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BonHair posted:Yes, only white nationalists can do lovely provocations. Okay, fine, so which anti-"marginalized groups" rhetoric is being used here? BlankSystemDaemon posted:I'm not likely to trust the words of someone who's in the habit of burning them. Habit?
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Jun 29, 2023 10:16
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Jack Trades posted:Okay, fine, so which anti-"marginalized groups" rhetoric is being used here? Burning the Qur'an, which is a symbol of Muslims, which again is shorthand for people from the middle east. Like, it's a very clear "we don't want your kind of people around" performance. The fact that the guy doing it this time sees himself as "one of the good ones" is largely unimportant.
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Jun 29, 2023 10:29
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BonHair posted:Burning the Qur'an, which is a symbol of Muslims, which again is shorthand for people from the middle east. Like, it's a very clear "we don't want your kind of people around" performance. The fact that the guy doing it this time sees himself as "one of the good ones" is largely unimportant. That's one hell of a leap of logic. Is the Bible a shorthand for white people?
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Jun 29, 2023 10:31
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Jack Trades posted:That's one hell of a leap of logic. You must not live in the same world that I do, that is basically 30 years of Danish and broader European discourse. See also migration crises, integration discourse and even The Great Replacement which is picking up speed for some reason. The reason is racism
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Jun 29, 2023 10:45
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BonHair posted:You must not live in the same world that I do, that is basically 30 years of Danish and broader European discourse. See also migration crises, integration discourse and even The Great Replacement which is picking up speed for some reason. The reason is racism I've seen those people refer to "gangcriminals", "welfaretakers", "new-swedes", "S voterbase", etc as a slightly more subtle way to talk about immigrants but no, I can't say I've seen anyone point at a loving Quran when doing that. Even if that was the case, in my opinion that would fall under the "broken clock is right twice a day".
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Jun 29, 2023 10:51
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V. Illych L. posted:considering how little news normally gets to us of finnish politics, the "ironic" nazi guy has made a gaffe of real dimensions. i think that even in denmark he would be forced out over something like this, especially given the general distaste that usually accompanies breaching a cordon sanitaire and the tendency to insist that "no no they're not that bad, honest". Morten Messerschmidt, the current leader of DF, once did a nazi salute and sang "Deutschland über Alles" in Tivoli in front of several journalists. I mean, he originally left the party voluntarily for a short while, but after that the story was the journalists had lied—which is to say, he won a defamation suit, because the headline had included the words "praised Hitler", and clearly doing a nazi salute while singing a nazi song doesn't indicate such intent. The party had also claimed it was a case between the newspaper and him personally, meanwhile paying for his lawyers and working to get him back in the fold. For comparison, Marie Krarup, daughter of DF's grand old man and fan of Martin Luther's antisemitic writings, Søren Krarup, was excluded almost instantly for saying we should take Putin's nuclear arsenal seriously. Somaen posted:If NATO is going back to having a Nazi there's only one thing left to do. We must go back to our roots and ally with the nazis to divide up.europe and supply them with resources, to own the NATO libs, just like Stalin would have done I assume this "alliance" is referencing Molotov-Ribbentrop, which indicates you have a very poor understanding of history. You realize Poland had a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany as well and the broader European take on Hitler at the time was appeasement, whereas the Soviet Union had been trying to establish an alliance to take him out before he rearmed, and was rebuffed at every turn? And also that tens of millions of Soviet citizens ultimately lost their lives in the effort to defeat him, without which your country would have likely remained a nazi vassal and most of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Ukraine and the Baltics would've been exterminated? Jack Trades posted:I've seen those people refer to "gangcriminals", "welfaretakers", "new-swedes", "S voterbase", etc as a slightly more subtle way to talk about immigrants but no, I can't say I've seen anyone point at a loving Quran when doing that. Then you haven't been paying attention at all.
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Jun 29, 2023 13:34
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I don't think Polish-German non-aggression pact had a clause that divided eastern-Europe between them that directly led to Poles annexing countries, deporting politically suspect people to Siberia from them, invading a country in a war of aggression leading to hundreds of thousands of dead and maimed and co-invading with nazis one other country where they massacred tens of thousands of prisoners and then proceeded to cover it up.....
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Jun 29, 2023 13:47
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Glah posted:I don't think Polish-German non-aggression pact had a clause that divided eastern-Europe between them that directly led to Poles annexing countries, deporting politically suspect people to Siberia from them, invading a country in a war of aggression leading to hundreds of thousands of dead and maimed and co-invading with nazis one other country where they massacred tens of thousands of prisoners and then proceeded to cover it up..... I don't think the Polish pact with Czechoslovakia had a clause for dividing their country with Nazi Germany, either, but the alternative was clearly unimaginably worse by any standard. I agree that the European powers should have partnered with the Soviets before it came to that, though.
