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Sunday Morning posted:dps remains the coolest of the roles and no amount of tank or healer talk has been able to budge me on that stance Correct.
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Jun 19, 2023 04:58
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I like playing pld in my static because the healers have gotten used to me giving the other tank 30% additional damage reduction for every tankbuster so I get to feel like I'm essential to keep both him and myself alive.
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Jun 19, 2023 05:08
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The bad tanks are the ones who plant down, wait for me to cast a healing bubble then decide they can pull another pack after all
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Jun 19, 2023 05:54
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orcane posted:...Dungeons are corridors where you can't really get lost... That's what you think I have gotten disoriented multiple times in the most linear dungeons/alliance raids, and it sometimes happens even in the very few dungeons I've done to the point where I can tank them in my sleep. You underestimate the capacity of the human brain to suck poo poo at an extremely basic task.
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Jun 19, 2023 06:15
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funny enough the most recent dungeon is good about that kind of thing, with transportation nodes or moving ice sheets guiding your way forward I can occasionally get turned around but I quickly realize I'm going the wrong way when I look at the minimap and see three+ dots going the other way
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Jun 19, 2023 06:40
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dps have a more important role in taking down packs than the healer or tank, the aoe combos and ogcds pump out a lot of damage and if they're playing poorly it can lead to a wipe in quite a few dungeons where you just don't have enough mits and heals. yet, I haven't heard of dpsanxiety
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Jun 19, 2023 07:34
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I honestly think the best way to get around tankanxiety is find a group of friends and run dungeons with them, especially with voice comms available, and try to do the standard 2 pulls per segment thing. Especially in any level 90 dungeons, where you are going to have most of your tools available. I started playing during 5.55, I had a lot of tank anxiety at the start (and still, to some extent, have healer anxiety), and it really helped me that the first dungeons I ever did, I did with people I knew that told me what to do and weren't judgemental when I hosed up, forgot my stance, and got people killed. My first experience with tanking was in WoW, back in Vanilla: I played a warrior for about a month and my first experience tanking was running through some monastery where everyone loving flamed me because I didn't know what I was doing, and I was specced all wrong, and that completely put me off the game and got me kinda scared to tank in most other games. I was similarly apprehensive when I started playing FFXIV, but I do think now that the anxiety was born out of a misapprehension of how relatively easy it is to tank in FFXIV. I do all new content as a tank now, and I can't really remember any time when I got a bad group in duty finder.
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Jun 19, 2023 07:42
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It's cause the spotlight isn't on them, and it won't be obvious it's on them outside of veteran healer/tanks noticing they're having to push more buttons, which also is nonobvious, since the healer/tank can assume it's the other one not pushing their buttons before realizing it's the DPS not pushing their buttons.
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Jun 19, 2023 07:42
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Trash Ops posted:dps have a more important role in taking down packs than the healer or tank, the aoe combos and ogcds pump out a lot of damage and if they're playing poorly it can lead to a wipe in quite a few dungeons where you just don't have enough mits and heals. yet, I haven't heard of dpsanxiety A bad dps isn't obvious, and they mostly interact with themselves. Tanks set the pace and interact with the healer, healer keeps people alive when they're being dumb, it's very easy to feel like you're directly letting people down on those jobs.
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Jun 19, 2023 07:43
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I always blame the dps for not pushing buttons
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Jun 19, 2023 07:43
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It is easy to overthink these things and I say this as a player who's reluctantly gotten into the rhythm of pulling two groups. I do find the runrunrunSTOP pacing a bit weird in any role, like should I try to get anything off or just keep up until we end up wherever, but tanking you can at least keep a steady pace by spamming your AOEs to keep everyone on you. And as has been mentioned, most people won't care, and most people are reasonably polite in chat. Even if you do miss a mitigation ability and die people are generally pretty understanding (especially as this most often happens at the very start, you figure out what pace you're comfortable with and then go on.) Usually only takes a "MB" in chat if you really screw up.
