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Trash Ops posted:tanking is easy as poo poo and if you are not going fast you are doing it wrong. 3 dps 1 tank parties are pretty common tbh gently caress off with your "My way or the highway" bullshit. If some tanks want to go lightspeed, I have no problem with that, but when I am tanking, if I am not comfortable going fast, and you try to force the issue, you are the problem. People are here to have fun, not to maximize efficiency. If a person is being forced into a playstyle they do not enjoy, they are not having fun. So why the hell are they even here? Why should they put up with you?
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Jun 18, 2023 15:48
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Jesus calm down. Almost every dungeon post AAR has barriers limiting you to pulling 2-3 packs at a time and later dungeons are clearly designed with those type of pulls. Also have you considered that you aren’t the main character and the other three people in your party would like to be more efficient? Especially the healer who’d like to do more than just cast stone over and over? If that’s how you want to play, fine. There’s a duty support system that fits perfectly with that play style.
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Jun 18, 2023 15:58
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BlazetheInferno posted:gently caress off with your "My way or the highway" bullshit. If some tanks want to go lightspeed, I have no problem with that, but when I am tanking, if I am not comfortable going fast, and you try to force the issue, you are the problem. People are here to have fun, not to maximize efficiency. If a person is being forced into a playstyle they do not enjoy, they are not having fun. So why the hell are they even here? Why should they put up with you? You seem like a real joy.
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Jun 18, 2023 15:59
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I think this is the second time we've had a person melt down over being told "Pulling two packs at a time is the intended way for tanks to play." My earnest recommendation for anyone who feels that way would to be level a healer class, do a dungeon via Duty Support, and discover truly how little damage a tank is taking from just one pack at a time. 1stGear fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Jun 18, 2023 |
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Jun 18, 2023 16:04
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I will fully admit that I am heavily biased against speedrun rushrushrushgogogogo style gameplay, and have been for a long time. And when I see it creeping in, I instinctively reject it. It's one of the reasons I gravitate more toward Duty Support, because they don't rush me. There are occasions where I am willing to indulge a faster pace, some dungeons where I don't mind going multiple pulls at a time. But when I am politely asking a group to take a slower pace, and the only response I get is for DPS or healers to run ahead and grab more poo poo and run it back to me, I will not be in a good mood. In those situations is when I start contemplating just eating the abandon penalty and loving off so they can wait for a tank that's more their speed. Disclaimer: It's not something I've actually done as of yet, but good god there are times when I want to. Most of the time, people are polite and friendly when a tank asks to go slow. People are willing to accommodate a tank that is not comfortable moving quickly and taking multiple pulls at a time. It's when the occasional rear end in a top hat who comes along who is personally offended by the very concept of not moving as fast as physically possible that there are conflicts.
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Jun 18, 2023 16:07
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Hell, I was tanking the 69 dungeon for the first time since the revamp last night via mentor roulette, and I felt a bit sheepish when I realized I was single-pulling
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Jun 18, 2023 16:10
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For the record, it still feels like a lot of people are giving off a strong appearance of "If you don't pull 3 packs at a time right from the get-go, you're doing it wrong and are bad" And I'm not asking for the opposite. I'm not saying it's wrong or that everyone else needs to slow down all the time. Literally the only thing I ask is for people to have a bit of respect when a tank asks to take things a bit slower. Because there are people out there who don't show any respect for that, and seem to take it as a personal challenge to see how many mobs they can shove down this Tankxiety-suffering individual's throat before they have a nervous breakdown or just die and wipe the group. I am simply saying those particular individuals need to chill, and realize that sometimes people try to step into a role they are not comfortable with, and don't respond well to the Sink Or Swim teaching technique. It is easier for a stronger player to slow down than it is for a weaker player to git gud. The only thing preventing it is pride and impatience.
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Jun 18, 2023 16:24
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every single tank in the game is designed such that they can have a defensive cooldown up at all times without running out. you just rotate between them every pull. i can get not pulling every possible pack because that often requires some amount of dungeon knowledge and skill but there's really no reason not to pull two at once, its easy to manage. if you're a bit nervous about 'screwing up' thats fine but the cure to that is to just do it and realize its easy/dying and having to do a 30 second run back isnt the end of the world if you do screw it up. theres this weird trend on the internet where the solution to anxiety in a consequence free video game isnt to confront the thing giving you anxiety but to tell at other people online about it for encouraging you to confront it. in real life there's a lot of factors that make confronting anxiety sometimes difficult but a video game is a closed system.
