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Ariamaki posted:No, because then there'd be basically no difference or variance between how things actually work, and the entire system would be extremely flat. This is basic game design 101 poo poo: You need to have texture and differentiation between functions that otherwise have very similar entry costs, especially if you're creating a scenario where characters have different specialties. It not only wouldn't be "easier" it wouldn't make sense AND it would make for worse gameplay. What you're describing is just Strictly Worse Limbus. If you want texture and definition, that's what the actual skills already accomplish. For the vast, vast majority of people playing the game, this system may as well not exist...and if it did actually meaningfully change things, all that would cause would be complaints. "I rolled three heads with my skill, which should have resulted in an 18. Why did I get a 16, and lose to my opponents 17? I don't have any debuffs and the opponent doesn't have any buffs, so what gives? This is bullshit." "Well you see, your problem is that you didn't check this arbitrary number that's buried in your stats screen." It's a finnicky system that doesn't really add much to the game other than loving up player-side napkin math.
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Jun 24, 2023 03:34
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GilliamYaeger posted:Wouldn't it be cleaner to just have it be a level check rather than all this nonsense about individual moves having different values? GilliamYaeger posted:A seemingly arbitrary swing of 1/2 power either way isn't really that useful a lever, especially when it's attached to a mechanic that's got little to no visible feedback. The entire system's basically invisible which means its unintuitive to strategize around, and when it does come into play the nature of it with the rework (and the fact that it needs a rework this early in the first place shows how poorly thought out it was) means that it's barely going to tip the scales either way. If you tell me that you've ever factored in offence/defence level into your strategies, then I will call you a liar. quote:If you want texture and definition, that's what the actual skills already accomplish. For the vast, vast majority of people playing the game, this system may as well not exist...and if it did actually meaningfully change things, all that would cause would be complaints. "I rolled three heads with my skill, which should have resulted in an 18. Why did I get a 16, and lose to my opponents 17? I don't have any debuffs and the opponent doesn't have any buffs, so what gives? This is bullshit." "Well you see, your problem is that you didn't check this arbitrary number that's buried in your stats screen."
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Jun 24, 2023 04:22
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RandomReader posted:Call me a liar if you want, it doesn't have much bite coming from an idiot. Even when the Red Sheets were vulnerable to slash, Kurokumo Honglu was dogshit because his offense scaling meant he'd get outclashed all the time. Maybe you would notice stuff like that if you did something other than "rcliff goes auto brrt." 1. Kurokumo Hong Lu is pretty good. From what I've seen, he does good damage and put a lot of status when used correctly 2. The Defense/Offense number served purpose? It never explained anywhere and I also have no idea what the fraction mean when I clash so it definitely could use some explanation. Just because something is simple doesn't mean will get it if it goes unexplained.
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Jun 24, 2023 04:38
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I come down more on Gilliam's side here. Dice are already a perfectly good lever to move. Part of the problem is that strong dice tend to be coupled with high attack levels, not always but often enough--look at how many of the recent three-star clash monsters have 40+ strength, while only LCCB Ishmael comes readily to mind as someone that would be a strong clasher if her individual attacks had higher strengths to go with the pretty good dice. (Kurokumo Hong Lu is good at damage, not clashing, since his skill 2 double coins are damage only.) Sure, it's an additional lever that can be moved, but historically it's been more underutilized, and the longer the game goes on like that the more awkward it is to use. Personally if they're going to tweak the strengths of everything everywhere anyway then I'd rather them just work to tweak all the dice instead, because that way it's easier to sight-read. That's an important part of gameplay feel. RandomReader posted:The cleanest gameplay is staring at a wall, but we subject ourselves to varying degrees of nonsense complexity anyway. Not to say it's wrong to simplify if gameplay is too finicky or something, but it's not a good in and of itself. Also, dude, what the gently caress crawled up your butt and died? If you lowered the level of unnecessary hostility in this post about three notches, you'd still sound like a jackass. Slow your roll.
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Jun 24, 2023 04:50
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RandomReader posted:The cleanest gameplay is staring at a wall, but we subject ourselves to varying degrees of nonsense complexity anyway. Not to say it's wrong to simplify if gameplay is too finicky or something, but it's not a good in and of itself.