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Jun 19, 2023 08:04
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S.J. posted:Do you see this a lot? I think I've maybe encountered this once, although the person didn't ever say anything in chat. This was literally the person we were bagging on in the thread. The argument boiled down to "I want to go slow, you don't pay my sub." Bruceski posted:People who by their own admission right in the post don't understand tanxiety trying to explain to people with it why it doesn't matter is hilarious. Like most fears it's not a logic problem, you can't get over it by being told to get over it. IMO you kinda fell for the same thing you were criticizing with the rest of your post. It's one thing to mechanically know that you've got all these tools and have empirical evidence presented that your fear is irrational, but as you say it isn't rational and if we're really trying to dig at the heart of tanxiety you should probably take some tips from things like CBT instead. Things like analyzing what your fear is, why you have it, and if you can reframe it somehow. Like Clockwork posted:That's what you think There's a few spots that always get me here until I glance at the minimap and realize I'm running into the same dead end I ran into the last three times. Allarion posted:It's cause the spotlight isn't on them, and it won't be obvious it's on them outside of veteran healer/tanks noticing they're having to push more buttons, which also is nonobvious, since the healer/tank can assume it's the other one not pushing their buttons before realizing it's the DPS not pushing their buttons. And as one of said veteran tanks, is really obvious when things aren't dying as fast as you expect and you start looking at what other people are doing. I had one particularly memorable Castrum run where the BLM didn't know what they were doing, and the TTK and resources I could see on the party frames made this obvious. Like most cases, I just kinda bit the rag and forged ahead, and maybe made fun of them in FC chat. But mostly in a "this poor BLM" way, because I have no experience as BLM and could not even begin to think about how to offer advice. To sum up my thoughts on tankxiety chat though... tanking isn't for everyone, and that is fine. This is the new player thread, not the new tank thread. It's just that the overwhelming majority of "oh god I'm scared" posts come from people thinking about tanking. I feel like DPS is my weakest role personally, and I like tanking more than anything else, so I'm happy to offer my experience to help assuage fears. That said, I can't help someone who does not WANT help. I can't help someone who is going to dig their heels in and commit to staying exactly where they are and refuse to push themselves past their current comfort zone. And I take a specific ire when said person wants three other random people to conform to that without the prior choice to opt-out. Which is what duty finder is. There's a set of social norms involved in doing roulettes, and a steadfast refusal to even try to adapt to those norms suggests that either the role or the roulette format isn't right for that person. Which is fine. FF14 has a lot of classes, and another role might suit running roulettes better for this person. Save the slow-burn tanking style for running with like-minded friends if that's how you want to play. But attempting to tell three other people you were randomly matched with to play in a way that runs contrary to these norms, when your reasoning is "because this is how I want to play" is outright rude. People never gave me poo poo for wanting to take it slow when I was new to 14. I'd say, "Hey, I'm new, I'm taking it a bit slow. Let me know if there's anything I should know." And people would be like, "Alright cool, hey this boss has a mechanic and you should do..." and it went great. I got more comfortable, started being able to push myself further, eventually to the point where I could tank at the level set by those norms. I kept pushing myself further because that's what I like, and performing impossible feats of survival is part of the tank class fantasy for me. I honestly can't remember if there was a time where someone was an actual rear end in a roulette because of something I did as a tank. I vaguely recall a time when someone just tilted off in party chat and I fired off a vote kick which instantly succeeded, but that might just be a fever dream of mine, or me thinking of another game. Anyway, the point of this screed is that if you're not interested in trying to resolve the anxiety and grow as a tank, maybe tanking isn't for you. You can't force yourself to do something you don't want to do, but in the case of a tank this is like playing a healer and refusing to use damaging spells because your role is 'healer.' If you don't want to learn and improve to the point where you can play the role the way it is designed, you should take a step back and ask yourself if that role is actually the role you want to play. This... Lazer Viking posted:Im just gonna go ahead and keep not tanking. ggz ...is a perfectly valid answer to that question. Maybe not the most satisfying one, but FF14 has a SHITLOAD of stuff to do that isn't 'be the tank.'