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Jun 18, 2023 16:46
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There's only a handful of dungeons in the game that have even one segment where grabbing two packs at once will get a veteran player killed. Bardam's is notable because it has two of them. Besides that, you should really learn to multipull, it's more fun and your party will appreciate it. And if you're that adamant about not wanting to, there's always Duty Support.
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Jun 18, 2023 16:50
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Also like, not saying this to be mean but if you are in anything past ARR and pulling single monsters even if no one says anything they are all silently judging you and probably complaining in their FC chats. Don't be that person!
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Jun 18, 2023 16:52
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first time in a dungeon it is always polite to let people stop and admire poo poo and take in the flavor text but on repeat runs it really is just adding time for zero benefit to single pulling
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Jun 18, 2023 16:52
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Keep in mind that people's intro to dungeons is well before the game designs them around the two-pull standard. You say "go fast or bust" they hear "pull everything in the dungeon at once and explode."
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Jun 18, 2023 17:20
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I hate tanking ARR dungeons because I use bloodwhetting as a crutch
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Jun 18, 2023 17:24
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The main solution is talking to your group. Tell the other players you're new to tanking/to the dungen and while they won't expect you to door-pull, they should tell you that it's safe to pull 2 packs there (or even to just try door-pulls, depending on who's healing and what dungeon you're in). Just try it. Otherwise you'll never learn/adjust to big pulls, and the chance increases you'll run into folks who will get bored and pull three packs ahead. Sometimes this is also healthy because it teaches the other players new stuff too - I've been in many dungeons recently, where a healer was showing habits like spamming cure 1 or medica (2) because why not, it works - and then a seasoned tank comes along, pulls two rooms at once and dies before the first set of cooldowns even wore off. If you challenge them a little with larger pulls, yeah you'll wipe once or twice, but healers can learn about actually healing and DPS will learn to use AoE skills and (ideally, I guess?  ) mitigation buttons like Tactician.
orcane fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jun 18, 2023 |
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Jun 18, 2023 17:48
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Endorph posted:theres this weird trend on the internet where the solution to anxiety in a consequence free video game isnt to confront the thing giving you anxiety but to tell at other people online about it for encouraging you to confront it. in real life there's a lot of factors that make confronting anxiety sometimes difficult but a video game is a closed system.
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Jun 18, 2023 17:49
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Just double pull. Please. It's not hard at all and single pulls are boring as poo poo to the other three members of your party. It's not even about the speed, a single pack does basically no damage so the healer will fall asleep and hitting only three mobs with your AoE as a DPS does not produce the happy chemical. So just double pull. For your sake and your party's sake. It's easy as poo poo, it's the expected standard of all roulette tanks, and you'll make your party happy. You're not the only person in the group and while they don't pay your sub, you don't pay theirs either.
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Jun 18, 2023 17:55
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There's some dungeons where you can do some wild things and pick up more than 2 groups. It's cool when a tank DOES do that, but it's never going to be expected. The norm of 2 groups though is just the baseline standard and fits into how all the later dungeons are designed. It's not a speedrun thing, it's just the basic way the game works.
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Jun 18, 2023 18:20
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If DPS and healer aren't able to cope with 2 group pulls then that is entirely on them and is not a failure on you as a tank
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Jun 18, 2023 18:54
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Getting hit by 6 goblins is functionally identical to getting hit by 3 goblins which is why people don't really have much sympathy for single pulling tanks, is the reality of it. No one expects everyone to wall pull but double pulls add almost no additional difficulty to anyone involved.
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Jun 18, 2023 18:56
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Just keep pulling, we're not in Praetorium to admire the scenery.
