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Already got a Vagrant Story vibe from the demo, but I'm 8h in and that vibe has only gotten stronger. I'm delighted. I do have criticisms - e.g. exploring isn't as rewarding as in other games, combat is often rote, etc. - but overall it's extremely my jam. The performances are spot on, the music's top notch, and the world is fascinating.
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Jun 23, 2023 14:50
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I said come in! posted:Absolutely play FFXIV, the game is free for the first like 100+ hours. I regret wasting my trial period, I wanted to level fisher past 60 and I wasn't even at level 40MSQ. Could have milked at least 200 hours from it easily since I didn't focus solely on msq.
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Jun 23, 2023 14:51
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I guess my biggest complaint is the use of the map instead of having bigger areas that flow into each other. Not so much open world but just slightly larger would have been good. The map does look nice though tbh
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Jun 23, 2023 14:52
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skipped around the vid to see what he says, landed on "just like ff14 (good)" and "just like ff14 (bad)" 3 times in the first 15 minutes, so yea thanks for the deep dive into ff14
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Jun 23, 2023 14:55
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Many of the side quests are like shallow mmo side quests. You also don’t have to do most of the side quests if you don’t want to and they clearly signpost side quests that unlock important things…soooooooooooooooooooooo who fuckin’ cares. Like seriously the amount of xp you get from side quests is paltry and you swim in crafting materials just from playing the game. Otherwise the gameplay is nothing like FFXIV.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:01
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TBF, I don't think it's really FF14 good or bad, and I think the person who linked SkillUp's review did it a disservice by saying that's what the criticism is. What it boils down to is that FF16 does not leverage a lot of its cinema skill outside of cutscenes and big combat moments. Essentially, the formula goes "The big cutscenes are there to create investment and everything in between is to fill in the worldbuilding details". Which means that the prerequisite to getting through most of the in-between moments is investment in the world, and that's really hard in a setting that is not really centered on wonder. There's a lot of growing pains here trying to leverage a more bleak, dour world when mixed with FF's storytelling formula which always relied on grandness or humor/quirkiness to carry its more traditional JRPG game structure. The combat also runs into an issue trying to leverage the FF concept with its innovations. Part of the thing about DMC vs, say, GoW is that (and I'm going to be bashing GoW with this) is that the RPG progression of GoW is about as deep as a puddle. It's really pointless and, if you have any experience in theorycrafting at all, deeply unsatisfying. But that's not the point, because, regardless of how deep it is to dive into, it's apparent. You can be super bad at action games or have no head for numbers and still feel like you're making progress. DMC never really does that; yes, there's some progression, but the outlet to player creativity/tinkering is this huge toolset of moves and you're meant to explore all the crazy stuff, by evolving the invisible "player skill" meter. But that makes progression in a player's ability pretty unapparent if they don't know what to look for. FFXVI carries this problem from its DMC bloodline, but FFXVI also has to design for those who are newer/less experienced with action games, so it tries to make Eikon moves the centerpiece of the progression and more "apparent". But this gives off an impression of overcentralizing on Eikon CDs and up-time when it's really not (the SkillUp review is mostly wrong on this from a skilled player's point of view, but really right on this from a "I just want to progress" point of view). The comparison to FF14 is really not fair because a lot of the things that FFXVI struggles with are wholly unique to its situation, both in combat, and what kind of story it tries to express. It just happens to be applying a FF14 square peg to the round hole of FFXVI sometimes in the storytelling, and a star-shaped DMC peg to that same hole. Sometimes the peg fits, sometimes it doesn't. AncientSpark fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Jun 23, 2023 |
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Jun 23, 2023 15:07
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SettingSun posted:The first real boss kicked my rear end, twice. Mainly it's the dodging I'm still getting used to and I just ate hits the whole time. Even for bads like me the game is very lenient on restart. Fights are checkpointed and if you exhaust your potions the game will helpfully just give you more. I'm sure the higher difficulties change that but it's really nice for me. Yeah, I think it’s the legacy of FF that combat is not to be difficult to progress, and you can make your own difficulty by setting constraints on yourself.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:08
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VanillaGorilla posted:Otherwise the gameplay is nothing like FFXIV. I haven't and won't watch the review but it's fun to see in all the details, like how you turn in quest items and how the stages are Ff14 dungeons with three bosses
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Jun 23, 2023 15:10