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Jun 24, 2023 05:20
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GilliamYaeger posted:I'll be nice and overlook the baseless insults. But answer this: Is there really that much mechanical difference between (using the current system) a 42 power skill that rolls 5+4+4, and a 36 power skill that rolls 6+4+4? Wouldn't it be simpler if they both just had 5 base power? There is in fact a mechanical difference, and it kind of matters and kind of doesn't. A 42 power skill that rolls 5+4+4 has +2 against a 32 power skill that the 36 power skill doesn't have at all (since 32 is only 4 below 36 but 10 below 42). Furthermore this doesn't solve the actual issue that ProjectMoon implemented either system for, which is to give a reason to level identities besides base health. For an actual experience I had, Kromer was very very rough when I first went in because of this system, which if they just did what you're suggesting and level locked it would be a different experience, and I'd argue a worse one. The fact we can be mechanically (rather than purely by level entry requirements) underlevelled creates interest in the levelling system. Especially because it is a major part of how the Mirror Dungeons work, sort of. I have definitely felt the effects of the system as it exists, even if I haven't done much to look into working around it. Plus there are the buffs/debuffs that a lot of identities have. They're modifying the system because the original growth scaling would have created too high a disparity for enjoyable gameplay and balance, but they can't get rid of the system entirely because they have a bunch of pre-existing design that works with the system. Sure they could've not put the system in in the first place, but it has some interesting stuff already in terms of implications. All of Chef Roshyu's skills have different ATK levels and that actually is noticeable against enemies where these differences matter. If anything the new system is actually going to be more noticeable not less. Since it's now going to be all based on your units level and the ATK power/DEF power stuff is going to be +/- from that level on individual skills rather than attempting to scale it per level it will always more or less be the same against a same level opponent and shrinking the required difference for bonuses to apply means they'll be applying more often not less.
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Jun 24, 2023 05:36
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Okay, while this talk about the story and the game mechanic sound very interesting, I just pulled EGO Yi Sang, EGO Ishmael and Rep Rodya in a single 10-pull so I can now forget to play the game for the next 10 years and still be happy!
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Jun 24, 2023 05:46
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Lord_Magmar posted:There is in fact a mechanical difference, and it kind of matters and kind of doesn't. A 42 power skill that rolls 5+4+4 has +2 against a 32 power skill that the 36 power skill doesn't have at all (since 32 is only 4 below 36 but 10 below 42). Furthermore this doesn't solve the actual issue that ProjectMoon implemented either system for, which is to give a reason to level identities besides base health. And the new system's not that much better. It's [your level]+/-[count]. And the count only actually matters when it's between 0 and 2. If it's 3, 4, 5 or whatever, you may as well just subtract 3 and alter the base power by 1 until it hits the 0-2 range and you'd get the exact same result every time. And what you're left with is a lever with five possible values - a lever which, might I add, only has an effect when one of the two values being checked against each other is either -2 or +2. Not exactly what I'd call useful, impactful or meaningful compared to just giving the base value of the skill a flat increase or decrease and replacing this whole system with a flat level check. quote:Sure they could've not put the system in in the first place, but it has some interesting stuff already in terms of implications. All of Chef Roshyu's skills have different ATK levels and that actually is noticeable against enemies where these differences matter. If anything the new system is actually going to be more noticeable not less. Since it's now going to be all based on your units level and the ATK power/DEF power stuff is going to be +/- from that level on individual skills rather than attempting to scale it per level it will always more or less be the same against a same level opponent and shrinking the required difference for bonuses to apply means they'll be applying more often not less.  ???? Are you thinking of Nclair, not Chef Ryoshu? Because he rolls so high that increasing or decreasing the result by 1 is pointless. GilliamYaeger fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Jun 24, 2023 |
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Jun 24, 2023 05:49
