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FFT posted:My guess is "it could be any number of things, pickled in red vinegar" Or just a sauce based on some combination of red vinegar, garum or grape must, all of which are reddish-brown and were ubiquitous in Ancient Roman cooking. It could also have been sausage or meat flavoured with some combination of those. Either way, though, there's a giant tureen of presumably dipping sauce, so I'd say this was more likely panis focacius than pizza anyway.
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Jun 28, 2023 07:26
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euphronius posted:That circle of bread was popular in Pompeii and sold from roadside carts like we have today Ah yes, the ancestor of Papa John's garlic dipping sauce
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Jun 28, 2023 07:32
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I would assume the Romans loved melty cheese just like everyone else. What maniac doesn't like melty cheese?
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Jun 28, 2023 12:47
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It's entirely possible that a mozzarella precursor was available in Pompeii by 79 CE.
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Jun 28, 2023 12:58
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cowboy
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Seriously what's so hard about believing people in the vicinity of Vesuvius ate a dish composed of a round flatbread with toppings for two thousand or so years before it suddenly became popular? Foods are one of those things that people think of as deeply entwined with the roots of their tradition since time immemorial, but when you dig into it traditional recipes have near always (there are exceptions) undergone such staggering changes even within the past couple of centuries (and definitely post-Columbian exchange) that it's often a stretch to keep thinking of it as one thing. 2000 years is a long-rear end time and most cultural roots are actually relatively shallow. But it tends to be an emotionally charged subject so it's not normally challenged. Not saying it's necessarily the case here--the word showing up nearby 1000 years ago sounds like pretty good evidence there was some semblance of continuity in this case--but my immediate angle on this subject tends to be skepticism.
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Jun 28, 2023 12:59
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a flatbread with poo poo on it is probably a nearly universal food item, so banal that its not going to be recorded often
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Jun 28, 2023 14:57
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Pizza was famously invented by Gaius Minimus Caesar
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Jun 28, 2023 16:15
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The Pizza Pizza of Ancient Rome. The will to make a sandwich or it’s cognate seems nigh universal. Soup plus sandwich equals civilization.
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Jun 28, 2023 16:46
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Nessus posted:The Pizza Pizza of Ancient Rome. Nah, soup and sandwich is just settled living. Capital-C Civilization is when someone starts selling tasty grilled meats on bread from a cart in the public square.
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Jun 28, 2023 17:17
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Cyrano4747 posted:Capital-C Civilization is when someone starts selling tasty grilled meats on bread from a cart in the public square.
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Jun 28, 2023 17:31
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The reason why there's pushback is because it's a pretty bold claim for a rather complicated issue and there's really not enough there to be saying meaningful poo poo with any real degree of confidence. Like we are kinda joking about in the thread, but how are you defining pizza? Is it flat bread with a sauce and other toppings? That's a pretty broad category that might encompass a whole lot of food items, flatbread with honey and dates on it would meet that criteria for example. And I mean that's a totally valid way to define it, but I feel like you loose a lot of the "Oomph" in your pizza claim when you do that and you open yourself up to some other things. The lignustical evidence presented in the previous linked page is also not super great and pretty broad as the narrowest it gets down to is basically "a piece of bread" while if you go with the proposed pitta route it's a "flat piece of bread". This is really not enough to make a claim that it's discussing the specific dish we are discussing, either, at least at this point in time. There's a suggested link to the full paper in Italian but I'm not reading that, sorry. It's an interesting (and fun) theory but it's the type of poo poo I would joke about in the field or discuss at a bar or over the campfire, there's not really enough there for me to be comfortable presenting that claim in a professional environment or to the news, imo. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Jun 28, 2023 |
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Jun 28, 2023 18:11
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It is a goofy human interest story, for fun.
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Jun 28, 2023 18:32
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no tomato, no pizza, capisce?
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Jun 28, 2023 19:05
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Cyrano4747 posted:Take this with a huuuuuuuge grain of salt. I mean, some of it is probably totally legit, but this was also basically propaganda written by a politician for a specific reason, and that reason was impressing the folks back home and aggrandizing himself. So when he describes some quirky cultural practice it might be exactly as he saw it, he might be embellishing it for a specific reason, or it might be made up entirely. Why would someone do this? To add color to the account, to conform to some traditional moral or structure of Roman story telling, or for some other reason that is opaque to us because it relies on the reader being steeped in the same 1st century BC Imperial culture as Caesar. Or more appositely reading Churchill's own history of WW2, which does exist.