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The impression I've gotten so far is that the production value is incredibly lush, but the game design so far has been surprisingly lean and spare. Equipment is perfunctory, and playstyle variety is determined through your skill loadout. Torgal is basically the chocobo companion from FF14 in terms of party member interactivity. Cid and Jill and whoever else eventually joins are cool characters, but you don't really interact with them in combat mechanically. So far there have not been any context-specific coordinated attacks with them or anything either. Like, they're here on the battlefield and doing damage, but it doesn't really feel like you're fighting alongside them. I'm enjoying the game but I feel like a lot of its design elements are locked in place by its character action gameplay. Part of me can't help but imagine a version of the game with FF7R style combat, where you have party members with different roles and teamwork is needed to survive in a harsh world. Even just FF7R's weapon system would be great, where like, maybe Clive only has greatswords, but each one has a different focus and there's granular character personalization involved. But that's ultimately just personal preference, this game is going for a very specific thing. Like in a way it is maybe better to think of it as an iteration on Nier and Nier Automata. I'm only just past the 3rd eikon battle though, so maybe this all changes.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:17
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I'm not watching a 43 minute video but based on the comments here, in particular AncientSpark's, it sounds like those guys only played 3 other Final Fantasy games and 2 of them were 7.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:20
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Geckoagua posted:Skillup review dropped, and I don't want to yuck any yum but I agree with all of it. I really am not seeing as much as people in this thread are seeing in FFXVI, so much of it feels directly lifted from FFXIV which is incredibly dated in itself. Maybe FF just ain't for me anymore. Interesting points about the game design, regardless of where you fall on opinion though. 'we've lost one of the greatest RPG series ever' lmfao
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Jun 23, 2023 15:26
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RIP Final Fantasy. Taken from us too soon.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:28
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Endorph posted:'we've lost one of the greatest RPG series ever' lmfao jfc is that an actual quote the series reinvents itself with every loving entry! every sub-entry even! why do people keep pretending to be surprised by it
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Jun 23, 2023 15:28
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Endorph posted:'we've lost one of the greatest RPG series ever' lmfao seems like a very melodramatic reaction to two games in a row in series of sixteen games (absolutely more, but we're counting weird here) being action focused also, when was FF a serious, deep RPG series, cause, uhhhhh
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Jun 23, 2023 15:28
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Here's the thing - if you want to play Final Fantasy V, VI, or VII, then let me tell you: Square is more than happy to sell you those loving games again for the 19th time.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:29
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They didn't even stop making games like those. They just stopped naming them Final Fantasy. Go play Octopath Traveler 2 (I haven't played this yet I should take my own advice)
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Jun 23, 2023 15:32
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Arist posted:seems like a very melodramatic reaction to two games in a row in series of sixteen games (absolutely more, but we're counting weird here) being action focused To be honest I doubt we go back from the action genre. But this was kind of inevitable so I don’t know why people are suprised
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Jun 23, 2023 15:34
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Final Fantasy XIII was bad because it never slowed down and let you explore the world. FFXV was bad because all it let you do was slow down and explore the world FF16 is bad because you have a mix of fast paced linear segments and slower world building.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:35
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I did watch the whole video because generally speaking I like SkillUp. He does not recommend XVI for a lot of reasons that I think sum up to a betrayal of his expectations. -Heavily skewed cutscene/gameplay ratio. He notes that this in of itself is not a criticism if there is an open post-game after the story to enjoy the systems, which this game lacks. -No party members, both in combat and narratively. -Puddle deep itemization. -Heavy character action focus combined with a lack of more complex tactics like elemental resistance/vulnerability and character development strips the game of its RPGness. -Lame sidequests with poor rewards. -No real exploration of field areas. For praise he loves the presentation, the music, the load times, and the combat on a broad level.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:35
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SettingSun posted:I did watch the whole video because generally speaking I like SkillUp. He does not recommend XVI for a lot of reasons that I think sum up to a betrayal of his expectations. ... What? You absolutely have party members narratively. You can argue about AI in combat but the characters are literally part of the narrative the entire time they are in your party.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:37
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CharlestheHammer posted:To be honest I doubt we go back from the action genre. But this was kind of inevitable so I don’t know why people are suprised but yeah, it really seems like people who have very little experience of the series outside of the big entries because ff16 is extremely in the mold of crisis core, type-0, stranger of paradise, and 13-3. (and dirge of cerberus but i dont think i wanna mention that one.) like crisis core especially is an extremely beloved entry in the series in japan, i dont think its unreasonable for a mainline game to explore that solo character action, stripped back rpg elements direction more. screaming about how parties are dead forever because one game was largely solo. i wonder what the reaction would have been if ff tactics had been ff8. 'oh, so now everything's grid-based? forever?'