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I'm thinking of Sous Chef Gregor actually. Anyway the answer is that increasing by 1 doesn't actually do the same thing as having levels does, because the point is that the ATK levels interact with the ATK/DEF levels of other skills. If everything is all the same then levelling a character literally doesn't matter (outside HP). A flat level check means that all level 35 units are equally good at Attacking and Defending against all other level 35 units, which is not the goal of the system, and just increasing or decreasing the base coin amount doesn't fix that, and also messes with the fact they use the coin skills for non-combat checks (the abnormality questions that require you to roll to beat). The new system honestly sounds fine, it is easier to understand than the old system whilst still providing some of the nuance the old system attempted to have. It isn't a perfect system, but it isn't a pointless one either, and just directly increasing/decreasing the coin values doesn't work because a) ATK and DEF levels are meant to be different and loving with DEF coins in particular is kind of rude given what they're intended to be used for and b) the actual attacks themselves aren't meant to be statically better or worse. A 5+2+2 (+/-1 or 2 or 3 based on level difference) is not the same thing as a 6+2+2 skill. Just off the 5+2+2 thing alone, I could have anywhere from 6 (-3) to 12 (+3) as the "best roll" depending on what I'm fighting, even if we're both level 35. Whereas if you do a pure level check with a 6+2+2 skill then the only option is 10 if we're the same level as the max roll, which they don't want. Using pure level checking reduces the number of possibilities in the system that the player is meant to be able to see and think about, which is why you actually see the Attack level of skills when clashing. Edit: Basically the idea that you can cut out this system and just replace it with more or less power on the base skill ignores the fact that it being something that actually can be different depending on what you clash with is the point. A skill that always is a 6+2+2 against a skill that is always a 4+1+1 is not the same thing as a skill that is 5+2+2 (+1) or 5+2+2 (-1) against a skill that is 4+1+1 (-1) or 4+1+1 (+1) but depending on which sinner and which enemy is using which skill and their varying ATK levels this difference is possible). Just because it doesn't seem/feel meaningful doesn't mean it isn't a real thing nor that it should be simplified out of the game to a less nuanced/complex system. It also means you can have abilities that are better at damage than clashing, by giving them low ATK level but high base coin damage. Or the opposite, high atk power but low base coin damage, because the ATK lvl is mostly for clashing and doesn't modify the damage skills do, thus having some skills you do not want to clash with at all. I previously said that ATK level modifies damage, this is wrong and I'm dumb for suggesting it. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Jun 24, 2023 |
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Jun 24, 2023 06:27
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Lord_Magmar posted:I'm thinking of Sous Chef Gregor actually. Anyway the answer is that increasing by 1 doesn't actually do the same thing as having levels does, because the point is that the ATK levels interact with the ATK/DEF levels of other skills. If everything is all the same then levelling a character literally doesn't matter (outside HP). -2 v -2 = 0 -2 v -1 = 0 -2 v 0 = 0 -2 v 1 = -1 -2 v 2 = -1 -1 v -2 = 0 -1 v -1 = 0 -1 v 0 = 0 -1 v 1 = 0 -1 v 2 = -1 0 v -2 = 0 0 v -1 = 0 0 v 0 = 0 0 v 1 = 0 0 v 2 = 0 1 v -2 = +1 1 v -1 = 0 1 v 0 = 0 1 v 1 = 0 1 v 2 = 0 2 v -2 = +1 2 v -1 +1 2 v 0 = 0 2 v 1 = 0 2 v 2 = 0 In 25 scenarios, the attack/defence value only changes the outcome compared to just directly altering the base value in only 6 cases. And even then, the only effect is a change of 1 to the base value of the skill, which is a big fat nothing. The only time it'll actually change the result of a clash is when the value of the rolls have a difference of 1. The vast majority of the time this system may as well not exist. And you're bringing up dungeon event rolls? Come on, dude, you can do better than that. Edit: oh, you did, lol. Gimme a minute to read through the new post GilliamYaeger fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Jun 24, 2023 |
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Jun 24, 2023 06:42