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Jun 19, 2023 08:25
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Warmachine posted:That said, I can't help someone who does not WANT help. I can't help someone who is going to dig their heels in and commit to staying exactly where they are and refuse to push themselves past their current comfort zone. And I take a specific ire when said person wants three other random people to conform to that without the prior choice to opt-out. Which is what duty finder is. There's a set of social norms involved in doing roulettes, and a steadfast refusal to even try to adapt to those norms suggests that either the role or the roulette format isn't right for that person. Which is fine. FF14 has a lot of classes, and another role might suit running roulettes better for this person. Save the slow-burn tanking style for running with like-minded friends if that's how you want to play. But attempting to tell three other people you were randomly matched with to play in a way that runs contrary to these norms, when your reasoning is "because this is how I want to play" is outright rude. The rude one is the person expecting every tank to speedrun dungeons and pull everything. Yes it's the "norm" from roulette goers perspective because they want their daily dungeon to go fast (and they are probably the same fuckers who disrobe in alliance roulette to avoid any interesting content), but not wanting to do multipull is perfectly fine and at no point is it egocentrism "you don't pay my sub". You all need to realize you don't get always matched with other roulette players who are 90 on every job.
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Jun 19, 2023 08:34
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Zanael posted:The rude one is the person expecting every tank to speedrun dungeons and pull everything. Hence my comment that telling people that you're new/learning/whatever generally works. My beef is that the person in question does not seem to want to try and get past the problem, and wants three people who did not sign up for that to conform to them. Read the rest of my post. poo poo, I'm not even 90 on every TANK job, let alone the rest of them. So that's some quality straw you've got there.
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Jun 19, 2023 08:38
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Saying that pulling 2 packs is "speedrunning" is some true hyperbole. People get annoyed at single pulling not because they want to get through their dailies as fast as possible, but mostly because single pulling is kinda boring for everyone involved. It's the norm because both the kits and the dungeons themselves are designed so that two-pulling is pretty easy to do, although still requiring some use of your CDs. Comparing people that are kinda expecting the two pack pulls to people that deliberately remove kit in order to get CT is some really weird, projecting poo poo.
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Jun 19, 2023 08:46
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Arguing about this topic on forums is near constant when it's a non issue 99% of the time in game.
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Jun 19, 2023 08:56
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A slow tank is just kind of a grin and bear it inconvenience for most players. A slow dps is the sort of problem that creeps up on you, like the tank and healer have a growing sense of dread that this pull that should only take two minutes is for some reason taking five, and this boss is living long enough that we're seeing it cycle through its mechanics a third time. A slow tank is just something everyone just sort of knows how to deal with. A slow dps is something that gets people trying to figure out what's going on, and they'll absolutely talk about it in FC chat or discord too.
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Jun 19, 2023 09:05
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Sometimes the answer is they don't use aoes on packs. Sometimes the answer is this trial doesn't have a minimum gear level and these poor suckers queued up for trial rou while powerleveling a class faster than they could get gear for it.
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Jun 19, 2023 09:08
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Allarion posted:It's cause the spotlight isn't on them, and it won't be obvious it's on them outside of veteran healer/tanks noticing they're having to push more buttons, which also is nonobvious, since the healer/tank can assume it's the other one not pushing their buttons before realizing it's the DPS not pushing their buttons. the thing is, the spotlight isn't on anyone in a roulette dungeon. the tank isn't the leader of the party and nobody looks at them for guidance. most people just tune out when they're doing roulettes and only pay attention to their fellow players when things are out of the ordinary. this can be a tank single-pulling. this can also be a pull taking appreciably longer than it should and you're suddenly extremely cognizant of the fact the dragoon is doing their single target rotation when there's a dozen enemies to aoe down that's the paradox of the whole tanxiety thing. people won't notice you if you double-pull. you'll become just another face in the crowd to them. at the end of the dungeon they'll comm you because tanks are the first on the list, and if you ask them two seconds after leaving the dungeon what race your character is they'll say "uhhh, a catgirl i think?" even if you played the most garishly-dressed roegadyn ever.
