe. We’re treated to their various interpretations of the CUBE, which provide nice characterization. Not-revealing the answer then ensures that no one character is presented as definitively correct. This is extremely basic & easy to understand. So, like, what’re all these incomprehensibly baffling stories people are running into? Ones where the answer isn’t obviously magic/aliens, obviously.
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Jun 16, 2023 16:31
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I’ve yet to encounter any “mystery box” narrative where it wasn’t extremely easy to figure out what’s going on. I think the problem is that the more the show hints at giving answers and maintains suspense with plot twists, the less well this works. It's fine if characterization is the draw but if people are watching because they're interested in the mystery, then just going "oh lol it was just a metaphor" at the end doesn't work as well this is one reason more people are angry at lost than the leftovers, for example To give another example, 1899 was cancelled after one season, so presumably more explanation was planned, but I guess even if the showrunners had intended to give a concrete explanation of what was happening in the next two seasons, it's possible to retroactively assume that everything that happened in the show was purely a metaphor; should we be satisfied with that? I think this argument falls flat somewhat when you consider the fact that it's possible for shows to function better or worse when interpreted purely as metaphors for the universe, so it's possible for shows to 1) not give concrete explanations but be satisfying as metaphors, but also 2) not give concrete explanations and also NOT be satisfying as metaphors. mystes fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jun 16, 2023 |
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Jun 16, 2023 16:38
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Jolo posted:Star Wars doesn't make the cut cause we never found out what General Grievous's whole deal was. Did he have asthma? Was he programmed to have asthma? I think he's supposed to be a biological guy in there, terribly messed up and taped together with robot parts, but besides the weird coughing it doesn't really communicate that
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Jun 16, 2023 16:51
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The coughing is because obi wan crushed his chest exoskeleton in a clone wars animated short. I am pretty sure they also go more into his background in the clone wars cartoon show but I didn't watch that so can't confirm
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Jun 16, 2023 16:57
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:The coughing is because obi wan crushed his chest exoskeleton in a clone wars animated short Mace windu bro
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Jun 16, 2023 17:02
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mystes posted:so is your point that any time a story doesn't explain stuff you can always hand wave it away as a metaphor? Nope. The CUBE in CUBE is, diegetically, a literal gigantic CUBE. It’s clearly made of, like, metal and stuff. People are trapped inside it. The point is your ability to interpret a thing, be it a CUBE, a work of art, or whatever. This is not only the ability to read without being passively told what to think, but also an ability to determine if a given explanation is wrong. My go-to example is in The Matrix, where everything Morpheus says about the purpose of the matrix is flat-out scientifically inaccurate & contradicted by both what we’re shown and what we’re told by other characters. The sensible conclusion that Morpheus is just bullshitting - and, if that’s the case, how can we tell what the matrix is? Another example is at the end of Pulp Fiction, when Jules presents multiple different interpretations of a biblical quote. Without direct confirmation from God Himself, how can we tell which is the ‘correct’ interpretation? SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Jun 16, 2023 |
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Jun 16, 2023 17:05
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I'm still not sure what you're trying to say except "you can come up with an explanation for any seeming contradiction or flaw so therefore it's impossible for explanation given in a story to be bad or insufficiently satisfying" The "battery" explanation in the matrix is apparently because they wanted to say people were being used for processing power but they thought the audience would be confused by that, for example, so while coming up with a complicated explanation involving morpheus being confused is possible, it's also possible to simply criticize the movie for having a nonsensical explanation.
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Jun 16, 2023 17:18
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I'd argue that the movies used as examples don't really qualify as mystery boxes because the mysteries aren't really central to them. In Cube and the Matrix, all you really need to know is that people are trapped in a cube and a matrix and need to get out, the rest is just horror and action. My enjoyment of the movie isn't affected by knowing Morpheus doesn't have a perfect understanding of the motives of robots. Even in The Leftovers, if there was only one central mystery that was never solved I'd be absolutely fine with it. I don't need to know where 2% of the world disappeared to, I just accept that it happened and I'm watching the characters react to it. My problem with shows like The Leftovers is that the writers add additional mysteries on to that central one and still claim that mysteries aren't the point of the show. If they aren't the point then why add more?
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Jun 16, 2023 17:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Nope. I have no idea if there’s even a point you’re trying to make anywhere in this
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Jun 16, 2023 17:33
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CelticPredator posted:Mace windu bro Oh yeah duh, been a while, thank you for the correction
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Jun 16, 2023 17:54
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:how can we tell what the matrix is? According to Morpheus himself, we can't because "no one can be told what the Matrix is."
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Jun 16, 2023 20:32
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Nope. One of the twists in Reloaded is that Morpheus is a tool who doesn't understand anything that's happening.