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Jun 23, 2023 15:37
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ImpAtom posted:... What? You absolutely have party members narratively. Skill-up brutally ethering Torgal, just unforgivable. Also Jill, Cid, Gav, and poo poo I'm only like 10 hours in.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:38
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He said it, not me. I do disagree with him.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:38
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pezzie posted:They didn't even stop making games like those. They just stopped naming them Final Fantasy. Go play Octopath Traveler 2 (I haven't played this yet I should take my own advice) It's easily my GOTY, such a beautiful, lively fantasy world especially for a game of its style. Thinking about doing another run after I get through XVI.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:38
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SettingSun posted:-Heavily skewed cutscene/gameplay ratio. SettingSun posted:-No party members, both in combat and narratively. SettingSun posted:-Puddle deep itemization. SettingSun posted:-Heavy character action focus combined with a lack of more complex tactics like elemental resistance/vulnerability and character development strips the game of its RPGness.. SettingSun posted:-Lame sidequests with poor rewards. SettingSun posted:-No real exploration of field areas.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:41
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Endorph posted:the deep complex tactics of hitting the water boss with a lightning spell for more damage. no ff game has really had complex strategy. like he mentions 'debuffs' and who on planet earth has ever used a debuff in an ff game? Debuffs are pretty important in FFXIII but that's about it (not counting rebalance mods like FFXII Struggle for Freedom or whatever since those are mods and not representative of the games themselves)
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Jun 23, 2023 15:42
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XVI kinda makes up for Tales of Arise for me. I get a Tales vibe from this and I’m loving with it.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:43
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Harrow posted:Debuffs are pretty important in FFXIII but that's about it (not counting rebalance mods like FFXII Struggle for Freedom or whatever since those are mods and not representative of the games themselves)
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Jun 23, 2023 15:44
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Endorph posted:eh. i doubt they'll ever go full turn-based again but i could see them making it something closer to tales with more delineated rpg battles than 7r or this, even if combat is still real time. Yeah, there's absolutely no problems with solo focus/action focused gameplay, and it's clear that FF has done it before, albeit with a very different mix of foci (it wasn't running in the spectacle fighter bloodline in quite the same way). Overall, I do like FFXVI a fair bit. It's just my opinion that FFXVI does not execute a lot of the shift in focus perfectly, because there's a lot of invisible advantages that the mainline FF formula was carried by in its formula, and some of those invisible advantages were not fully compensated with the shift in storytelling genre/combat (for example, JRPG tropes are silly, but charming silly when the world is less serious, but quite a bit more dissonant when the world is not). It can be sometimes a bit weird when trying to separate the FF purists screaming at the top of their lungs that "THIS IS NOT FINAL FANTASY" vs those who are trying to analyze what the shift in FFXVI's direction does on a more technical level in writing/gameplay. AncientSpark fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Jun 23, 2023 |
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Jun 23, 2023 15:45
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Endorph posted:ff13 debuffs are sorta weird because they arent really optional things that are a part of strategic depth like in some turn based RPGs, there being a whole class based around them makes them pretty core to the experience imo. so they kinda feel different to like, casting Slow or whatever True, I was about to add on that they just feel like a core stage of combat and not really something you do to gain a strategic edge. It's as much foundational to FFXIII's combat as the stagger mechanic is--not some strategic thing you do to get an edge but just part of the default flow.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:45
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Skeezy posted:XVI kinda makes up for Tales of Arise for me. I get a Tales vibe from this and I’m loving with it. If you're into Tales games I'd recommend Ys8 or 9, they scratched an itch I also felt from Arise. Much less grand than XVI of course, but they're action heavy games with an emphasis on exploration.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:46
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AncientSpark posted:Yeah, there's absolutely no problems with solo focus/action focused gameplay, and it's clear that FF has done it before, albeit with a very different mix of foci (it wasn't running in the spectacle fighter bloodline in quite the same way. Overall, I do like FFXVI a fair bit. I am genuinely curious, what FF worlds are not serious? Even like FF9 has genocides and tragedy
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Jun 23, 2023 15:48