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Jun 18, 2023 19:10
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BlazetheInferno posted:Literally the only thing I ask is for people to have a bit of respect when a tank asks to take things a bit slower. if three out of four people would like to go quicker, are they undeserving of respect? are you the only player that must ever be respected? the controversial hot take here is that the tank is not the leader of the party. in fact, nobody is the leader of the party because in a roulette you're four randos who will spend the next 15-20 minutes together and then never see each other again. the other three players have as much, collectively three times more than you, input in how a dungeon goes. they don't know you suffer an anxiety disorder, and frankly even if they did they're under no obligation to become an impromptu therapy session for a stranger just because they clicked the roulette button at the same time as you did. the game puts walls between every two groups of enemies after like level 51to enforce people can't pull too much already. if you can't handle that without suffering genuine mental anguish, then my sincere advice is to not play tank in dungeon roulettes. use duty support, play with friends willing to accomodate you, switch to a different job, but intentionally playing the game wrong and then getting mad at people for getting mad at you isn't gonna make anyone happy
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Jun 18, 2023 19:33
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I'll be honest, I'm sorta overselling my reluctance to multipull. You gotta admit though, that there ARE people out there who are impatient enough that even when a tank IS doing, let's say two pulls at a time, will go out and grab a third or even a forth. I've HAD those people when I've been tanking, and on an occasion when I was in fact doing two pulls at once. I was pissed. Say what you want, I'm one of those people who does not like when other people are pulling for me - especially when I'm already doing the apparently-socially-required thing and pulling multiple packs at a time. I've been in situations where I didn't want to multipull, but didn't say anything, and people started pulling ahead of me. I was frustrated, but I didn't refuse to tank stuff they brought to me; I hadn't said that I wanted to go slower, so whatever. But when I eventually got annoyed enough to ask them to stop pulling for me, they were rude and aggressive about it, and while I can't be certain, may have in fact started pulling faster. One of the things the FF14 community prides itself on is being patient and welcoming and tolerant. This was not that. This was a "gently caress off and pull more, scrub" attitude. People like that are the sort who poison the idea of multipulling in my head, and the spectre of that type of person is honestly where I feel a lot of Tankxiety (not just in me, but in general) comes from. Not from the threat of dying, but because of the assholes who, instead of being kind and encouraging them to go faster don't worry I've got you, will start berating them or start pulling stunts to make their job harder when they're already struggling due to either the fact that they're new, or perhaps just not good at it. Because no one wants to deal with that bullshit; however rare it might be, it IS out there, I've seen it, and often, it's just not worth risking running into one of those fuckers and their negativity. Asking someone to pull more because they can handle it and you can keep them up, and yelling at them to go faster or just pulling for them are two very, very different actions that will provoke very, very different responses. In the end, it's not about what's being requested, it's how. (If it feels like I'm moving goalposts in my arguments, take that as a sign that I'm conceding points. It's just how my brain works in this type of argument.) BlazetheInferno fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jun 18, 2023 |
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Jun 18, 2023 19:39
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Dareon posted:ShB patch trials: I was not expecting a giant robot fight. Moreover, I was not expecting it to be good. I've played entire games in that subgenre that had worse mechanics than that solo duty. The Werlyt plot is legitimately the best Gundam game I've played, and it's not even a Gundam game. GilliamYaeger posted:I hope you enjoyed it, because THAT'S THE ONLY TIME YOU EVER GET TO PILOT IT! I'm still mad about this. Praetorium was bold enough to have an entire mech section too. They know how to do it. They just didn't. Souls, gravity, etc.
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Jun 18, 2023 19:45
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I mean if it's any consolation as a healer main I had to take a break for a week or so after an especially douchy tank started flaming me for not healing him enough. Some people are just dicks, and unfortunately given this is an MMO you're going to run into them sometimes. Up to you what you do with that.
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Jun 18, 2023 19:47
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 And I didn't read this page before posting. Let me make my point by analogy to tabletop.If you're a DM and you're running a story-based political intrigue game, but your players want a hack-and-slash dungeon crawler, you have two options. You can run a hack and slash dungeon crawler, or you can find players who want a political intrigue game. If you persist in running the intrigue game with this group despite the fact that the other people at your table aren't enjoying it, you are the rear end in a top hat. There are people out there who like to take dungeons nice and slow. Find those people, group up with them, and have a good time! But that's not the social norm in duty finder, and if you are inflicting that on others beyond a reasonable* period of time learning your class, it's time to take a step back and either head to duty support or find a group of friends who actually want the slower pace. *: 'Reasonable' is heavily subject to interpretation, but generally speaking it is understood that people will be awkward at first and get more comfortable pushing the pace as they gain experience with the class. You could absolutely exploit the fact that your duty finder group has probably never met you and just say "I'm new!" every time, but this is roughly as scummy as the DM in the analogy above because now you're lying about it to justify making 3 other people conform to your playstyle.
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Jun 18, 2023 19:58
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Last few pages just enforced me in my tankxiety.
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Jun 18, 2023 20:00
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I used to have tankxiety but that disappeared pretty quickly when I actually got into dungeons this game definitely sands off all the rough edges of the dungeon tanking experience to the point where it's widely known to be the easiest role of the three
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Jun 18, 2023 20:31
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Yeah I don't understand tanxiety. You just roundup two or three packs, pop a cooldown and spam aoes.
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Jun 18, 2023 20:40
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It’s unfortunate but if you want to improve as a tank, you have to double pull. It’s the only way you are going to get a feel for the CDs and when to use them. It’s also unfortunate that in terms of tanking complexity the latest dungeons are much better for learning than earlier dungeons, since the jank in ARR dungeons is gonna make the life of a prospective new tank kinda difficult if they don’t know the pulls.
