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If you're a tank who never wants to use even one (1) mitigation cooldown, pulling one pack at a time will get that done. But if you want to push your buttons other than your aoes, you have to use the rest of the buttons they give you. Pulling one at a time won't make you any better or more comfortable as a tank. Pulling two packs will require you to, like, use Arm's Length or Rampart at least once. Imo if you want to tank you should want to hit your buttons
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Jun 18, 2023 22:21
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Really, as healer, my beef is with Tanks that don't park their arse at a boss / paradoxically insist in not dodging the +vuln mechanics. Had a clown yesterday that insisted that him jumping around like a prat aiming Fafnier's mouth cannon at me was fine becaise it "made it more fun" and "its a low level dungeon anyway" ConanThe3rd fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Jun 18, 2023 |
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Jun 18, 2023 22:27
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Szarrukin posted:Last few pages just enforced me in my tankxiety. This whole conversation has me scratching my head because I've tanked nonstop since SHB launched and I have never had a single interaction where someone was rude to me about going faster. It's only ever been " You can big pull, don't worry, I've got you" - if they say anything at all
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Jun 18, 2023 23:21
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I have encountered one group where half the party ran ahead of me tanking and pulled another pack. It was like my fifth actual time tanking, it was in Halatali, and it would have served them right if I'd declined to follow them and instead gone to open a treasure chest. I'm not normally a proponent of "you pull you tank" but getting rescued from two packs into another one soured me to that dude real quick. I don't care if you can keep me alive, I'm already panicking and thinking I just got a huge lag spike and rubberbanded isn't helping. To be clear all my other tanking experiences have been fine, regardless of how many packs I pulled. Dareon fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jun 18, 2023 |
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Jun 18, 2023 23:21
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Dareon posted:I have encountered one group where half the party ran ahead of me tanking and pulled another pack. It was like my fifth actual time tanking, it was in Halatali, and it would have served them right if I'd declined to follow them and instead gone to open a treasure chest. If someone ever did this to me I would just claim I had a giant lag spike and let them die tbh
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Jun 18, 2023 23:23
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Rescue is the most powerful trolling tool at a healer's disposal but I've only ever had it used on me by friends doing stuff like "lets you and me die to ancient flare together" top ten anime betrayals, it's great everytime One time I got them back by making it look like I was going to die to a mechanic in stormblood waterspout on shinryu only to turn on surecast when they tried to save me.
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Jun 18, 2023 23:32
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S.J. posted:If someone ever did this to me I would just claim I had a giant lag spike and let them die tbh you're a dick
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Jun 18, 2023 23:37
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SirSamVimes posted:you're a dick I'm actually super helpful and nice and go out of my way to help people all the time! Thanks for your input
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Jun 18, 2023 23:40
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S.J. posted:This whole conversation has me scratching my head because I've tanked nonstop since SHB launched and I have never had a single interaction where someone was rude to me about going faster. It's only ever been " You can big pull, don't worry, I've got you" - if they say anything at all it's because with some tanks their response to "you can big pull, don't worry" isn't "oh, i'm new on this job and don't really feel comfortable with big pulls yet" or "i'm undergeared because i'm just trying to make it to the next set of tome gear" but rather "i'm only single-targeting mobs at level 80 because that's my preferred play style you don't pay my sub"
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Jun 19, 2023 00:04
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Oneiros posted:"i'm only single-targeting mobs at level 80 because that's my preferred play style you don't pay my sub" Do you see this a lot? I think I've maybe encountered this once, although the person didn't ever say anything in chat.