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Jun 28, 2023 22:26
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feedmegin posted:Or more appositely reading Churchill's own history of WW2, which does exist. Did he admit to any mistakes? From what I know he spends a lot of time explaining why he did what he did and he was perfectly correct to do so. Same goes for Churchill.
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Jun 29, 2023 01:37
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I've been rewatching hbo's Rome in the background at work recently and I have what is probably a really minor question. It frequently shows the generals/caesars/etc using a soldier who has gotten on their hands and knees as a stepstool to mount their horse. I know that Rome didn't have stirrups/saddle horns and the like, but is there any historicity to that little detail specifically? Or is that something they made up since it seems sufficiently imperious? One would think with all the rest of poo poo in the baggage train they'd have a stepstool for the important people to get on their horse instead of vaulting onto it.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:04
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"maize was invented in India" is just flying up my list of favorite conspiracy theories, like a lower stakes and dumber version of phantom time. love a good pseudohistoryMad Hamish posted:What maniac doesn't like melty cheese? Most of Asia and a lot of Africa, for starters. ChubbyChecker posted:no tomato, no pizza, capisce? most pizzerias sell white slices
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Jun 30, 2023 04:26
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Admiral Bosch posted:I've been rewatching hbo's Rome in the background at work recently and I have what is probably a really minor question. It frequently shows the generals/caesars/etc using a soldier who has gotten on their hands and knees as a stepstool to mount their horse. I know that Rome didn't have stirrups/saddle horns and the like, but is there any historicity to that little detail specifically? Or is that something they made up since it seems sufficiently imperious? One would think with all the rest of poo poo in the baggage train they'd have a stepstool for the important people to get on their horse instead of vaulting onto it. That can gently caress up knees and legs, whereas backs are somewhat armored or at least have the support of all four limbs. So, again, still speaking entirely out of my rear end, it does make a sort of sense as both a power move and not injuring soldiers.
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Jun 30, 2023 11:21
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Tulip posted:Most of Asia and a lot of Africa, for starters. I know at least Koreans are crazy about melty cheese despite lactose intolerance, I’m not sure this tracks. 
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Jun 30, 2023 11:41
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FFT posted:From first principles (i.e. I am talking out of my rear end) it's a hell of a lot more hassle to go "fetch the mounting stool!" than it is for someone nearby to get on one knee so the other knee can be used as a step. Pretty much, it's the position where the soldier can bear the most weight and they're probably wearing enough armour it's not a big discomfort. Also I imagine helps when the generals and Caesars are at least middle aged and no longer as strong or spry as they used to be.
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Jun 30, 2023 13:05
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FFT posted:From first principles (i.e. I am talking out of my rear end) it's a hell of a lot more hassle to go "fetch the mounting stool!" than it is for someone nearby to get on one knee so the other knee can be used as a step. The best thing to do is to capture a Roman emperor and use him.
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Jun 30, 2023 14:54
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zoux posted:The best thing to do is to capture a Roman emperor and use him.
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Jun 30, 2023 18:03
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Tulip posted:"maize was invented in India" is just flying up my list of favorite conspiracy theories, like a lower stakes and dumber version of phantom time. love a good pseudohistory Koramei posted:I know at least Koreans are crazy about melty cheese despite lactose intolerance, I’m not sure this tracks. There are a lot of misconceptions about lactose intolerance. One of the most common ones is that cheese contains about as much lactose as other milk products. In fact cheeses contain like 1% the lactose of fresh milk products, and that falls pretty steeply as the cheese is salted and aged.
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Jun 30, 2023 19:24
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What about yogurt? It’s not remotely as much of a staple as in the west but in my experience both milk and yogurt are a lot more popular than you’d think looking at lactose intolerance alone. No clue how that extrapolates to other parts of Asia though, whereas I’m kinda willing to bet with no shortage of overconfidence that melty cheese is a worldwide thing.