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Jun 29, 2023 14:04
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Poland helped themselves to a piece of Czechoslovakia during the Anschluss. Small piece compared to what the soviets took from them to be sure, which itself was a recent polish conquest from the Polish-Soviet war, although it belonged to "them" at one point before the polish partition.
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Jun 29, 2023 14:09
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I like the implication of how some tough love was ok because the alternative is much worse (the alternative being that somehow not brutalizing eastern Europe before nazi invasion would have meant that nazis would have won). Also how Britain and France were appeasers to fascists because of them buying time in -38 and then declaring war on nazis in -39, but allying with nazis in -39 was just smart real politiks.
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Jun 29, 2023 14:17
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SplitSoul posted:Morten Messerschmidt, the current leader of DF, once did a nazi salute and sang "Deutschland über Alles" in Tivoli in front of several journalists. I mean, he originally left the party voluntarily for a short while, but after that the story was the journalists had lied—which is to say, he won a defamation suit, because the headline had included the words "praised Hitler", and clearly doing a nazi salute while singing a nazi song doesn't indicate such intent. The party had also claimed it was a case between the newspaper and him personally, meanwhile paying for his lawyers and working to get him back in the fold.
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Jun 29, 2023 14:18
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Glah posted:I like the implication of how some tough love was ok because the alternative is much worse (the alternative being that somehow not brutalizing eastern Europe before nazi invasion would have meant that nazis would have won). Also how Britain and France were appeasers to fascists because of them buying time in -38 and then declaring war on nazis in -39, but allying with nazis in -39 was just smart real politiks. That is the context in which the Soviets decided to make a deal with the devil, to greatly reduce the risk of a detente that would have seen Hitler get the green light to go east with all his fascist allies while still trading with the West. Actually, further context would be the Soviets having been invaded two decades earlier, by literally everyone they were trying to create an anti-Hitler alliance with, because the people in charge wanted the Communists destroyed. "The Brits manage to finagle a solution which allows Hitler to get the Poles on his side (at least until the USSR is destroyed)" was not an entirely unfounded worry, and would have been much worse for everyone in the end.
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Jun 29, 2023 15:10
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was, as mentioned, basically just a bigger version of what the Poles did to Czechoslovakia during a period where the Soviets were still trying to get everyone to gang up on Hitler. Poland ended up getting invaded because it and its allies were more anti-Communist/Russian than anti-Hitler. The entire lead-up to the war is basically the Soviets going "Let's stop this man" and France, Britain and Poland going "But he hates you even more than we hate you". Plus the Brits and Americans making money off Hitler, and some of them explicitly trying to create a detente with Hitler so that he'd be free to unleash a hellwar upon the Soviets. It is true that annexing three countries and invading two resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths can technically be seen as a "bigger version" of Poles annexing part of Czechoslovakia alongside nazis, but the main point was that both are lovely things to do and you shouldn't try to justify brutalization of eastern Europe as necessary evil in defeating the nazis. Like as if Stalin was struggling in somekind of trolley problem where on one rail were the victims of Katyn, Winter War and soviet deportations in Baltics and the other rail had victims of nazis.... Also I understand the Soviet motivations behind their allying with the nazis. It's just that people decrying French and Brits as appeasers while saying that Soviets had no choice but to ally with nazis rings kinda hollow.