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Jun 19, 2023 12:10
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the only difference is that dps players aren't aware that everyone is silently judging them for failing to do their core job mechanics while some tank players hyperfixate on the idea that they're seen even when they're not and everyone's busy judging the ice-only black mage
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Jun 19, 2023 12:16
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this whole conversation is a mindfuck because level 37 warrior sprouts who are still wearing the Brand New gear double pull, in my experience
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Jun 19, 2023 12:42
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Trash Ops posted:dps have a more important role in taking down packs than the healer or tank, the aoe combos and ogcds pump out a lot of damage and if they're playing poorly it can lead to a wipe in quite a few dungeons where you just don't have enough mits and heals. yet, I haven't heard of dpsanxiety I have dpsanxiety from to many years of logs in WoW so I tank in EX fights instead of worrying I am not doing enough DPS to hit the enrage timers.
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Jun 19, 2023 13:43
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When I first ran through the MSQ during 5.0, I exclusively played PLD and I single-pulled everything up through the level 79 dungeon. People said to me "hey you can pull more" but I didn't really know what that meant, and they usually told me too late into a dungeon run to meaningfully act on that information. I figured nobody died so everything was cool, I still got commendations, and so on. It wasn't until I hit the 79 dungeon and the healer told me point blank "you need to pop sprint, round up the mobs, and rotate your cooldowns - I have faith that you can do this and I've got your back" that I successfully executed my first wall pull. It was a really good feeling, and then became something I attempted on every pull as a self-perceived display of mastery. Ironically, this was not mastery per se, but was simply a soft skill of tanking I had not previously learned, akin to "point the boss away from the group" and "try to stand still so melee DPS can hit positionals." In mastering this, I had overcome a deficit and reached a socially-acceptable level of tanking skill. This, to my eyes, is an unambiguously good thing - I, like many of you tanxious folks, am eager to not be a liability to the group. The remedy to tanxiety is equal parts knowledge, execution, and communication - and once the tanxiety dragon is slain, it stays slain. I encourage you to slay your dragons. Like that enlightened healer said to me years ago, I have faith in you and I know you can do it. Also, as an aside, you might die during the learning process because you screw up. Or maybe your healer is sleepy (or, worse, an honest healer). Or maybe your DPS have only half of their abilities mapped. This doesn't excuse you from learning how to wall pull, and in fact is the time that you should see what kind of tank heroics you can pull off. But it is okay to laugh when it all goes sideways and the party wipes. Think of the run back as a brief moment of reflection. edit: DelphiAegis posted:One of the problems with FFXIV's tanxiety players is that tanking (most) ARR dungeons do not follow the conventions of later dungeons where it's 1-2.5 packs of mobs before a proper "wall". So new tanks hear "wall to wall pulling" and try that for something like Halitali and get splatted. Which puts them off from tanking even further. At least it did for me at first. I should clarify my above points somewhat: this quote is 100% correct. In ARR content (particularly 1-49), you generally don't have all the tools you need to survive a wall-pull. This is expected, and wall-pulling is not the norm here, though it's not impossible if everybody in the group is playing reasonably well. Try it sometime if the healer is on board (since they'll have to work a little harder than usual). Zanael posted:The rude one is the person expecting every tank to speedrun dungeons and pull everything. Let's talk about norms. Wall-pulling as a tank in Final Fantasy XIV is a norm. Not picking your nose in public is a norm. If you break the norm, at worst, people are going to be annoyed with you, though chances are likely that you'll never even know that they are. If you're a baby sprout/a three year old, then breaking the norm is expected because you don't know any better, or you might not have the personal or social tools you need to follow the norm. Once you're