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Jun 18, 2023 20:53
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Szarrukin posted:Last few pages just enforced me in my tankxiety.
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Jun 18, 2023 21:06
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if you spend more than 30 seconds thinking about someone making a dungeon take 8 minutes longer because they arent tanking optimally in your timesink mmo you should log off and get some real problems
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Jun 18, 2023 21:20
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Regalingualius posted:Hell, I was tanking the 69 dungeon for the first time since the revamp last night via mentor roulette, and I felt a bit sheepish when I realized I was single-pulling That dungeon has some weird pull pacing, tbh. I still can't figure out what the point of the Bits are.
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Jun 18, 2023 21:25
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SirSamVimes posted:Yeah I don't understand tanxiety. You just roundup two or three packs, pop a cooldown and spam aoes. Of course, almost none of these problems meaningfully exist in FF14. Dungeons are corridors where you can't really get lost, you can barely skip anything, your progress is usually gated by doors and teleports every 2-3 trash packs, and even if you wipe you only lose a bit of time. Although realistically, you don't outright wipe that often from just dying as a tank thanks to raise. And if someone is hostile about it, you can kick/report/replace the jerk and get someone new to finish your run quickly. But you're still expected to set the pace, which only gets easier with experience. And I actually agree that people are rude if they're trying to force a faster run if you're already doing reasonable multi-pulls and told them so. So, tell them to stop, and by all means kick and report them if they're assholes about it. Still, I'll suggest new tanks to relax and take accidental and intentional adds pulled "for" you as a challenge or a source of excitement, instead of attributing it to malice and getting mad or anxious about it. Sometimes people even have good reasons, eg. if you're working on two packs out of three standing between you and the next door, or there's a patrol that might be annoying to finish with the next pack or might aggro you eventually anyway. Others pulling additional mobs shouldn't really affect your tanking either: A mob attacking the DPS is not making you die faster, if anything it's the healer's job to complain at that point. And if the mobs move through your AoE they will quickly stick to you and you don't have to do any more work than you were already doing.
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Jun 18, 2023 21:29
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SirSamVimes posted:Yeah I don't understand tanxiety. You just roundup two or three packs, pop a cooldown and spam aoes. It comes from trying to tank in mmos like WoW where if you make even a single mistake or don't follow the exact prescribed route you get the most hateful toxic things thrown at you. Speaking from experience, at least.
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Jun 18, 2023 21:32
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I had pretty bad tanxiety in HW and SB when I was a lot newer, but I got over it with enough time (and I don't even play tank very often). I would also get annoyed when people pulled ahead of me, though getting annoyed at that now is generally silly unless people make a habit of it because gaining aggro as a tank has been pretty braindead ever since ShB.
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Jun 18, 2023 21:33
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Arist posted:I had pretty bad tanxiety in HW and SB when I was a lot newer, but I got over it with enough time (and I don't even play tank very often). I would also get annoyed when people pulled ahead of me, though getting annoyed at that now is generally silly unless people make a habit of it because gaining aggro as a tank has been pretty braindead ever since ShB.
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Jun 18, 2023 21:48
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My rule of thumb with tanking in dungeons is to not rush it until you know the healer is comfortable doing so, and you're going to survive, some dungeons can hit pretty hard. When I levelled healers I super hated tanks going full sprint and zooming around corners without checking if I'm following, especially if I told them beforehand to take it slow. Healing gives me much more anxiety than tanking.
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Jun 18, 2023 22:00
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Relyssa posted:It comes from trying to tank in mmos like WoW where if you make even a single mistake or don't follow the exact prescribed route you get the most hateful toxic things thrown at you. Speaking from experience, at least. Also this. Miss a shortcut and terminally online people will throw feces at you like rabid chimps.
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Jun 18, 2023 22:07
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Relyssa posted:It comes from trying to tank in mmos like WoW where if you make even a single mistake or don't follow the exact prescribed route you get the most hateful toxic things thrown at you. Speaking from experience, at least. Szarrukin posted:Also this. Miss a shortcut and terminally online people will throw feces at you like rabid chimps. Oh dungeons here are pretty linear with few exceptions (mostly optional formerly-endgame dungeons in 5678 roulette) so there's not really much to stress about. People in ffxiv are on average a little more chill with the caveat that it's still an mmo
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Jun 18, 2023 22:14
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I say a little more chill but if I'm in a dungeon and the tank only single pulls, even if the healer encourages them to pull doubles, I will absolutely talk about it in FC chat and will usually get a "lol rip" or other joking condolences in response Complaining in private is always your prerogative as a player and this is true of other players too.
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Jun 18, 2023 22:21
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