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Jun 29, 2023 15:31
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SplitSoul posted:I assume this "alliance" is referencing Molotov-Ribbentrop, which indicates you have a very poor understanding of history. You realize Poland had a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany as well and the broader European take on Hitler at the time was appeasement, whereas the Soviet Union had been trying to establish an alliance to take him out before he rearmed, and was rebuffed at every turn? And also that tens of millions of Soviet citizens ultimately lost their lives in the effort to defeat him, without which your country would have likely remained a nazi vassal and most of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Belarus, Ukraine and the Baltics would've been exterminated? What's "my country"? my soviet relatives died in WW2 because uncle Joe thought it's a grand idea to sell resources to his bud H so that the nazis could invade and take over Europe and kept doing it until the day he invaded the soviet union itself. Aren't you from Denmark, the most racist country on the continent? Sure I believe you hate the nazis, the ones that aren't white enough
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Jun 29, 2023 15:37
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Glah posted:I like the implication of how some tough love was ok because the alternative is much worse (the alternative being that somehow not brutalizing eastern Europe before nazi invasion would have meant that nazis would have won). Also how Britain and France were appeasers to fascists because of them buying time in -38 and then declaring war on nazis in -39, but allying with nazis in -39 was just smart real politiks. I'm not implying anything of the sort—like I said, the western powers should've probably heeded the Soviet warnings long in advance and results would've been much different—but at the time the alternative to partial Soviet occupation was a total nazi occupation and the eventual extermination of most of the Polish populace. A Buttery Pastry posted:The Deutschlandlied is not a Nazi song, though its use alongside a Nazi salute does make it clear that Messerschmidt believes it to be one. Or at least spiritually close enough for it not to matter. Probably a reason they changed it in 1945, though... Glah posted:Also I understand the Soviet motivations behind their allying with the nazis. It's just that people decrying French and Brits as appeasers while saying that Soviets had no choice but to ally with nazis rings kinda hollow. That's not what I was saying. Somaen was the one drawing an equivalence between being a nazi and entering a non-aggression pact, I was putting Molotov-Ribbentrop in context of what else had been going on. Somaen posted:What's "my country"? my soviet relatives died in WW2 because uncle Joe thought it's a grand idea to sell resources to his bud H so that the nazis could invade and take over Europe and kept doing it until the day he invaded the soviet union itself. Aren't you from Denmark, the most racist country on the continent? Sure I believe you hate the nazis, the ones that aren't white enough I thought you were Finnish, I apologize if that's not the case. I'm responsible for roughly 35 pages of posts primarily railing against Danish racism ITT and also have Eastern European Jewish heritage, but thanks.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:11
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SplitSoul posted:I'm not implying anything of the sort—like I said, the western powers should've probably heeded the Soviet warnings long in advance and results would've been much different—but at the time the alternative to partial Soviet occupation was a total nazi occupation and the eventual extermination of most of the Polish populace. You aren't implying anything of the sort and then continue on saying that "the alternative to partial Soviet occupation was a total nazi occupation and the eventual extermination of most of the Polish populace.". Soviets didn't have any choice but to murder 20 000 Polish prisoners at Katyn because the alternative was that nazis would win and get to implement general plan ost in its totality? I really have a hard time understanding how brutalization of eastern Europeans was necessary to stop the even more total brutalization of eastern Europe.... Were Soviets doing a favour to Balts, Finns and Poles during the time Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was in effect?
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Jun 29, 2023 16:20
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Glah posted:It is true that annexing three countries and invading two resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths can technically be seen as a "bigger version" of Poles annexing part of Czechoslovakia alongside nazis, but the main point was that both are lovely things to do and you shouldn't try to justify brutalization of eastern Europe as necessary evil in defeating the nazis. Like as if Stalin was struggling in somekind of trolley problem where on one rail were the victims of Katyn, Winter War and soviet deportations in Baltics and the other rail had victims of nazis.... 1. The USSR tries to set up an alliance to stop Hitler by force, when Nazi Germany is still very weak and Hitler has not yet consolidated power by beating up his neighbors. France and Britain decline, and sell out Czechoslovakia in the process. 2. Its efforts to built an alliance having been repeatedly rebuffed, the USSR is on its own. It chooses what it sees as the least worst option left to it, the option which forces the alliance eventually, rather than risk having to stand alone against (an American-financed) Hitler. Those are not equivalent choices. Britain and France had the option to prevent the war, the Soviets only the power to ensure they'd win in the end. It doesn't justify everything, but strategically the two are not the same at all. SplitSoul posted:Probably a reason they changed it in 1945, though...