in Stormblood/middle school, you should have the tools you need to successfully avoid breaking the norm at all times, and you may get some negative feedback if you do not follow the norm. Maybe in the past you had somebody pull extra mobs onto you/hand you a tissue when you broke the norm, and they may or may not have been passive-aggressive while doing so, but that is a response to you breaking the norm and a social cue that you should heed. If that person curses you out/punches you in the nose, perhaps you should alert the appropriate authorities and consider that that's not a reflection on you and not take it personally. Maybe you want to single-pull during Duty Support or Trusts/pick your nose at home, and buddy, that isn't my business. If doing so means you then wall-pull during roulettes/don't pick your nose in public, heck, I support you wholeheartedly you little degenerate. Not all norms are good norms (looking at you, Primal tanking Bone Dragon in the north). But most norms are social control exerted to weed out bad behavior without descending into violence, and flaunting norms doesn't always make you the underdog hero of the story. Please be respectful of other people. Lisztless fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Jun 19, 2023 |
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Jun 19, 2023 14:07
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One of the problems with FFXIV's tanxiety players is that tanking (most) ARR dungeons do not follow the conventions of later dungeons where it's 1-2.5 packs of mobs before a proper "wall". So new tanks hear "wall to wall pulling" and try that for something like Halitali and get splatted. Which puts them off from tanking even further. At least it did for me at first. To me, there's really two sets of dungeon designs, the early ARR ones with alternate paths and extra packs, and most HW dungeons and onward. They play so differently from each other when it comes down to the general flow. But they're all designed in such a way that if everyone's doing at least 50% at their job that you'll clear without any trouble.
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Jun 19, 2023 14:09
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Endorph posted:this whole conversation is a mindfuck because level 37
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Jun 19, 2023 14:11
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Do the people opposed to multi-pulling also get upset at people asking them to use Fire IV on BLM or generate Nadis on MNK? Because that's how those classes are intended to play and two-pulling is how tanks are intended to play.
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Jun 19, 2023 14:33
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I once was paired with a BLM in Expert Roulette that was straight up freestyling. Like, single target on mobs, AOE on bosses, no discernible ice or fire phase, just hitting buttons BLM. I didn’t say anything, not because I wasn’t internally dying as everything took five minutes longer, but because I was also playing BLM and trying to actually do my rotation. Also I’m not sure how to type the entirely of how to play BLM while also hitting buttons on my controller at the same time.
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Jun 19, 2023 15:12
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I remember when I ran a leveling roulette as healer and got into Sastasha, I was pretty experienced at the time, and apparently the tank was too, because they said in chat "hey, do you want to see me wall pull this dungeon?" and I was like "sure!" and it went good.
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Jun 19, 2023 15:17
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hopeandjoy posted:I once was paired with a BLM in Expert Roulette that was straight up freestyling. Like, single target on mobs, AOE on bosses, no discernible ice or fire phase, just hitting buttons BLM. I didn’t say anything, not because I wasn’t internally dying as everything took five minutes longer, but because I was also playing BLM and trying to actually do my rotation. BLM was the class that made me understand the whole "moments between the seconds" stuff a certain someone was talking about because goddamn I just need another half a second to get my sixth F4 off and i just dropped leylines you pieCE OF poo poo BOSS WHY DIDNT TRIPLE CAST GO OFF I HIT THE BUTTON YOSHIDA YOU FFFFFFUCK
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Jun 19, 2023 16:07
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a cartoon duck posted:even if you played the most garishly-dressed roegadyn ever. You rang? 