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It matters, it means the coin value of a skill can be different from the actual clash power, that it comes across as mostly pointless doesn't mean it is without point. And you're assuming we should subtract 3, when the new system could have say -9 vs +9 which will matter, even if you could supposedly get the same result (you can't) from just reducing/increasing the base coin by 3 in either case. Your example looks unimportant becuase you've already decided to modify the base coin with your own theoretical version of the system. Your assumption is wrong, because you've actually ignored the fact that subtracting 3 from the result of -4 vs +11 is not the same amount of subtraction. Oh sorry yeah, I'm thinking my way through the system myself because it is actually interesting, it just isn't clear (and the new system is clearer than the old, which is good). Edit: To use actual already existing in game examples TingTang Hong Lu at level 20 has an ATK Level of 30 and a DEF Level of 25. In a pure Level based system, his coins would have to have 2 more base power on ATK and 1 more on DEF to reach parity. Except then if he was up against an actual level 30 unit on a pure level check based system he'd be much worse off than he is now, given said unit had an ATK level of 30 on the old system (so no changes to skill power once shifted to the new one). He would no longer be able to punch above his weight class and pick off say, level 30 units with ATK level of 25 as easily. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Jun 24, 2023 |
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Jun 24, 2023 06:46
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GilliamYaeger posted:I'll be nice and overlook the baseless insults. But answer this: Is there really that much mechanical difference between (using the current system) a 42 power skill that rolls 5+4+4, and a 36 power skill that rolls 6+4+4? Wouldn't it be simpler if they both just had 5 base power? RandomReader posted:The cleanest gameplay is staring at a wall, but we subject ourselves to varying degrees of nonsense complexity anyway. Not to say it's wrong to simplify if gameplay is too finicky or something, but it's not a good in and of itself. Edit: And to add some assholery, there was a lot of self editing to stop insulting you here. RandomReader fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Jun 24, 2023 |
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Jun 24, 2023 06:52
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Lord_Magmar posted:It matters, it means the coin value of a skill can be different from the actual clash power, that it comes across as mostly pointless doesn't mean it is without point. And you're assuming we should subtract 3, when the new system could have say -9 vs +9 which will matter, even if you could supposedly get the same result (you can't) from just reducing/increasing the base coin by 3 in either case. Your example looks unimportant becuase you've already decided to modify the base coin with your own theoretical version of the system. We have our 6+2+2 skill that rolls 10. Let's give this a value of...oh, -5. And we have another skill that's 5+2+2 that'll roll 9. This'll be at -2. These two skills are exactly the same.
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Jun 24, 2023 06:56
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GilliamYaeger posted:Let's reword this, then. Well no, because the 6+2+2 skill could come up against a 5+2+2 skill with a value of -5. Or under your change a 4+2+2 skill with a value of -2. All of which have in game modifiers too, yes maybe they shouldn't have implemented the system in the first place, but now that they have carving it out wholesale isn't useful because they have stuff that increases and decreases the ATK/DEF level of units skills, N Corp Faust improves the Blunt/Pierce Power of allies if she kills with Execution. Which increases the ATK Level AND the damage done, but there's stuff that only increases ATK level, and there's stuff that only increases damage done. It is valuable to be able to have skills that have different strengths when clashing vs getting free hits in and removing the lvl system turns everything into does it clash good or not (because skills that currently clash badly but still have high damage will have their values lowered by your change). Or also the situation in which the 6+2+2 skill that has a value of -5 comes up against the 5+2+2 skill with a value of +2. or a 5+2+2 skill with a value of +5. The fact that there are different skills with different ATK/DEF levels means that the system can have a lot more situations come up than removing the ATK/DEF levels entirely does, even if they don't feel particularly nuanced or meaningfully different it is an angle they can use to design and empower/weaken units.
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Jun 24, 2023 07:02
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Lord_Magmar posted:Well no, because the 6+2+2 skill could come up against a 5+2+2 skill with a value of -5. Or under your change a 4+2+2 skill with a value of -2. All of which have in game modifiers too, yes maybe they shouldn't have implemented the system in the first place, but now that they have carving it out wholesale isn't useful because they have stuff that increases and decreases the ATK/DEF level of units skills, N Corp Faust improves the Blunt/Pierce Power of allies if she kills with Execution. Which increases the ATK Level AND the damage done, but there's stuff that only increases ATK level, and there's stuff that only increases damage done.