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Jun 19, 2023 00:07
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Honestly, once you get used to it, dungeon tanking is probably one of the chillest experiences around. You can basically just go on cruise control popping defensives, and you usually get way more room to gently caress up and still survive on bosses than everyone else
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Jun 19, 2023 00:08
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Oneiros posted:it's because with some tanks their response to "you can big pull, don't worry" isn't Please don't forget "gently caress, sorry, I haven't run this dungeon in forever and thought there was an ambush here/forgot there was another straggler/didn't realize that wasn't a wall," a.k.a. me in numbers roulette all the drat time
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Jun 19, 2023 00:11
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S.J. posted:Do you see this a lot? I think I've maybe encountered this once, although the person didn't ever say anything in chat. not a lot but you run enough duties you see all sorts of poo poo usually with single pullers it's just skip buyers or someone who finally rolled a high level dungeon in the daily roulette after thirty levels of sastasha
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Jun 19, 2023 00:12
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People who by their own admission right in the post don't understand tanxiety trying to explain to people with it why it doesn't matter is hilarious. Like most fears it's not a logic problem, you can't get over it by being told to get over it. It's scary. You're in the spotlight as the lead of the party and in your eyes everyone else has these ideas of how things are "supposed" to go and you feel like you simultaneously have to measure up but can't. And people are quick to share their horror stories (I have them too) of party members who, despite the game's reputation, turned to abuse. It's difficult to get a sense of perspective without experience. The only way I've gotten over my own is getting in there and doing it and the world not ending. One step at a time building my own confidence. You don't need to go from basic tank to "I don't even need a healer" all in one go*. --You can pull a group and hold threat while the party beats on them? Great! That's step 1, and believe me there are people who can't do that (this is not a "single-target the tank's target" game, there's a lot of AoE going out and as long as you're hitting yours as well it's mostly gonna work. Those fancy combo rotation buttons they gave you are for bosses). Forgetting to turn tank stance on is a rite of passage, anyone who says they haven't has never played tank or is lying, and that will probably be your first "oh no I'm terrible" reflex that everyone laughs off. They're not humoring you, we really have all been there. --Next up is learning the tag-and-run, getting enough threat on one pack to sprint (as in actually hit Sprint, once you get used to things you can hit it before combat for 10 more seconds) off to the next pack and gather everything together. I find two GCDs and an oGCD works once you have those buttons, but it's common to see people playing it safe as they learn. Lean a little heavier on initial threat if you have a Summoner or Dancer, they can go really heavy from the start (and summoner's not so heavy stuff doesn't unlock until they open with the big ones, makes for fun games of chicken that I always lose because dragon goes brrrrr). If you're doing enough to grab guys (a pox on all body-pullers) and someone gets one off you, they probably know exactly what they did to deserve that. It won't kill them before they can drag it back into your AoE at the next group. --You've got two groups on you now, plus whatever single stuff was in between (more common in ARR). Now hang onto them and stay alive. At the low levels this will mostly be your healer's responsibility, with you not getting much to help, but pay attention to new abilities as they come in. It's usually better to stagger them, try to always have something rolling, it makes you more consistent for the healer to make their own choices. While here, try to keep everything grouped up, it helps everyone with their AoE but some mobs tend to wander. Ideally you're standing on one side of the pack rather than in the middle. --Once you're comfortable there you can start thinking about them in 4-pull blocks, which is the standard before a boss in later dungeons. You don't grab all four at once (you often can't anyway), but your mitigation buttons are on different cooldowns so this step is thinking about leaving things for the next pull and prioritizing the quick-refresh buttons. Every tank gets a 20-30s cooldown button for example, and that can (and often should) be hit every time it's up, but a 2-minute button is only going to be up for one pull. *(I hate doing that BTW, I can play at that level but it takes a lot of attention and effort, healers please be willing to share that load if the tank isn't making a statement. Don't force it on them.)
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Jun 19, 2023 00:29
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BlazetheInferno posted:Say what you want, I'm one of those people who does not like when other people are pulling for me - especially when I'm already doing the apparently-socially-required thing and pulling multiple packs at a time. The first part: Why not? It doesn't seem to be a gameplay mechanics reason at all and your posts have been very "I'm the Main Character" The second part: Dungeon talk is going to be terse by necessity and that can easily be interpeted as rudeness when it's just brevity. Yes they could sugar coat it but also you can just read a healer saying "pull more" or actually doing it themselves as "please pull more, I am dying of boredom over here and I can keep us alive even if you are bad (and you aren't bad or I wouldn't say/do this)"
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Jun 19, 2023 00:50
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Oneiros posted:not a lot but you run enough duties you see all sorts of poo poo I've been playing the game for I think almost 5 years at this point and have only ever encountered someone like that maybe 2 or 3 times at most, is why I ask. I've spent a helluva lot more time reading about it than actually experiencing it.
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Jun 19, 2023 00:50
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GloomMouse posted:The first part: Why not? It doesn't seem to be a gameplay mechanics reason at all and your posts have been very "I'm the Main Character" The first part: Generally because I can't quite shake the "It's fuckin' rude" attitude toward it from my days in WoW, but also it's honestly just a Tankxiety thing. I pull what I'm comfortable with, and if people force me to go faster than that, it feels like the situation has gone bad, even when it hasn't, and is just all-around an unpleasant feeling, because anxiety is not a sensation that obeys logic. It is something that will improve over time, but it is not something that you can simply tell someone to get over and go, because illogical emotional responses simply don't work that way. The Second part: No no, they were very explicitly being insulting and rude, though it was long enough ago that I don't remember specific phrasing. Was a dungeon with particularly LONG stretches between packs, and he would run that mile and back just to bring more pulls to me, also saying outright that he would expect even brand new tanks to "play correctly", referring specifically to wall-to-walling whenever possible. I don't tend to assume hostility from short simple statements. I usually make the attempt to be civil and polite, but I will 100% become a mirror if met with hostility.