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Jun 19, 2023 18:11
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ARR dungeon big pulls sometimes even have sack strats if there's no wall between the mobs and the boss room. The tank grabs every mob on the way to the boss, no one presses any buttons except for sprint, and then you let the tank die in the boss room. All the mobs leash and return, healer presses rez and you've skipped all the mobs. Usually only sees use during repeated moogle tomestone farms when the party isn't doing blue mage stuff. An alternative version is grabbing packs and killing them in such a way that only one or two stragglers remain before the boss room, engaging the boss, then letting the 15 second wall timer expire with the tank sitting on the edge so the straggling mobs get locked out. Brayflox hard did this due to how some mobs dropped keys, but I don't think boss lockout was used much elsewhere. Thankfully, neither of these have become the norm for standard dungeon runs because they are a lot more unintuitive than wall to wall.
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Jun 19, 2023 18:15
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Could someone repost that Blue Mage effort post about getting started with the job? I'm having a hard time locating it
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Jun 19, 2023 18:45
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God Hole posted:Could someone repost that Blue Mage effort post about getting started with the job? I'm having a hard time locating it Here ya go
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Jun 19, 2023 18:59
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Does anyone have any resources for getting better at PVP? I've hated PVP until recently, having just discovered how much fun MCH can be.
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Jun 20, 2023 05:34
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reversefungi posted:Does anyone have any resources for getting better at PVP? I've hated PVP until recently, having just discovered how much fun MCH can be. It depends on if you're playing CC or Frontline; MCH always boils down to 'stand behind your team and be a jerk-rear end picking folks off and racking up damage/kills', but the intricacies change a lot based on either mode. Basically, although it's rather obvious, you want to be thinking at all times what you can do to *not die*, considering you're made of tissue paper and a prime target. CC survival becomes about total understanding of the map and when/where to back off, while in Frontline, it's about not dying so you don't lose your Battle High. MCH in Frontline is basically worthless until it gets a few ranks of BH, when it turns into a golden god that mulches people with no recourse. MCH is really really hard to pull off well, but I can say as someone on the receiving end that a skilled MCH is the most terrifying job in the game by far. If anything I might actually recommend picking a different, simple job like WAR (it's just dives, AOEs, and a pull) and focusing MCHs down so you can understand their weaknesses from the other side. Kite Pride Worldwide fucked around with this message at 12:23 on Jun 20, 2023 |
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Jun 20, 2023 12:15
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God Hole posted:Could someone repost that Blue Mage effort post about getting started with the job? I'm having a hard time locating it I'd add to that: How to learn each spell Carnivale Guide
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Jun 20, 2023 13:19
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this is good stuff, much appreciated!
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Jun 20, 2023 18:50
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my favorite wall 2 wall pull as a tank or healer is the full wall to wall (and I do mean all the way to the wall  ) after the first encounter in the lvl 75 dungeon.
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Jun 20, 2023 19:53
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Hyper Inferno posted:ARR dungeon big pulls sometimes even have sack strats if there's no wall between the mobs and the boss room. The tank grabs every mob on the way to the boss, no one presses any buttons except for sprint, and then you let the tank die in the boss room. All the mobs leash and return, healer presses rez and you've skipped all the mobs. Usually only sees use during repeated moogle tomestone farms when the party isn't doing blue mage stuff. this strategy works marvelously in cutter's cry. you can skip 100% of the trash between the second and third boss by just activating the teleporters (caster with sleep helps tons), and 100% of the trash between the third and last boss by doing a tank sac. i encourage people to do both whenever i get it in roulettes ever since they took mob XP away.
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Jun 20, 2023 22:49
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Frida Call Me posted:this strategy works marvelously in cutter's cry. you can skip 100% of the trash between the second and third boss by just activating the teleporters (caster with sleep helps tons), and 100% of the trash between the third and last boss by doing a tank sac. i encourage people to do both whenever i get it in roulettes ever since they took mob XP away. Personally, I despise that strategy precisely because it never goes as planned - that and half the time they don't actually tell people they're doing it in the first place.
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Jun 20, 2023 23:21
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