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Jun 24, 2023 07:10
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Changing it to 3-per-+1 also gives a notable buff to Candy Crush powerups, making them marginally more useful. How did atk level vs def level work for the purposes of determining damage, again? I feel like that came up in SnakeFight in RR... I vaguely remember it being nigh impossible to really hurt due to its 60-something defense.
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Jun 24, 2023 07:14
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GilliamYaeger posted:This is a mobile game. You don't need all these systems. This whole thing will only matter in obscure edge cases, and the vast majority of the time it may as well not be there - which means that most people will completely forget it exists until it suddenly matters and fucks up the expected outcome of a situation. The value it adds is miniscule in comparison to the unneccesary mechanical clutter it adds. Ruina got along just fine without this, did it not? Hell, it had similar mechanically confusing systems in the form of floor and keypage levels that it eventually stripped out and the game was healthier for it. Do you think anyone misses that poo poo? I never played the version of Library of Ruina with Floor and Keypage levels, but those are both related to grinding pointlessly in a card game. Now admittedly levels in Limbus are also tied to pointless grinding, but I don't think they're going to cut out the entire level system entirely as it is. So I'm pretty happy for a system where sometimes a level 30 unit has a mechanical advantage in a clash against a level 35 unit outside raw coin numbers. Because part of the problem of it all being raw coin numbers is the potential for power creep. Also plenty of mobile games have batshit systems, and this stuff in particular is by design more or less only meant to truly matter in the hardest content of the game, Mirror Dungeon (hard mode) and Refraction Railway. Other than the stuff around encouraging you to level to keep up with the main campaign, and even that again there's some units that cheat the system. R Heathcliff has the highest ATK levels in the game and that's why he's more or less aces, but just giving him better clash power wouldn't be quite the same effect (since he already has stupid good clash power anyway). TeeQueue posted:Changing it to 3-per-+1 also gives a notable buff to Candy Crush powerups, making them marginally more useful. In ATK level vs DEF level it works on the dodge clash, and reduces the damage dealt against counters/guards as appropriate (for each 5 levels of difference you did 1 less damage into a guard/counter skill). The RR Snake Fight has a lot of stuff going on, the 60-something defense that nerfed the damage your attacks dealt, and the fact it could gain protection when using said defense too. Which is a further % reduction applied after the flat reduction. It is probably one of the better examples of why separating the level of skills from the level of unit lets there be specific "strong" skills for clashing (or in snake fight case defending with). DEF level basically ONLY benefits your defensive skill if you use it, it doesn't do anything otherwise afaik. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Jun 24, 2023 |
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Jun 24, 2023 07:16
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TeeQueue posted:Changing it to 3-per-+1 also gives a notable buff to Candy Crush powerups, making them marginally more useful. Lord_Magmar posted:I never played the version of Library of Ruina with Floor and Keypage levels, but those are both related to grinding pointlessly in a card game. Now admittedly levels in Limbus are also tied to pointless grinding, but I don't think they're going to cut out the entire level system entirely as it is. So I'm pretty happy for a system where sometimes a level 30 unit has a mechanical advantage in a clash against a level 35 unit outside raw coin numbers. Because part of the problem of it all being raw coin numbers is the potential for power creep. As I keep saying, there is no difference between a 3 point difference in offence power and a 1 point difference in base power. They're the same thing. And hey, if something only matters at the highest level of play and serves to gatekeep anyone who doesn't understand it because it only matters at that level of play, maybe it's a bad thing that gatekeeps people who'd otherwise enjoy that content? GilliamYaeger fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Jun 24, 2023 |
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Jun 24, 2023 07:21
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I guess at the end of the day, they already have a bunch of stuff designed to interact with the system, regardless of how meaningful the system is. So I think it's fine for them to decide that the old system was going to end up inflating too far outwards. Which was the concern they describe, under the old system the good clashers (R Heathcliff) with high scaling would end up way way way ahead of the bad clashers with low scaling. So they still want good/bad clashers, but they don't want a situation where at level 70 R Heathcliff has 90 ATK Level and a Yi Sang has like, 50. Instead they'll just have +/- 1/2/3/4/5 which is also much easier to visually understand than the old numbers anyway. If the new system ends up not actually mattering then it doesn't matter that it exists, if it does it is more easily understood and visible than the old system anyway. From ProjMoon's perspective, they think without this system they'd end up with inflated coin values to make later story threats still threatening, instead of letting the ATK/DEF level system do that. Kromer is actually a good example of this in action, since Kromer actually does have high enough ATK level that under the existing system some "level appropriate" units aren't good at clashing with her. Which just messing with the coin values alone might ruin, since part of this is also attempting not to break the difficulty of existing content that is designed based on the original, but soon to be changed, system. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Jun 24, 2023 |