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Jun 29, 2023 16:25
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You seem to be implying some sort of hypocrisy here, but we're dealing with these two situations: Like I said, I understand Soviet motivations in getting close to nazis. It was real politiks. Just like French and British appeasement in -38, while giving the appearance of humanistic rejection of horrors of world war, was more real politiks too, because allies weren't ready for war then. It is no surprise that Chamberlain upped the defense spending immediately after Munich agreement. My implication of hypocrisy was about people who decry French and Brits as fascist appeasers while saluting the craftiness and realism of Soviet foreign policy when they allied with fascists.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:33
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Glah posted:You aren't implying anything of the sort and then continue on saying that "the alternative to partial Soviet occupation was a total nazi occupation and the eventual extermination of most of the Polish populace.". Soviets didn't have any choice but to murder 20 000 Polish prisoners at Katyn because the alternative was that nazis would win and get to implement general plan ost in its totality? Yes, the alternative to partial Soviet occupation was a total nazi occupation, I can't see why this is a controversial take. I'm not implying that Soviet occupation was benevolent or fair, I'm saying it was preferable to having ~85% of the population exterminated in ditches, furnaces and gas chambers. I'll happily add that Katyn, bad as it was, utterly pales in comparison to both the conduct and prospective plans of the nazis. Did the countries in question fare better under nazi vassal status? How about their Jewish and Roma populations? Also, who liberated the extermination camps? Glah posted:My implication of hypocrisy was about people who decry French and Brits as fascist appeasers while saluting the craftiness and realism of Soviet foreign policy when they allied with fascists. Literally nobody has characterized or indeed "saluted the craftiness" of Soviet realpolitik circa 1939. SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 16:36
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SplitSoul posted:Yes, the alternative to partial Soviet occupation was a total nazi occupation, I can't see why this is a controversial take. I'm not implying that Soviet occupation was benevolent or fair, I'm saying it was preferable to having ~85% of the population exterminated in ditches, furnaces and gas chambers. I'll happily add that Katyn, bad as it was, utterly pales in comparison to both the conduct and prospective plans of the nazis. Did the countries in question fare better under nazi vassal status? How about their Jewish and Roma populations? Also, who liberated the extermination camps? I guess it is good that you are happy in reflecting how much murder of 20 000 pales in comparison to murder of millions, good for you in not dwelling on human tragedy but finding some enjoyment in it. But my point has been that there was an alternative direction Soviets could have taken. They could have not murdered those 20 000 people in Katyn, they could not have annexed Baltic states, they could not have invaded Finland. Or were those absolutely necessary things to do to stop nazis from implementing General Plan Ost? A sacrifice to prevent even bigger tragedy?
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Jun 29, 2023 16:42
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Jun 29, 2023 16:50
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Can we also not do war in Ukraine classic in the Scandinavian thread?
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Jun 29, 2023 17:05
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Glah posted:Like I said, I understand Soviet motivations in getting close to nazis. It was real politiks. Just like French and British appeasement in -38, while giving the appearance of humanistic rejection of horrors of world war, was more real politiks too, because allies weren't ready for war then. It is no surprise that Chamberlain upped the defense spending immediately after Munich agreement. The Brits attempted to make it so Hitler would wage a massively devastating war in Eastern Europe against just the USSR. They were already ready for a war if they had chosen to fight alongside the USSR before Hitler bolstered his army with Czech tanks, so the argument for appeasement only works after you've accepted that taking down Hitler early with the Soviets was out of the question. The Soviets tried to prevent the war early, were rebuffed, and then went with Option B. There's no "just like" here, the French and British chose the eastern front war of WW2, they just happened to also get the western front war in the bargain.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:03
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BonHair posted:Can we also not do war in Ukraine classic in the Scandinavian thread? our countries are involved in that war, pretty deeply. it's a live and enormously significant issue. i agree that it should ideally be connected more firmly to some specific political development in scandinavia, but i do not think that a general moratorium is workable. i must admit, however, that i don't see the molotov-ribbentrop pact as terribly relevant to the issue of NATO and nazis, and i don't personally think that the nazi stuff is the main issue with NATO, i.e. i would be opposed to it even if it hadn't rehabilitated a bunch of wehrmacht guys V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 18:22
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The Brits attempted to make it so Hitler would wage a massively devastating war in Eastern Europe against just the USSR. They were already ready for a war if they had chosen to fight alongside the USSR before Hitler bolstered his army with Czech tanks, so the argument for appeasement only works after you've accepted that taking down Hitler early with the Soviets was out of the question. It could be that 'let them fight' scenario would have suited many in the British establishment, but it is also widely accepted historical interpretation that Brits at the time (-38) thought that their military was woefully unprepared to take on Germany and that they thought that Soviet military wouldn't amount to much worth in potential war. Take for example the remarks of couple high ranking Brits from the time Munich agreement was being hashed out in 1938: Chief of the General Staff, Edmund Ironside posted:We cannot expose ourselves to a German attack. We simply commit suicide if we do General Hastings Ismay posted:if war with Germany has to come, it would be better to fight her in say 6–12 months' time than to accept the present challenge So Brits thought that they couldn't challenge Germany in 1938 and they doubted Soviet capacity to do so. I think it is reflective of British estimation of Soviet military worth that they were seriously contemplating on taking military action against Soviet Union during the Phony War in 1939-1940, mostly taking interest in taking out the Soviet oil fields that were supplying the nazi war machine. If western allies were dead seat upon appeasing Germany, why did they declare war on them in 1939?
