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cruft posted:Now you have to tell me what WM you use. It would be a hoot (to me) if it were the one I worked on. However, mine's not even using the tiling option except for when I've got multiple presentations going on at various BSD conferences that I'm attending virtually - for everything else, it's one program per workspace, in full-screen mode. For the longest time I used xfree86/xorg+ratpoison-wm, switched to xorg+i3, and then to wayland+sway when I got my T480s. I don't think any of the programs I use are making use of Xwayland, but I keep it installed just in case.
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Jun 26, 2023 20:19
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ExcessBLarg! posted:I think about Enlightenment about once a decade. Did E17 ever come out? The alpha branch moved on to E18 before E17 reached 1.0. I think it was at E21 when I stopped using it, still a buggy mess.
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Jun 26, 2023 20:34
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KDE is fine these days, I guess? KWin gets some bonus points for being one of the first Wayland compositors that wasn't just based on the Weston reference implementation. I mean, I did use KDE for years particularly in the 3.x era, but I found that it was generally too busy for what I really wanted.cruft posted:e: anyway, isn't there a tiling wayland compositor everybody's all horned up about? sway or something?
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Jun 26, 2023 20:55
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unruly posted:I mean, isn't Arch's pacman just a wrapper around extracting .xz files? I know that the ABS is literally just shell scripts for installing packages that no one wants to officially maintain. It decompresses archives, yes, but it also resolves dependencies, downloads packages, and runs install scripts.
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Jun 26, 2023 21:01
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Hadlock posted:Thanks this worked, with caveats I got this working in Dolphin now that I have a few minutes the magic ingredients were from the KDE start bar type "smb" then select "windows shares" and input my u/p Hadlock:Password. Then created a new smb thing via hidden right click menu (i forget which one, it's not the first two obvious ones) and found the correct syntax in an error message  which wassmb://hadlock@SERVERname.local/SHAREname:445 Before I connected, I visited servername.local in chrome to validate my '.local' DNS had been correctly fetched (takes a while on windows machines, in particular)
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Jun 26, 2023 21:54
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Lifroc posted:I might install XFCE if/when they get Wayland. XFCE uses GTK stuff, but they have their own window manager + compositor etc and they're still not Wayland ready. ExcessBLarg! posted:KDE is fine these days, I guess? KWin gets some bonus points for being one of the first Wayland compositors that wasn't just based on the Weston reference implementation. I mean, I did use KDE for years particularly in the 3.x era, but I found that it was generally too busy for what I really wanted. Yeah, I disliked KDE every time I looked at it before Plasma, hated the XP-rear end plastic aesthetic. (Which TBF I hated in Windows too.) If XFCE hadn't been so behind on Wayland I probably wouldn't have tried it out, I'd used XFCE mostly when dabbling with linux stuff previously. Hadlock posted:I got this working in Dolphin now that I have a few minutes This sounds like it may be your router more than anything else that's the problem, if the .local lookup is taking a while. I can't remember, did you ever try just finding the IP of the PC you wanted to connect to and doing smb://192.168.whatever? (I've not had that type of problem at all, but my router is set up well including putting the PCs on static IPs.)
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Jun 26, 2023 22:40
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The router is whatever Google was selling as the Nest Router in October of 2020, the smooth matte finish one with the rounded top and bottom. Presumably it's not total garbage but I stopped paying attention to routers after the purchase of my OnHub router in April 2016
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Jun 26, 2023 22:45
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I have written packages for Debian, Arch and rpms, and I still don't understand what the more complex systems like deb/rpm have over Arch's makepkg. They have a lot of ceremony and bullshit for minimal added benefit that's only really relevant for companies that need full control over their package pipeline. "Oh you can list all patches applied, and a changelog". Just store that information as a regular file inside the tarball, instead of cramming it into a weirdly clunky .spec file. I know someone ported makepkg and AUR to Debian but AFAIK no serious person uses it.
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Jun 26, 2023 22:52
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Using the AUR in Debian just seems so, like, philosophically weird. If you're the type of person who wants the AUR then aren't you also the type of person that doesn't want Debian? I'm not saying I'm against it existing or anything, I'm all for pointless things just for the sake of doing them.
