(Thread IKs:
weg, Toxic Mental)
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RoyKeen posted:I can't say what the average Russian thinks. I don't know how Wagner is viewed. The" beauty" of Wagner isn't just in what they can do as a mercenary force disconnected from the Russian military but also that they can be treated as outsiders. This can be spun as some action by a rogue entity. It can be viewed and presented as the motivation of Prigozhin. It doesn't have to be seen as Russians against Russians. The narrative is Wagner lost it's poo poo and threw a tantrum. Not, "Russians are tired of Putin and attempted a coup" I don't even think Wagner attempted a coup. Wagner was, until literally yesterday, seen as an official part of the Russian military to the point that the government was recruiting for Wagner. The government made token noise that Wagner wasn't Russian military, but that was pretty much only for outside propaganda. Russia has spent considerable time telling Russians that Wagner is a group of Russian heroes. And what the gently caress are you talking about, Putin doesn't take a hit? He literally fled from Wagner's might like a coward. And Wagner marched on Moscow with only token resistance. That he was able to give Prigozhin enough to please him is one of those things that might save his rear end now, but doom him later. Putin ate poo poo hard and if he's lucky, it's that he still has any power/life at all.
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Jun 25, 2023 00:45
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Nelson Mandingo posted:I'm sorry, is this a parody post? I'm not trying to be insulting but I'm legitimately getting Poe's law here. I guess we just perceive this differently. I'm not even sure I'd call this a coup attempt. I'm not convinced Prigozhin wanted Putin out. One could argue that a dictator does pardon a rival if that rival seems to not pose a threat. Again, I didn't see any significant coup at Moscow's gates. There was no huge conflict. There were some skirmishes on the way up but I don't recall any real head to head at the 'gates' of the capital. I do agree that the fact the convoy wasn't obliterated may speak to the inabilities of Russia to defend itself inside it's borders. Or it may reveal that the convoy wasn't perceived as that much of a threat. Wiping it out may have been bad optics. Negotiations may have been ongoing and there was a hold on engagements. Any and all of this are possible. I'm happy to be wrong. I'm happy to imagine the end of Putin. I'm just not sure I see any real difference late on this Saturday. Maybe we'll see some real media come out and be critical of the Putin regime. I just feel like by Monday it will be business as usual. I mean, who will have the means of a Wagner? Maybe this will stir something in the Russian military or maybe this will solidify the ranks. I don't see this as devastating.
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Jun 25, 2023 00:46
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Kchama posted:And what the gently caress are you talking about, Putin doesn't take a hit? He literally fled from Wagner's might like a coward. And Wagner marched on Moscow with only token resistance. That he was able to give Prigozhin enough to please him is one of those things that might save his rear end now, but doom him later. Putin stans will always find a way to make it seem positive. Currently they are talking about how Putin "solved the problem so quickly" or something like that. But it definitely will be a important event which spurs the realization by the Russian populace that another person could step up and finish the job https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1672748369934991360?s=20
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Jun 25, 2023 00:48
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I guess you can say its a W for Putin in the sense that he could've very easily been in a coffin instead of in a jet or still in office when faced with thousands of angry ex-con mercenaries marching towards the capital after shooting down multiple army helicopters and sieging a critical logistics hub for the 3 day special military operation, and despite all that Putin is still drawing oxygen. I guess?  And for the record, Putin being exposed as a sniveling coward pinwheeling his uncontrollably shaky baby deer legs at the first sign of trouble coming home when he loves being the big strong smart man you never gently caress with after Prig hosed with him and got away with it via still drawing oxygen as well as drawing a ticket to Belarus and/or not worrying about Wagner getting assimilated into the Russian armed forces, is uh...not good for Putin or the ultramacho society he wants to cultivate. EorayMel fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Jun 25, 2023 |
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Jun 25, 2023 00:48
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RoyKeen posted:I guess we just perceive this differently. I'm not even sure I'd call this a coup attempt. I'm not convinced Prigozhin wanted Putin out. One could argue that a dictator does pardon a rival if that rival seems to not pose a threat. "The convoy wasn't perceived as that much of a threat" as everyone rushes to throw defenses in front of the convoy, but who instead flee or join the convoy instead of actually stopping them isn't very likely, my friend. If it wasn't perceived as much of a threat, then Putin wouldn't had fled Moscow to escape it.
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Jun 25, 2023 00:48
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Kchama posted:Wagner was, until literally yesterday, seen as an official part of the Russian military to the point that the government was recruiting for Wagner. The government made token noise that Wagner wasn't Russian military, but that was pretty much only for outside propaganda. Russia has spent considerable time telling Russians that Wagner is a group of Russian heroes. I'm kidding
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Jun 25, 2023 00:49
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Durendal posted:I wonder if Russia fell back to its nuke card and threatened Wagner with tac nukes if they came closer. Wouldn't have needed to be a nuke, they could have just threatened heavy bombing. The mobile AAA that Wagner's convoy had was good for shooting down helicopters. It couldn't do anything to high-altitude bombers. Priggy alluded to this at the start of the rebellion when he said something along the lines of "we know what happens when a regime starts bombing their own cities". Which was true up to a point, and that point is that Putin would rather bomb his own cities than get deposed.