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Jun 24, 2023 07:24
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GilliamYaeger posted:I...want to say it's 3% damage for every 5 points of difference? That's just what I remember reading from a reddit post that mathed it out though, because of course none of this is actually explained anywhere in-game. Ultimately, this would be a bigger deal with the later-level inflation than anything if those numbers are ultimately correct (or even if they're off somewhat). We'd hit a point where N Meur would have like 80 defense and R Heath would have like 40 defense, and trying to balance encounters with enemies with 80 atk to damage N Meur would be great until it makes all the offensive characters Stagger in like 2 hits due to bonus damage from the defense stat being so low. We already started seeing a bit of that with paperguys this chapter. Focusing entirely on Offensive levels alone for this discussion doesn't really get a good view of the whole shebang imo.
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Jun 24, 2023 07:27
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TeeQueue posted:Ultimately, this would be a bigger deal with the later-level inflation than anything if those numbers are ultimately correct (or even if they're off somewhat). This is a really good point actually, and one I wasn't considering either. I like there being systems that can be modified with besides base coin and coin heads results for making combat have a little more nuance about how you clash, also for what it's worth, the game actually does show you the results of the level difference when you clash a coin, that's what the "expected range" shows. The system isn't obfuscated at all, outside of the fact it doesn't necessarily explain what is happening, it does give you the results of what is happening quite visibly. It is entirely possible they never should have implemented the ATK/DEF level system at all, but now that they have ripping it out wholesale isn't a great solution when it is a system that does kind of work (and is being refined into a better system). Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Jun 24, 2023 |
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Jun 24, 2023 07:29
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TeeQueue posted:Ultimately, this would be a bigger deal with the later-level inflation than anything if those numbers are ultimately correct (or even if they're off somewhat). Regardless, I think we can all agree that this new system is way better than the old one. Now you can actually use the numbers the game shows to you to determine how good a skill actually is, rather than having to pull out a calculator to compare the effectiveness of RHeath's Quick Suppression and LCCBIsh's Suppress against a value you don't even know - I'm going to guess that nobody in this thread will be able to recall the offence and defence levels of the enemies in Canto 4 off the top of their head. Now you can just measure them against a hypothetical +0 skill (or +0 defence) and get the expected results for a hypothetical clash. Personally after this discussion, I think that the atk/def level system is fine, they should just restrict attack rolls to the 0-2 range in either direction. GilliamYaeger fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Jun 24, 2023 |
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Jun 24, 2023 07:37
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GilliamYaeger posted:Regardless, I think we can all agree that this new system is way better than the old one. Now you can actually use the numbers the game shows to you to determine how good a skill actually is, rather than having to pull out a calculator to compare the effectiveness of RHeath's Quick Suppression and LCCBIsh's Suppress against a value you don't even know - I'm going to guess that nobody in this thread will be able to recall the offence and defence levels of the enemies in Canto 4 off the top of their head. Now you can just measure them against a hypothetical +0 skill (or +0 defence) and get the expected results for a hypothetical clash. Actually, all the offense and defense levels are right there whenever you clash. While we do all agree that the new system is better, and allows for offense/defense level down to be much more useful, claiming the old system was calculator-level complicated just isn't true when the values are plainly presented like this.  (My apologies if I'm doing some part of this wrong, I'm still very new here).
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Jun 24, 2023 09:17
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I think they're referring to not knowing what it is during teambuilding/before going into the fight. It's there after but at that point you've already set up ya boiz and sent them off to get murdered so you can rewind time and make them do it again.