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Jun 26, 2023 23:03
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Debian is more than just the deb packages. Sometimes you want to create your own packages or patch existing ones, and while it is as fun as poking your eyes to create a regular deb, it's a walk in the park with makepkg. These days I use Fedora and every time I need to patch a package I need to consult my rpm packaging notes because it's so convoluted. Not to mention the brain-dead tendency of rpm tools to pollute your home with SPECS, RPMS directories and a few other. That's just rude.
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Jun 26, 2023 23:26
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Lifroc posted:Debian is more than just the deb packages. Sometimes you want to create your own packages or patch existing ones, and while it is as fun as poking your eyes to create a regular deb, it's a walk in the park with makepkg. I remember being thoroughly enraged to find that Debian and Red Hat had both patched the Screen program to handle backspace differently. Like, this problem is just never going to die, apparently, if the big two players are putting their stakes in opposite camps and patching away developers' attempts to standardize it. That was actually one of the formative experiences that sent me over to Arch, actually. Red Hat's patch set was particularly irritating to me.
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Jun 26, 2023 23:39
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Lifroc posted:Not to mention the brain-dead tendency of rpm tools to pollute your home with SPECS, RPMS directories and a few other. That's just rude. That's why I use a container to build RPMs (or any other software for that matter).
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Jun 27, 2023 10:11
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Having to use the terminal to set up the entire install that should be a gui install is what turned me off of using it, vs other flavors of Linux.
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Jun 27, 2023 14:15
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GreenBuckanneer posted:Having to use the terminal to set up the entire install that should be a gui install is what turned me off of using it, vs other flavors of Linux. I presume you're talking about Arch. I actually really enjoyed that aspect of it! I guess that just goes to show that a stick in the hand is worth two grapes!
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Jun 27, 2023 14:28
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I went back to just using arch. As fiddly as the install process is, at least if something goes wrong it's pretty easy to diagnose and fix. Last time I just used the install script and apart from one weird bug where it got confused which hard drive to install the os to, it was mostly painless and very quick. This time I did it all manually again and it's just remembering small things like enabling a few things in systemd to get the internet up and running. I will say I played around with some live CDs in the meantime and Wayland really seems to be that much better out of the box with so little effort compared to xorg. I had so many annoying screen tears and glitches with xorg but everything just kinda worked with Wayland.
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Jun 27, 2023 14:48
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Wayland is the way.
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Jun 27, 2023 15:34
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GreenBuckanneer posted:Having to use the terminal to set up the entire install that should be a gui install is what turned me off of using it, vs other flavors of Linux. Visually, Windows 10 and Windows 11 installs don't look like the Windows 98 or even Windows XP installers, which is mostly down to the window decorations and the lack of the loving-awful sidebar they were going for. However, I really don't understand what's so bad about a dialog(1) based installer, but I suspect it's because I've gotten so used to them over 20 years, that I can't see the forest for the trees.
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Jun 27, 2023 17:57
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Can I ask you to put into words why you find this so off-putting? I don't think Arch uses dialog(1). At least, last time I set it up, you walked through a wiki page that told you what to type at the prompt in order to set various things up. I appreciated it a lot, because I like knowing how things work: crucially, the wiki page also walked you through *why* you were doing each step, and what impact it had on the system. But someone who wanted to experience the majesty of Linux on the Desktop might understandably be put off by this.
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Jun 27, 2023 18:11
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cruft posted:I don't think Arch uses dialog(1). At least, last time I set it up, you walked through a wiki page that told you what to type at the prompt in order to set various things up. I appreciated it a lot, because I like knowing how things work: crucially, the wiki page also walked you through *why* you were doing each step, and what impact it had on the system. But someone who wanted to experience the majesty of Linux on the Desktop might understandably be put off by this. At that point, you might as well just have people run a few tar commands and install(1). I forget when FreeBSD switched to bsdinstall, but sysinstall before it also used dialog(1).
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Jun 27, 2023 18:25
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:when I've got multiple presentations going on at various BSD conferences that I'm attending virtually That’s it, that’s the thread. (But too long for a title.) I legit laughed with joy when I read that, it is so perfectly BlankSystemDaemon. No irony, I love you fellow nerd poster. (At first I thought you meant you were presenting to multiple conferences at the same time and I was super impressed with the efficiency.) I used to work with an “owned a daemon costume”-grade FreeBSD advocate in the 90s and I think developed a special sensitivity to it, but there’s some truly excellent engineering in there that I’m glad Linux can copy.