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Jun 30, 2023 19:51
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At this point I just want people to provide some evidence, any evidence at all other than goon love of junk food. Cultural universals are rare and very difficult to demonstrate and very potent when found. And no, contemporary restaurants don't count. This is the ancient history thread.
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Jun 30, 2023 20:53
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Oh, definitely not for premodern history, I thought we were talking about modern times (and half in jest). In premodern Korea plant milks were more of a thing but cow milk was an expensive luxury, treated as a medicine. Just flipping through Michael J Pettid's Korean Cuisine: An Illustrated History apparently it started taking off via foreign food aid after the Korean War, and then dairy in general shot up from government initiaties starting in the 1970s.
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Jun 30, 2023 21:53
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Unrelatedly, the ACOUP for today is probably gonna be of interest to a bunch of people in this thread: https://acoup.blog/2023/06/30/collections-the-marian-reforms-werent-a-thing/ As you can maybe sense from the title, he talks about how the Marian reforms (the alleged reforms of the late Republican Roman army from one based on landed conscripts to a state-supplied professional force) weren't a thing; many of the changes traditionally attributed to Marius never even happened, and those that did nearly all shouldn't be credited to Marius. Apparently this has been a known thing in Roman scholarship for absolutely ages now, but having grown up with Rome Total War I was definitely not aware of that.
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Jun 30, 2023 22:11
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I have to disagree
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Jun 30, 2023 22:17
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Gaius Marius posted:I have to disagree hes got a point
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Jun 30, 2023 22:54
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Arglebargle III posted:There are a lot of misconceptions about lactose intolerance. One of the most common ones is that cheese contains about as much lactose as other milk products. In fact cheeses contain like 1% the lactose of fresh milk products, and that falls pretty steeply as the cheese is salted and aged. You can make a lot of gas with a tiny bit of sugar. Some folks can tolerate the low lactose cheeses some can’t.
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Jul 1, 2023 03:29
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And a lot of people may just be fine going around farting all day. See that one goon. The military not being reformed all at once makes more sense to me, really, that usually doesn't happen that fast, in ancient or modern times. Things change because of material conditions, experiments in doctrine and tactics, and implementation of new equipment that usually takes a long time to proliferate through a large and complex organisation that relies on social ties and human knowledge bases to function. You can't just make a new army overnight.
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Jul 1, 2023 10:09
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Ghost Leviathan posted:You can't just make a new army overnight. Maybe you can't, but a Great Man with suitable parentage 
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Jul 1, 2023 10:58
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Ghost Leviathan posted:You can't just make a new army overnight. Perhaps if Pompey were to start stamping his foot
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Jul 1, 2023 11:21
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The Marian legions using their rations of pecorino romano to make pizzas on flatbread with garum.
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Jul 1, 2023 12:06
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Telsa Cola posted:The reason why there's pushback is because it's a pretty bold claim for a rather complicated issue and there's really not enough there to be saying meaningful poo poo with any real degree of confidence. I showed that fresco to one of my colleagues, who is Italian. He confirmed it's a pizza, case closed
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Jul 1, 2023 12:46
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I just bought her book so haven't read it yet, bu this article is relevant and talks about the modern nature of a lot of food culture, and how what we think of as ancient food traditions, aren't.Libluini posted:I showed that fresco to one of my colleagues, who is Italian. He confirmed it's a pizza, case closed Hot can you trust the Italians on food? They don't even put peas in their carbonara!!
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Jul 1, 2023 20:14
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Besides pizza is from New York
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Jul 1, 2023 21:11
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Carillon posted:I just bought her book so haven't read it yet, bu this article is relevant and talks about the modern nature of a lot of food culture, and how what we think of as ancient food traditions, aren't. Lol, peas don't go with cream.
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Jul 2, 2023 04:22
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Elissimpark posted:Lol, peas don't go with cream. I eat my peas with honey I've done it all my life It makes the peas taste funny But it keeps them on my knife.
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Jul 2, 2023 04:47
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Deteriorata posted:I eat my peas with honey I actually tried peas with honey one time after hearing this and it was not very good. I figured since it works for corn... but no. Also maple syrup is uniquely disgusting on peas. Be wary.
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Jul 2, 2023 15:26
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