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Jun 25, 2023 00:51
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Can you not post fanfics please I'll be fair: It's hard to call much fanfic anymore when Russia literally marched on Russia and Russia had to throw out a sweetheart deal to escape defeat by Russia.
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Jun 25, 2023 00:51
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quote:I'm not convinced Prigozhin wanted Putin out. Oh I see. This is what you don't understand. This does not matter. Even if Prigozhin was 100% truthful that this was just about removing the incompetent military leaders. A military that rebels against it's leadership is a threat that must be neutralized to assure not only the populace but political allies and rivals your powerbase is secure. And he made concessions with them. He capitulated. That isn't an act of strength or skillful diplomacy.
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Jun 25, 2023 00:51
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Putin should have allowed Prigozhin to complete the coup and handed the country over to him. Prigozhin, could then have ended the war, withdrawn all troops, paid reparations, etc and Putin could gently caress off to his mansion forever with without having personally lost the war.
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Jun 25, 2023 00:51
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Sophy Wackles posted:Putin should have allowed Prigozhin to complete the coup and handed the country over to him. Prigozhin, could then have ended the war, withdrawn all troops, paid reparations, etc and Putin could gently caress off to his mansion forever with without having personally lost the war. some aspect of prigozhin himself thinking about this and realizing that he himself didnt want to deal with that crap is almost certainly a factor in why he's not shogun right now
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Jun 25, 2023 00:56
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Grape posted:Where has their specifically Nazi aspect been at all present in any of this. They haven't taken literal power so there's no avenue to prosecute those, and so it's just an action, void of the ideology. You know what? You're right. Looking at just his actions and ignoring his Telegram posts or recordings, there's no obvious ideological element to adopt from his actions beyond things Russian state media already encourages daily. I was too busy overfixating on and worrying about the authoritarian blood and soil elements behind Prigozhin's rhetoric surrounding his recent actions to really process that not everyone in Russia is going to be looking for a new strongman or ideology to make sense of what's happening in the way I was imagining in this discussion. I'll take the L.
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Jun 25, 2023 00:56
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Pontificating rear end posted:Putin stans will always find a way to make it seem positive. Currently they are talking about how Putin "solved the problem so quickly" or something like that. But it definitely will be a important event which spurs the realization by the Russian populace that another person could step up and finish the job Make no mistake, I'm not a fan of Putin. And since the start or at least the failures of the "special operation" he has been vulnerable. This was dealt with quickly. Not because Putin was some mastermind but because both sides realized this escalated quickly. Could Prigozhin and Wagner march on Moscow? Yes. This wasn't the time. Prig had to utilize the momentum but Wagner wasn't in a place to really do anything significant. And the fact that it happened quickly was an asset to both sides. Putin could feel the pressure and make some concessions. Prig knew he wasn't at full strength and I'm not convinced he even wanted to take Moscow so he too ka good deal. It is an important event. And the Russian populace may feel that another person could step up and finish the job. That would be great. But where is the next Wagner? Maybe elements of the Russian military could step up but I suspect it might be harder in that environment. I'm all for it.
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Jun 25, 2023 00:58
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you do not pardon the insurrectionists, who killed Russian military personnel, if you have any kind of strength or power left. The Wagner leadership behind this push should be labeled enemies of the state and executed. Maybe if there was no loss of life or no destruction of aircraft...but even then, their leaders and head of the insurrection should be jailed at minimum Just loving crazy they get to walk...we will have to wait for more information this week and to see if whatever truce was made holds. And see if real changes to leadership at the MoD actually happens. But seriously this is loving nuts
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Jun 25, 2023 00:59
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Wonder if Putin is ever regretting thinking Prigozhin was one of the good ones and didn't deserve spicy polonium tea
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Jun 25, 2023 01:00
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never forget when the invaders were at the gates putin pissed his pants and ran away.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:00
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What the gently caress happened while I slept and been to a pride event. Coup over??
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Jun 25, 2023 01:00
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Do you seriously not understand that what literally just happened within the last 24 hours has ramifications that haven't even been felt yet? Is that really that difficult of a concept to grasp? Is the end of the terror against the Ukraine really soon one of them? Because Prigoschin told everyone he is a patriot and the Operation and the way back to the front with his mercenaries was still his agenda after dealing with the MOD just before he turned 180° What ramifications that stop the killing do you see?
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Jun 25, 2023 01:01
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RoyKeen posted:And the fact that it happened quickly was an asset to both sides. Putin could feel the pressure and make some concessions. That the whole scenario could have been resolved worse and more slowly does not shift the overall event into the W column.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:01
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look this is all great analysis and all but can anyone phrase it as if it were a marvel movie?