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Jun 27, 2023 18:31
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Can I ask you to put into words why you find this so off-putting? Because, while yes, it's Linux, so it's accepted there is some difficulty, right from the get go needing to type out long strings for several pages into the terminal with each step is pretty annoying, especially if you mess something up like you didn't turn something on in the vm or the bios and now you have to shut it down and start completely over. VS Ubuntu install where you click poo poo with a mouse and it automates the tedium for you I'm more understanding of the former if it's in 2023 to do some power user poo poo, not, what should be the most brainless part of an OS' first impression Edit of course the other benefit is because Ubuntu is more popular, going with a distro where there is likely to be a guide online that helps you do the task is also helpful GreenBuckanneer fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jun 27, 2023 |
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Jun 27, 2023 20:11
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GreenBuckanneer posted:Because, while yes, it's Linux, so it's accepted there is some difficulty, right from the get go needing to type out long strings for several pages into the terminal with each step is pretty annoying, especially if you mess something up like you didn't turn something on in the vm or the bios and now you have to shut it down and start completely over. I know that RedHat, SUSE, etc., had easier installers back then, albeit perhaps not as flexible. Manually installing Arch from live boot media is ... fine, if you want to do that. It's also tedious, and I'm not convinced that folks really "learn" much by tying in a bunch of arcane commands for which they have little context. Also how much is the user really learning if they're not boostrapping the live boot media themselves?
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Jun 27, 2023 20:26
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ExcessBLarg! posted:Manually installing Arch from live boot media is ... fine, if you want to do that. It's also tedious, and I'm not convinced that folks really "learn" much by tying in a bunch of arcane commands for which they have little context. Also how much is the user really learning if they're not boostrapping the live boot media themselves? I learned quite a bit from it  But I will readily concede it is not a general purpose distro. My rule of thumb used to be, if you wanted to install Linux, I said Ubuntu. If you wanted to know what distro, I said Debian. If you wanted to know what I ran, I said Arch. Lately, I don't know any more, for any of those questions.
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Jun 27, 2023 20:29
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Does anybody actually daily drive vanilla Gnome 3 besides the people who actively develop on the project? Just seems like a huge pile of bad design decisions I wasn't sure what GUI I had previously installed in 2020 and accidentally installed Gnome 3 instead of KDE, but it was glaringly obvious when the start button went missing, as did the minimize/maximize buttons I guess Cinnamon and Mint are the successors to Gnome 2
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Jun 27, 2023 21:06
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cruft posted:I learned quite a bit from it Like, sure, manually running fdisk is fine (and also something you can do in other installers anyways), but the installation guide just looks tedious without really explaining much about a running system.
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Jun 27, 2023 21:08
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Hadlock posted:Does anybody actually daily drive vanilla Gnome 3 besides the people who actively develop on the project? Just seems like a huge pile of bad design decisions And not only that, to get multiple running apps showing they walk you through installing a browser plugin that can in turn install Gnome shell extensions, goddamn. I feel like I'm being trolled. Edit:  Look at all the empty space that could still be showing the running apps LOL. Less Fat Luke fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jun 27, 2023 |
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Jun 27, 2023 21:22
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ExcessBLarg! posted:Yeah, learned what though. The nuances of UEFI booting? As a matter of fact, yes. I wound up using this knowledge on our on-prem cloud architecture at work. Like I said, it's not for everyone, but Arch is just excellent for people who really want to dig in and understand as much as possible. I used to recommend Slackware for this purpose, back in the 90s, because everything it installed was half-broken, and you'd have to learn how to fix it. Arch is better for this.
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Jun 27, 2023 21:45
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Hadlock posted:Does anybody actually daily drive vanilla Gnome 3 besides the people who actively develop on the project? Just seems like a huge pile of bad design decisions I use gnome3 with like three boring plugins. It's fine.