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Jun 24, 2023 09:23
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Numbus26 posted:Actually, all the offense and defense levels are right there whenever you clash. While we do all agree that the new system is better, and allows for offense/defense level down to be much more useful, claiming the old system was calculator-level complicated just isn't true when the values are plainly presented like this.  Something like this, I suppose. Also yeah it's also about the teambuilding element of things. Makes it hard to directly compare how strong two skills are without math. GilliamYaeger fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Jun 24, 2023 |
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Jun 24, 2023 09:24
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GilliamYaeger posted:They are right there, but they're just the raw numbers, not the actual useful information. If, underneath the values, they had how much the attack and defence values actually affect the clash and damage rolls? That'd be a different story. I don't think it reduces skill power, just increases it, hence showing 6/18 (4/16 + 2) for the player and 4/10 for the enemy. Which is another reason for the levels vs the increasing base coin thing I guess.
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Jun 24, 2023 09:54
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L.U.I.G.I posted:1. Kurokumo Hong Lu is pretty good. From what I've seen, he does good damage and put a lot of status when used correctly Specifically Cloud Cutter doubles it's attacks if the enemy has less than 4 Bleed at the start of the move, so basically always unless it's a Bleed team. So it's a 2-coin skill used twice which means it hits really hard and it's his skill 2 which means he gets a lot of them. His skill 3 also isn't bad. Skill 1 blows and slash-resistant enemies just completely neuter him but whatever that's the price you pay for an 00 being that good. Calling him "dogshit" is completely absurd and kinda betrays a lack of knowledge about...pretty much everything gameplay-wise e: on the Number Debate: i've never actually known how atk/def numbers affected anything at all, it's always been pretty vague nonsense and I can only really tell how good a unit is offensively by actually using them. Anything simplifying that is a good idea Yinlock fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jun 24, 2023 |
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Jun 24, 2023 16:20
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Yinlock posted:Specifically Cloud Cutter doubles it's attacks if the enemy has less than 4 Bleed at the start of the move, so basically always unless it's a Bleed team. So it's a 2-coin skill used twice which means it hits really hard and it's his skill 2 which means he gets a lot of them. His skill 3 also isn't bad. Cloud Cutter doubles its attacks if the enemy has less than 4 bleed count, so he's good with every bleed team that isn't N Corp.
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Jun 24, 2023 17:37
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Yinlock posted:Specifically Cloud Cutter doubles it's attacks if the enemy has less than 4 Bleed at the start of the move, so basically always unless it's a Bleed team. So it's a 2-coin skill used twice which means it hits really hard and it's his skill 2 which means he gets a lot of them. His skill 3 also isn't bad. Ehhhhhh. I'd agree that Kurokumo Hong Lu is bad against strong enemies. The main problem is that his S1 has bad values by non-S1 standards and a mediocre power, so even if you get the Heads it'll have issues with the weakest attacks of chapter 4 enemies. Furthering the problem is that the fact that Hong Lu has one of the most expensive Zayin EGO in the game, and his lone TETH right now is costed like a HE instead, so he can't even rely on EGO to win clashes when he only has his S1 available. He's great against enemies that you can already stomp or when you you can restart until you don't get stuck having to use his first skill, but otherwise that S1 seriously holds him down.
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Jun 24, 2023 17:38
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For what it's worth, getting a good turn count against the K Corp in Refraction Railway 1 had KK Hong Lu as a pretty important option.