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Jun 19, 2023 01:08
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As other folks have said, your personal emotional journey is something that you personally have to come to terms with. However just as anxiety doesn't respond to logic, the actions of 3/4 of the team on a pull don't have anything to do with WoW ptsd flashbacks or w/e. Putting the onus on the others while you sort that out doesn't seem right at all, and if the repeated evidence of you own eyes that things turned out alright isn't enough, then what more can even be done? Also "slowing down a bit" in most post-ARR dungeons is just one pack pulling and I don't know how that would help get past small pulls either You talk as if the non-tank pullers are a recurring problem and while I 100% believe someone was a outright dick, it's not happening all the time in ffxiv. That's why I talked about the other "rude" behavior you might see, and how it's not actually directed rudeness and you are reading into it what isn't there.
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Jun 19, 2023 01:32
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GloomMouse posted:As other folks have said, your personal emotional journey is something that you personally have to come to terms with. You'd be astounded how unlucky some people get, but you are correct - there are people who pull ahead of the tank who aren't trying to be dicks. I don't get hostile unless I ask them to stop (I don't always, and if I don't, I just deal with it or, in fact, speed up) and they respond with actual hostility, and not just two words that might well have an implied "please" attached. As I've said, it is something that will improve with time, and HAS improved over time since I first started tanking. But it's a process. For some people, it's a slow one. And getting angry that the tank doesn't want to wall-to-wall pull will not speed up that process. But look at the number of people who have responded these last few pages with either outright insults, saying "stop having anxiety then and just do it", or ignoring that issue entirely and just saying "it's easy and if you don't do it like this, you're wrong", the last of which is where I sorta got this whole argument started by telling him to piss off with the "my way or the highway" attitude. And I stand by that. Yes, Tankxiety is something where the onus is on the tank to get over it, but I feel like a polite request to speed up isn't hard. Silent judging helps no one. Insults help no one. Assertions that "it's easy and you should already be doing it like this" without knowing why the tank isn't wall-to-walling doesn't help the nervous tank suddenly improve. Gentle nudges to "go faster, I've got you" are all it takes to not be the bad guy. If the tank doesn't respond at all to requests to speed up, or is hostile when asked to pull more, then yes, that tank is the bad guy. But I put effort it to not be that guy, and frankly I've never seen that guy in anyone else. The more I think about it, the more I want to say my objection isn't to being told I should be pulling more. It's people being assholes about it, or just generally giving off an air of "just do it, stupid". Most of the time, if you're not a jerk, and ask me to pull more, I will either oblige, or politely explain that I would rather not, and why. If they press further (without being an rear end in a top hat about it), there is a good chance I will oblige. But if you start throwing insults or just start pulling stuff into me, and either ignore or insult me if I ask you to stop, that's when I get pissed off. BlazetheInferno fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Jun 19, 2023 |
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Jun 19, 2023 02:01
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Im just gonna go ahead and keep not tanking. ggz
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Jun 19, 2023 02:06
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Lazer Viking posted:Im just gonna go ahead and keep not tanking. ggz The fact that multiple people have looked at this argument the last few pages and said "Nope, I'm never tanking, gently caress that" are another point I feel should be pointed out. The fact that the idea of not meeting Social Norm Speedrunning Standards is met with such Parental-style "I'm not mad, just disappointed" when it's not outright hostility is a very convincing argument for many people that "Tanking is a thing I never want to do because I don't want to be on the receiving end of that". People will learn and improve at their own pace, and while some will respond to pressure to push themselves, others are rather... non-newtonian with their learning speed. The more pressure you put on them to improve, the more they will actively resist pushing for the improvement you want to see, out of spite. It's not a conscious decision. It's an automatic response. Hostility is met with hostility. Equal and opposite reaction, whatever science-y sounding or pseudo-scientific bullshit label you want to apply to it.
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Jun 19, 2023 02:14
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just spam aoes with stance on and occasionally hit a cooldown
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Jun 19, 2023 02:19
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I like you. Youre good people.
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Jun 19, 2023 02:19
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this wouldn't have happened if we had a good thread title
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Jun 19, 2023 02:20
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FFXIV New Players Thread: Git Gud
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Jun 19, 2023 02:21
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FFXIV New Players Thread: Talking poo poo about your tanking in FC chat
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Jun 19, 2023 02:23
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I played a bit of Wow Dragonflight between XIV patches and honestly I didn't get much flak despite tanking dungeons as a newbie. Maybe Oceanic servers are just built different. It's also kinda surprising seeing which tank skills cross over between games and which do not. Also, prot pally has like 100 more APM than PLD, it's wild. I don't really care about tanxiety, I just wanted to ramble on a bit about tanking differences between games.