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ImpAtom posted:I am genuinely curious, what FF worlds are not serious? I didn't say not serious, I said "less serious"; there is a difference there. For example, obviously World of Ruin in FF6 is an apocalypse, obviously the intro to FF6 is extremely somber, but the aesthetics of FF6 is quite a bit more light before WoR, there's more time devoted to outright "And now we faff about for silly poo poo" for a while (like the whole meeting Gau thing), things like that. FFXVI has its humorous moments, but the balance is shifted quite a bit. Most of the humor is really devoted to funny lines or funny reactions rather than outright humorous situations, for example (no crossdressing Cloud moment in FFXVI). AncientSpark fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Jun 23, 2023 |
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Jun 23, 2023 15:51
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Like 10 hours in, just unlocked limit breaking and I'm... liking it but I have very mixed feelings about it so far. The combat is stellar but not being able to rebind buttons is loving killing me. The left dpad toggle between items and dog abilities in particular is a constant frustration. Old muscle memory from other games means I occasionally hit left dpad to switch eikons and then oops i've drunk all my potions. But drat does it feel good to play a proper character action game again. Also on controls, Clive's movement sucks. Just give me a sprint button so I can toggle it on and off as I please. The graphics are simultaneously incredible but also bad. Lot of times I'll look out at a vista and take in the lighting and be like hot drat this game is gorgeous! And then I will talk to an npc with a text bubble over their head and I am instantly transported to the bygone era of Oblivion because the facial animations are lousy. Thankfully fine in actual cutscenes at least. Also on a subjective level, even if the graphics are technically great, I just do not care about this medieval times aesthetic. FF to me has always been at it's best when it blends tech and magic and The Fallen stuff just isn't doing it for me, fake-rear end promyvions! The story is good I guess, but it's so incredibly dour. GoT influence definitely obvious, but I don't like GoT so this isn't a plus. The basic theme is something I would be all-in on under normal circumstances but (vague, non-specific but indicative of how the plot goes for the first chunk) Just give us a drat win already. It's all just misery and tragedy 24-7. Also see a lot of similarities to 14 here and there, but this isn't a plus either, it kinda makes me feel like been there done that. Biggest disappointment is probably the music, which isn't to say it's bad, it's just bland. Soken either didn't want/wasn't allowed to go with a variety of styles it seems and it kinda makes everything just blend together. Also big annoyed with the big cool dramatic music that plays whenever you are doing eikon stuff narratively has a riff on Revenge of the Horde and I cannot unhear it. Playing on, mostly because the combat fuckin slaps and I am hopeful things will take a turn for the better soon with the plot. If nothing else, Cid and Clive are cool. Jill not so much, wish her VA wasn't giving such a flat performance.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:51
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i think its less about the literal things that happen in the world and more the atmosphere and how the presentation depicts that world. you can have a series set in the modern day that feels more intense and heavy than a story set in hell with demons tearing people apart for instance. i can get saying this game's atmosphere feels heavier than most ff games.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:51
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To be fair a lot of fantasy worlds have bad poo poo happen but still maintain a weirdly upbeat tone. It’s just a byproduct of the adventure genre I guess
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Jun 23, 2023 15:51
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Endorph posted:i think its less about the literal things that happen in the world and more the atmosphere and how the presentation depicts that world. you can have a series set in the modern day that feels more intense and heavy than a story set in hell with demons tearing people apart for instance. i can get saying this game's atmosphere feels heavier than most ff games. I can see in some cases but we're coming off FFXV which I think was at least as dark while also having a cup noodle quest and people's response to the latter was loving it enough they gave you a hat. The earlier games that were cute sprites I can see but FFX onwards are all crazy dark.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:54
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16's RPG systems are a little disappointing but in the sense that if things are gonna be this stripped down I'd prefer them to go harder in that direction rather than keep busywork around out of obligation. Either make it even more action gamey in that regard or come up with new systems that better fit how the game works, like eschewing traditional gear and making it entirely about trading off bonuses to Eikon effectiveness and CD reduction. But even then if you want an FF that's a more balanced action-RPG, 7R is right there. We're getting two more of them in the short- and medium- term, and 17 is very likely to be different than any immediately prior games.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:56
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All FF games should steal 7R's weapon system.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:57
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I am adoring XVI, though design-wise this is very much a PS2 game wrapped in better graphics and load times. And you know what? I kinda love it for that. This feels exactly like Final Fantasy, and a low-fi version of this wouldn’t have felt out of place if it came out between X and XII, in terms of single player entries. Compared to XIII and XV, this feels like a bit of a throwback in a very good way.
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Jun 23, 2023 15:58
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