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Jun 29, 2023 18:27
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Glah posted:I guess it is good that you are happy in reflecting how much murder of 20 000 pales in comparison to murder of millions, good for you in not dwelling on human tragedy but finding some enjoyment in it. Well, at least we've discovered why history is evidently such a difficult subject for you, but I'm sure you'd be able to enroll in a remedial class to improve that reading proficiency.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:17
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Congratulations to Olav Thon, you fuckin' ghoul
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Jun 29, 2023 19:19
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Now this is a good post. With the prices they charge for hotel rooms, they can afford to pay people properly.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:29
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Wibla posted:Now this is a good post. But how would Thon pay for all those folksy red caps if he paid people a decent wage?
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Jun 29, 2023 19:34
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LOL the Finnish nazi quit anyway totally normal for a new administration to have a prominent minister survive a vote of no confidence and then resign within ten days. keep doing whatever you're doing 
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Jun 30, 2023 14:45
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jeebus bob posted:LOL the Finnish nazi quit anyway The Nazi made our fundamentalist Christian party upset with talks about eugenic abortions, which may have broke the camel's back Our country is very dumb, and I'm sorry 
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Jun 30, 2023 14:47
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the norwegian labour party installed as president of parliament a woman who immediately got exposed to a scandal which had been ongoing during the election i still can't get over how stupid that stuff was. gharakhani is doing a decent job, but in another extreme demonstration of just how incompetent stenseng is as secretary general they managed to have to immediately drop their top person in parliament like idiots
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Jun 30, 2023 18:41
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https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/seneste/danmark-faar-uniform-paa-jobbet-dagquote:Sidste onsdag i september vil fra i år få en ny betydning for reservister og frivillige i Forsvaret, Hjemmeværnet og beredskabet. Oh cool, baby steps towards American military worship  If I see someone in a military uniform in the workplace I'm more liable to dive for cover to avoid eating a negligent discharge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8stwqowEL8
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Jun 30, 2023 18:46
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Winklebottom posted:https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/seneste/danmark-faar-uniform-paa-jobbet-dag we have basically chosen militarisation as our response to the russian invasion of ukraine. it is not imo a good response, but it is understandable in a sad way. it also means that we lose a lot of our ability to say "no" to the americans, meaning that the EU/US economic disparity is only going to keep tilting in favour of the yanks. it also means that there is even less of a chance that we're going to do anything about the great environmental crises. putin's idiot insistence on being tough and the complete failure on our part to make something sustainable out of the unipolar moment might have doomed us all
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Jun 30, 2023 18:54
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At what point do we start suspect that Putin might be bankrolling them book burner chuds to cripple Sweden’s entry into NATO because if he is it’s money well spent, seems like. Gives his NATO friend an excuse to keep stonewalling.
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Jun 30, 2023 22:47
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BigglesSWE posted:At what point do we start suspect that Putin might be bankrolling them book burner chuds to cripple Sweden’s entry into NATO because if he is it’s money well spent, seems like. Gives his NATO friend an excuse to keep stonewalling. They've already sorta tried to pin that one on Paludan, because he had a defunct VK account that was friends with a member of Wagner.
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Jun 30, 2023 23:24
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BigglesSWE posted:At what point do we start suspect that Putin might be bankrolling them book burner chuds to cripple Sweden’s entry into NATO because if he is it’s money well spent, seems like. Gives his NATO friend an excuse to keep stonewalling. i think enough people like getting lots of attention from burning korans without anyone from the FSB having to pay them that such an operation would be superfluous sweden is a de-facto NATO member anyway and has been for years, i really don't think the russians care that much about their formal membership
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Jun 30, 2023 23:44
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Rust Martialis posted:Your links don't show either of Speidel or Heusinger were in any non-trivial way 'Nazis'. And the Schnez-Truppe is basically described as veterans who planned to form military units if war broke out since West Germany lacked a military. Yeah, people who point at high ranking officers in Nazi Germany's army, or former members of the Waffen-SS and scream "NAZI" are in the wrong. They were only Nazis in a trivial way, so it doesn't count. They also joined a right wing paramilitary after the war, but this is totally innocent. The Wikipedia link you didn't read posted:In 1951, Schnez offered the service of his organisation to the German intelligence service, the Gehlen Organization, the predecessor of the Bundesnachrichtendienst, to provide black lists of potentially left-leaning individuals as well as, in one case, profiling a member of the police as Halbjude (half-Jew) Who can truly know a man's heart? Esran fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Jul 1, 2023 |
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Jul 1, 2023 10:53
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Esran posted:Yeah, people who point at high ranking officers in Nazi Germany's army, or former members of the Waffen-SS and scream "NAZI" are in the wrong.
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Jul 1, 2023 12:00
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Esran posted:Yeah, people who point at high ranking officers in Nazi Germany's army, or former members of the Waffen-SS and scream "NAZI" are in the wrong. Promoted to General for blowing up Ukraine even.
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Jul 1, 2023 12:14
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