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Jun 16, 2023 21:20
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Eh
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Jun 16, 2023 21:35
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ymgve posted:Are there any mystery box series where everything is explained and all viewers are satisfied? I'll second Mrs. Davis. It's a weird, ridiculous show, definitely a different vibe than most other Lindelof ones but it's very good. Betty Gilpin should get an Emmy for it plus all the major mysteries are explained. I was satisfied plus one of the mysteries was hilarious but ymmv.
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Jun 16, 2023 22:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
This is an especially funny example because it's not a Bible verse at all.
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Jun 16, 2023 22:47
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:This is an especially funny example because it's not a Bible verse at all. Even funnier than that, it’s a slightly edited version of a nearly identical speech done by Sonny Chiba in The Bodyguard
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Jun 16, 2023 23:03
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Baron von Eevl posted:According to Morpheus himself, we can't because "no one can be told what the Matrix is." Honestly it seemed very easy to describe
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Jun 17, 2023 01:54
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Mrs. Davis sounds good. Sounds like what I want.
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Jun 17, 2023 02:43
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GonSmithe posted:Have you thought about engaging with the ideas and feelings the movie/tv shows you watch are trying to convey instead of trying to "win" at watching them? I just want what I want in my entertainment and I'm not going to feel bad about what I like. I don't think hating shows that endlessly draw out mysteries and spin their wheels is wrong. I think cliffhangers and fakeouts are disrespectful to the audience and also bullshit. My mention of Rectify is something you can definitely ding me for, because that show is just this amazing bunch of acting and beautifully composed shots and writerly dialogue, possibly one of the best shows in the history of television, and I loved it while watching it, but I still don't like that it didn't resolve the central mystery in a satisfactory way. There's no accounting for taste.
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Jun 17, 2023 02:48
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I've never told anyone they were wrong and stupid for liking pointless unresolved mysteries.
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Jun 17, 2023 02:49
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mystes posted:I'm still not sure what you're trying to say except "you can come up with an explanation for any seeming contradiction or flaw so therefore it's impossible for explanation given in a story to be bad or insufficiently satisfying" Nope! The point is more basic: “mystery boxes” don’t actually exist. They aren’t a thing. Your actual complaint, as now revealed, is that you believe your media is full of ‘inexplicable contradictions’. But that’s not the case, is it? There really aren’t any contradictions, in any of these things that we’re writing about here. Morpheus is wrong about the robots’ motives, while Jules is correct that he’s not a godly person. So, really, it’s just expressing a belief that there’s secret information that makes TV shows feel more satisfying - and that it is being withheld from you.
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Jun 17, 2023 03:40
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The point is more basic: “mystery boxes” don’t actually exist. They aren’t a thing. That's a long bow to draw. This is going to be one of those broad spectrum genre arguments isn't it, e.g. all fiction is fantasy.
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Jun 17, 2023 04:20
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Jolo posted:Star Wars doesn't make the cut cause we never found out what General Grievous's whole deal was. Did he have asthma? Was he programmed to have asthma? I believe this could be explained with a well timed watch of the Genndy Tartakovsky's Clone Wars shorts E: fb
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Jun 17, 2023 04:38
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Ok, well, with that solved then my question is why didn't they just eat the leftovers? Probably still good if you reheat em, worst case scenario is you end up feeding em to the dog.
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Jun 17, 2023 05:20
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The cybernetics had space herps that's why he sounded so raspy
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Jun 17, 2023 05:35
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Mrs. Davis sounds good. Sounds like what I want. I'm legit mad that Mrs. Davis was so fun because figuratively no one has Peacock and my breathless recommendations are almost completely useless. I felt the same about Poker Face, but I think they were still offering episodes in their free tier at the time so people could at least get a taste.
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Jun 17, 2023 14:16
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Mystery Boxes: Good or bad? Find out next!
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Jun 17, 2023 15:08
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Peacock also has Grand Crew, which was sadly just canceled
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Jun 17, 2023 15:19
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Wtf, why
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Jun 17, 2023 16:24
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Open Source Idiom posted:That's a long bow to draw. No, it’s really very straightforward. If you go back to where this all began, JJ Abrams’ did a TED Talk about a box that he picked up at a carnival or something. He used this as a basic example of the importance of generating anticipation and intrigue in a narrative. He even provides examples of what he means: like, in the first Star Wars, who is the mysterious Obiwan Kenobi? Of course, we actually do find out who Obiwan is, very early in the narrative. He’s a veteran who acts shysty, but claims that he knew Luke’s dad & has psychic powers. Neither of those claims are really confirmed true in the film itself, though, so the question of whether psychic powers are objectively real is left open to interpretation for the audience. But anyways, the point is that you can open up a mystery box whenever you fuckin want to. Obiwan Kenobi is some old dude. It turns out that he did know Luke’s dad, and the psychic powers are even confirmed to be objectively real in the much later film Phantom Menace (much to fans’ consternation). Such a mystery!!! Likewise, we can say - with a great deal of certainty - that the fuckin’ carnival box probably contains a stuffed animal, or a t-shirt. Maybe some candy. There are only so many things that are cheap, fun for kids, and that can fit into a small cardboard box. Abrams just considers the packaging around the toy to be very interesting, because why not just directly buy a toy? Why bother wrapping gifts before giving them to people? Turns out it’s just fun??? So what happened is that angry LOST fans misunderstood what was being said & became fixated on the idea that JJ Abrams had lied to them, and stolen their toys. Like, that’s their explanation for why they didn’t like the show’s ending. Y’see, the negative of wondering ‘what’s in the box’ is darkly fantasizing that there is something BAD in the box. Maybe there is EVIL in the box. Maybe the box is EMPTY.