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Jun 27, 2023 21:52
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Associate Christ
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Less Fat Luke posted:I just tried the latest Debian package of Gnome on a throwaway VM and... they literally removed the feature where the taskbar of the desktop shows multiple apps. Like, you have to now click Activities then click the window you want to switch to if you're using maximized or non-overlapping apps. What the gently caress? Yeah, it rules, you ram your mouse cursor into the corner and then click the window you want.
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Jun 27, 2023 22:17
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I'm convinced GNOME is just some elaborate troll, it is truly the worst of all worlds.
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Jun 27, 2023 22:20
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GTK always looked like a gui made with programmer art to me. They did teach themselves to make better programmer art over the years but it's lipstick on a pig.
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Jun 27, 2023 22:24
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cruft posted:Like I said, it's not for everyone, but Arch is just excellent for people who really want to dig in and understand as much as possible. Honestly the thing that separates Arch from Debian unstable is more consistent Wiki documentation, otherwise I don't really get the purpose of Arch as it doesn't seem to actually fill a niche other than the documentation, and not having an official installer is one of the reasons it feels like a half-baked distribution otherwise. I mean, I'm not trying to turn it into a distro war. I accept Arch exists because people want it to exist, fair enough. I just don't agree that "being forced to do something" (like a manual install) is inherently better when you can easily do a manual installation with plenty of other distributions with the option of using a graphical installer too.
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Jun 27, 2023 22:48
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ExcessBLarg! posted:I mean, I'm not trying to turn it into a distro war. I accept Arch exists because people want it to exist, fair enough. I just don't agree that "being forced to do something" (like a manual install) is inherently better when you can easily do a manual installation with plenty of other distributions with the option of using a graphical installer too. You seem conflicted about whether this distro has a reason to exist.
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Jun 27, 2023 22:57
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You aren’t forced to do a manual install. You are choosing to do a manual install when you choose unadulterated Arch. Arch is for people who want that experience, whatever the reason (boredom, a quest for enlightenment, typing practice). If they didn’t want that, they’d choose EndeavourOS or something.
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Jun 27, 2023 22:58
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other people posted:I use gnome3 with like three boring plugins. It's fine. I also used Gnome3 and I liked the design a whole lot. For reference, before that, I used 9wm, and I liked it so much, I took over maintenance of the source code. Now I'm using Windows and it's fine. Whatever. I miss being able to jam my cursor in the top-left corner, but you can type Meta-Tab, so whatever. I've had to adapt to so many different user interfaces at this point that I just don't care any more. ps: I'm happy to help others who have to run Windows but are allowed to install WSL2. It is pretty cool. cruft fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jun 27, 2023 |
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Jun 27, 2023 22:58
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the actual reason arch exists is for people who want packages to update as soon as upstream releases them and with no modifications by the distro maintainers.
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Jun 27, 2023 22:59
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cruft posted:You seem conflicted about whether this distro has a reason to exist. I guess the answer is that it's generally closer to upstream, has a bit less friction, but is more loosey-goosey about package dependencies and understood that you should always be running the most recent version of existing package when installing anything new.
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Jun 27, 2023 23:49
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ExcessBLarg! posted:
it is also pretty barebones in its default incarnation, and has no strong ties to any particular DE, so it's a popular choice for those who want to assemble their own desktop with a tiling WM, TUI, or something else that's not well served by most of the big distros. It appealed to me mainly because it was small enough that i could fit it into my brain and feel like i had a reasonable understanding of its components, and allow me to replace those components piecemeal if i wanted a particular feature or piece of software that wasn't covered by the defaults. No one can really convince you of its virtues (though many will try), but i think that it can be interesting to users that have any basic curiosity about how their computer/operating system works, or to appeal to power users who have a very particular idea of how they want their system to work.
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Jun 27, 2023 23:58
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Debian stable used to be a museum piece, and the community pretty hide-bound in its policies around packager agency. You very often got software materially different from what the developer of that software intended (which is why trademark fights happened sometimes), and packagers were widely variable in terms of how pleasant it was to interact with them.
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Jun 28, 2023 00:03
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pseudorandom name posted:Yeah, it rules, you ram your mouse cursor into the corner and then click the window you want. Or press the windows/meta key. IIRC you can also start typing in that view to search for applications you want to launch, so the "win, start typing" muscle memory from windows works (albeit with very different visuals). It's kind of nice when you get used to it.
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