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Jun 19, 2023 02:24
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Ibblebibble posted:I played a bit of Wow Dragonflight between XIV patches and honestly I didn't get much flak despite tanking dungeons as a newbie. Maybe Oceanic servers are just built different. It's also kinda surprising seeing which tank skills cross over between games and which do not. Also, prot pally has like 100 more APM than PLD, it's wild. Honestly, fair. WoW Toxicity is absolutely still a thing, but it's not a guaranteed every time thing, or even guaranteed every other time. It's just more common. Also, the APM thing probably has something to do with WoW's global cooldown being 1.5 seconds rather than FF14 where it's closer to 2.5, and that's before you start stacking haste effects.
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Jun 19, 2023 02:27
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I just don't get what it is about 4 goblins vs 3 that makes people apparently shut down and alt f4 and never tank again. You are hitting AoE and walking around telegraphs except you might hit Rampart too. You fundamentally are not doing ANYTHING different.
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Jun 19, 2023 02:32
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The comment that sometimes you'll indulge your team and let them have bigger pulls is what got to me, personally.
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Jun 19, 2023 02:33
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GloomMouse posted:The comment that sometimes you'll indulge your team and let them have bigger pulls is what got to me, personally. Perhaps a poor choice of words. It wasn't meant to imply some sort of power-fantasy or anything. It was honestly just meant as an "I usually don't like doing this, but I'll give it a try" sort of thing. EDIT: As an aside: Lazer Viking posted:I like you. Youre good people. In all honesty, thanks. This does mean a lot. BlazetheInferno fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jun 19, 2023 |
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Jun 19, 2023 02:37
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Vitamean posted:this wouldn't have happened if we had a good thread title 
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Jun 19, 2023 02:52
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BlazetheInferno posted:I've been in situations where I didn't want to multipull, but didn't say anything, and people started pulling ahead of me. I was frustrated, but I didn't refuse to tank stuff they brought to me; I hadn't said that I wanted to go slower, so whatever. So you were challenged, you succeeded at it, and then got pissy? Why? After level 50, modern dungeon design and modern tank design is specifically designed around (and community expectation is such that) the tank holding W until they meet a physical barrier that stops them from pulling more with vanishingly few exceptions. Failing to meet that expectation is basically saying you are more important than the other three people in the group. This is why people make jokes about tanks having main character syndrome.
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Jun 19, 2023 03:10
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barely anyone even talks in ff14 dungeons like exceptions exist but in my experience even if someone is doing literally everything wrong barely anyone will say anything. ive had tanks that just stand in every single aoe and the healer just pops all their cooldowns and saves swiftcast to insta-rez them on cooldown without saying a word
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Jun 19, 2023 03:20
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Kyrosiris posted:So you were challenged, you succeeded at it, and then got pissy? Why? Because Anxiety doesn't obey logical reasoning, so people should stop trying to use that as a reason why you should just stop having Anxiety? Also, I will point out, I did not "get pissy". I got annoyed enough to ask the person to stop, at which point they responded with hostility.
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Jun 19, 2023 03:22
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BlazetheInferno posted:The fact that multiple people have looked at this argument the last few pages and said "Nope, I'm never tanking, gently caress that" are another point I feel should be pointed out. The fact that the idea of not meeting Social Norm Speedrunning Standards is met with such Parental-style "I'm not mad, just disappointed" when it's not outright hostility is a very convincing argument for many people that "Tanking is a thing I never want to do because I don't want to be on the receiving end of that".
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Jun 19, 2023 03:22
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'cow goes moo' ive got some real fischer-price see'n'sayxiety here, folks, iunno if i can hack this
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Jun 19, 2023 03:23
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dps remains the coolest of the roles and no amount of tank or healer talk has been able to budge me on that stance 
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Jun 19, 2023 03:52
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Sunday Morning posted:dps remains the coolest of the roles and no amount of tank or healer talk has been able to budge me on that stance I main Ninja and I agree with this statement. Part of the reason Gunbreaker is my primary tank job is because it feels like a DPS. (but also because as a roleplayer, my character absolutely loves his Gunblade it is his favorite new toy since he came to Eorzea)
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Jun 19, 2023 03:54
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yeah gunbreaker is my favorite tank for the same reason. i also like using aurora on the healer when they fail to dodge something
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Jun 19, 2023 04:00
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