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Jun 17, 2023 16:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:No, it’s really very straightforward. Just as an aside to this, theory11 actually partnered with JJ to offer a legit mystery box about 10 or so years ago. I actually bought one and have it sitting on my desk! I don't know why. Dumb to buy such a thing. https://store.theory11.com/products/mysterybox The Ted talk is linked in there. Fun fact... They don't provide a code for the mystery box Spoiler: it's in the product shot
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Jun 17, 2023 16:56
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:No, it’s really very straightforward. So uhh mystery boxes do exist?
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Jun 17, 2023 17:17
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Open Source Idiom posted:So uhh mystery boxes do exist? The thread will be cancelled before this is answered
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Jun 17, 2023 17:25
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Glottis posted:Peacock also has Grand Crew, which was sadly just canceled The writing was on the wall this past season, tbh. The journal/narrative voiceover gimmick in the last few episodes was clearly an attempt to speed run story resolutions, and I think the last line was literally something "Oh, I also should probably still work on finding a relationship! Guess I'll do that sometime, okay byyyyyeee!!!"
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Jun 17, 2023 17:49
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Open Source Idiom posted:So uhh mystery boxes do exist? No, because we’re dealing with two different things: JJ Abrams’ mystery box is just the basic concept of revealing information gradually in a narrative, and leaving some things open to interpretation so that the audience is kept engaged. The ‘troper nerd-meme version of the mystery box is that evil people are tricking you and stealing your enjoyment by deliberately introducing ‘plot holes’ into narratives for malicious purposes.
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Jun 17, 2023 17:54
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https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2023-06-16/streaming-movies-theatrical-window-ifc-films-prime-video-netflix-apple “What the old method did was it built in a series of inciting marketing incidents that brought new audiences and resurrected the title,” said [veteran independent film producer Ted] Hope. “So friends would say, ‘Oh my God, when my film played on an airplane I got a whole new series of emails from people.’ You talk to filmmakers now, and I think they recognize that the profit-based, single-title strategy brought with it that longevity. If your film doesn’t have those subsequent beats, people forget about you. On streaming it may be available to watch now, but no one’s going to be thinking about it.” This article is about film, but I think it speaks a little to what those of us who support weekly releases are talking about.
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Jun 17, 2023 18:02
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It’s absolutely insane how this year every single film executive is just rediscovering the way movies and tv were promoted for the last 100 years before Covid and acting like it’s some industry shaking game-changer instead of just… a return to form.
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Jun 17, 2023 18:04
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I love seeing movies in the theater and it’s sucks that I have basically had to give it up because nothing I want to see plays around here. I have 4-5 theaters within 10 miles of me, all of which have 10-15 screens, but at any given point I only have about 7 movies to choose from because they all double up on the latest Disney/Marvel/DC/Transformers/FatF movies. It’s loving ridiculous with 50-75 screens that close to me I would still have to go all the way into NYC to see even Beau Is Afraid or Asteroid City. There used to be a nice indie theater one town over, but it closed during COVID and reopened as another major multiplex. It sucks. I know I am an anomaly in regard to what makes them money, but is it too much to rear end for ONE theater that plays something even slightly off-mainstream? I just recognize that franchise films aren’t really my bag anymore, but also just like going to the theater. 
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Jun 17, 2023 19:22
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
This is a willful misinterpretation of pretty much every criticism I've seen leveled at Lost. No one I've come across thinks Abrams purposefully made an incomplete show just to gently caress with people. What I've seen articulated quite often is that the writers introduced a slew of mysteries, answering some but not others, and the weight of so many unresolved questions eventually outran the writers' ability to provide satisfying resolutions. There is a reason the "mystery box" criticism never gets thrown at shows like Better Call Saul, The Wire, Mad Men, The Shield, etc. Hell, even a show like Counterpart, which is ostensibly a mystery box show, doesn't get the criticism Lost gets, because even though it got cancelled early, it didn't rely on cheap vague bullshit like magical numbers and smoke monsters to get people interested, and somehow had a better conclusion than Lost, despite not even being finished.
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Jun 17, 2023 19:33
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