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Jun 24, 2023 17:47
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Lord_Magmar posted:For what it's worth, getting a good turn count against the K Corp in Refraction Railway 1 had KK Hong Lu as a pretty important option. Einander posted:or when you you can restart until you don't get stuck having to use his first skill
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Jun 24, 2023 17:54
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Einander posted:Ehhhhhh. I'd agree that Kurokumo Hong Lu is bad against strong enemies. The main problem is that his S1 has bad values by non-S1 standards and a mediocre power, so even if you get the Heads it'll have issues with the weakest attacks of chapter 4 enemies. Furthering the problem is that the fact that Hong Lu has one of the most expensive Zayin EGO in the game, and his lone TETH right now is costed like a HE instead, so he can't even rely on EGO to win clashes when he only has his S1 available. He's great against enemies that you can already stomp or when you you can restart until you don't get stuck having to use his first skill, but otherwise that S1 seriously holds him down. i did say the s1 was rear end, it's the price for his everything else being so good as an 00 he's very good 50% of the time
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Jun 24, 2023 20:04
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Yinlock posted:i did say the s1 was rear end, it's the price for his everything else being so good as an 00 Way more than 50% (although I know you are just talking about coin distribution): He's got an average / solid defensive coin to shuffle away those Cleaves, or he can use them one-sidedly in any fight hard enough for it to matter. Between Sanity advantage and being, yaknow, on a team with other Sinners? He's one of the best as long as he's not hard-countered, reliably dishing out very VERY big hits to anything that isn't triple-resistant to Slash and Pride and Sloth. And even after all of that his first coin is merely average, not even back-breakingly bad. There is a reason he sits comfortably in the upper echelons as a top-class Identity... although personally I tend to run a benched Support Ting-Tang and not even put Hong Lu in my teams at all: Gambit is really, REALLY good.
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Jun 25, 2023 02:36
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If you want some solid Identity analysis, there's this Youtuber I like called Kaskozhuk who's done three ID group overviews (Shi, Kurokumo and Lineage). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgEzfDds3RI&t=571s This is his Shi overview, you can find the other two on his channel proper.
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Jun 25, 2023 03:03
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Ariamaki posted:Way more than 50% (although I know you are just talking about coin distribution): He's got an average / solid defensive coin to shuffle away those Cleaves, or he can use them one-sidedly in any fight hard enough for it to matter. Between Sanity advantage and being, yaknow, on a team with other Sinners? He's one of the best as long as he's not hard-countered, reliably dishing out very VERY big hits to anything that isn't triple-resistant to Slash and Pride and Sloth. And even after all of that his first coin is merely average, not even back-breakingly bad. There is a reason he sits comfortably in the upper echelons as a top-class Identity... although personally I tend to run a benched Support Ting-Tang and not even put Hong Lu in my teams at all: Gambit is really, REALLY good. All good points. I feel like some practical joker switched his and W Meursault's rarities e: though tbf W Meur could actually be okay if he, yknow, had any reliable way to build charge. Gregor AEDD has some interesting applications on that front but we don't have anything really sturdy enough to test it. Even with that I don't think he's 000 level though Yinlock fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Jun 25, 2023 |
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Jun 25, 2023 08:27
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Mili - Fly, My Wings [Limbus Company]
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Jun 25, 2023 12:22
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Welp I made to day 40 and I am trying to figure out if I want to do a full reset to get the 100% complete list. I so far have done all of the meltdowns up until the bottom row, and will try and complete all the missions for each The big question for me is that I don't think I will see all the anomalies (at 60% now) if I don't do any resets. I could keep doing 5 day resets to see a handful more, but would it be much quicker for me to just reset for day 1 now and power through? The days would definitely be shorter which would be pretty useful. I also have been pretty lax on training, I have about 15 fully loaded agents, but that is not that much for the size of the place now.
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Jun 25, 2023 20:14
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Absolutely love the art going on here, it fits this (my new favorite Mili song by a mile) so perfectly.
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Jun 25, 2023 22:06
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Ingenium posted:Welp I made to day 40 and I am trying to figure out if I want to do a full reset to get the 100% complete list. I so far have done all of the meltdowns up until the bottom row, and will try and complete all the missions for each The big question for me is that I don't think I will see all the anomalies (at 60% now) if I don't do any resets. I could keep doing 5 day resets to see a handful more, but would it be much quicker for me to just reset for day 1 now and power through? The days would definitely be shorter which would be pretty useful. I also have been pretty lax on training, I have about 15 fully loaded agents, but that is not that much for the size of the place now. As the game itself says if you don't feel like you're ready there's no shame in restarting I'd say it also depends on how cursed your facility is, if you're on your first run then it's probably a nightmare on some level
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Jun 25, 2023 22:50
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At my current rate I'll be up to about 900 Nominable crates by the time the double Ryoshu EGO banner hits later this week, with a few hundred of her shards saved. So that's one risky set of extractions I straight up don't even need to interface with. 
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Jun 26, 2023 04:01
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