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Jun 25, 2023 01:01
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bob dobbs is dead posted:some aspect of prigozhin himself thinking about this and realizing that he himself didnt want to deal with that crap is almost certainly a factor in why he's not shogun right now Hello! Quiet lurker in this thread, up to now - just wanted to throw out my suspicion here: Even if the reports that thousands of Wagner troops were on the way to Moscow are true, and even if they did get some locals joining up along the way, Moscow is a city of around 13 million people. At the capital they were likely to encounter more than token resistance(or so I think) and even if they overcame it, there's no way you could possibly secure a city of 13 million with ~25K of manpower. I bet Prigozhin knew he was boned if he actually took this all the way, which is why he stopped and listened when Lukashenko reached out to him. Anyway, that's my theory at the moment. Thank you all for being so informative over the last 48 hours, I appreciate it a lot.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:03
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InsertPotPun posted:look this is all great analysis and all but can anyone phrase it as if it were a marvel movie? 
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Jun 25, 2023 01:04
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Fumble posted:never forget when the invaders were at the gates putin pissed his pants and ran away. I know. It's beautiful. This is Zelensky's final and ultimate victory over Putin. He stayed because he believed in his people. Pooty Tang ran to his dacha at the first hint of trouble. It tells you everything you need to know about him.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:04
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InsertPotPun posted:look this is all great analysis and all but can anyone phrase it as if it were a marvel movie? Thanos got all 5 stones but was too limp to snap.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:04
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Putin fleeing Moscow is pretty funny. So is tearing up your own roads and infrastructure when you're totally not scared. Meanwhile his own propaganda has been telling everyone these guys are heroes, so of course everyone enables them. A chef holding a knife to the tsar's throat! I really hope Ukraine got something out of it.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:05
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Should've gone for the blyat
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Jun 25, 2023 01:05
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Huh, I guess the tankies were right and there really was an army of neo-Nazis in Ukraine, ready to invade Russia.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:07
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You guys remember that scene in Halo 2 I think where the brutes take the armor from the sword bros and are way too big for it but Rock it anyway? Yeah that's a possibility if Wagner is given the MOD. And you'll remember where the story went from there.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:08
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InsertPotPun posted:look this is all great analysis and all but can anyone phrase it as if it were a marvel movie? Red Skull attacked Red Guardian, who then gave him amnesty and sent him away. Then fell down and pissed himself.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:08
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Mr.PayDay posted:Is the end of the terror against the Ukraine really soon one of them? Why do you keep asking a question that has literally nothing to do with what just happened
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Jun 25, 2023 01:08
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InsertPotPun posted:look this is all great analysis and all but can anyone phrase it as if it were a marvel movie? Imagine if Hawkeye got pissed off that he was the worst Avenger and decided to murder Captain America and sieze control, but then at the last moment chickened out and decided to bail. Then Captain America arranged a snow plough 'accident' but i don't think we're that far along yet.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:08
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War Wizard posted:Putin fleeing Moscow is pretty funny. So is tearing up your own roads and infrastructure when you're totally not scared. Didn't he also take a plane across the country as soon as the Belgorod raids started, or am I misremembering?
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Jun 25, 2023 01:08
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thanks everyone, i didn't know how to feel about this until now :*(
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Jun 25, 2023 01:09
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Actual belly laugh irl
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Jun 25, 2023 01:09
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McGavin posted:Huh, I guess the tankies were right and there really was an army of neo-Nazis in Ukraine, ready to invade Russia. 
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Jun 25, 2023 01:10
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tiaz posted:That the whole scenario could have been resolved worse and more slowly does not shift the overall event into the W column. Maybe not a "W" but best of everyone involved at the moment. poo poo escalated quickly. I'm not saying the problem was fixed or that everything is awesome in the end for those fuckheads. But Putin didn't risk a coup and Prigozhin got to walk away when he was on a weak footing was beneficial to both of them. Maybe not to the rest of the world but for those two specific shitheads it worked out as best as could be.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:11
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itt I am the convict who said no to Wagner and now gets to watch his former cell mate being applauded and treated like a hero in Rostov
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Jun 25, 2023 01:13
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Fumble posted:Thanos got all 5 stones but was too limp to snap. Should have gone for the head.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:15
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Why do you keep asking a question that has literally nothing to do with what just happened Because this is the Ukraine War thread and what happened was that the - according the coverage - most powerful, experienced and brutal paramilitary force left the Warfront and declared war against the Russian MoD leaders and were on their way to Moskow until they weren’t. So it’s obviously crucial to elaborate what does this mean for this War if Putin is weakened now. The murdering of civilians did not stop a minute.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:17
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Scam Likely posted:itt I am the convict who said no to Wagner and now gets to watch his former cell mate being applauded and treated like a hero in Rostov They probably left the convicts behind.. Which is probably not going to look great when they get back.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:18
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