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the_steve posted:That's how they get you though. I mean, there is a paradox in your position. The candidate that you want to vote for would probably not be the candidate most people want, because you have minority opinions on a lot of issues. So then those people don’t get to vote for they want. There has to be a compromise at some point in the process, does there not? Yes, the cycle never ends. Because life never ends. Disagreement never ends. If your position is “no major party nominee has ever been worth voting for” then… okay? Consider that you might just hate politics. Ogmius815 posted:Yeah it’s almost like politics is the art of the possible and Utopianism has historically produced nightmarish results.  Byzantine posted:Yeah, and Italy was the most left-wing of the Axis Powers.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:30
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yronic heroism posted:Yes friend keeping the fascists from ascending every two years by marking a ballot does get pretty tiring but I mean so does putting the trash out and I gotta do that every week. This argument holds less merit when the party someone might want to vote for gets kicked off the balot by one of the main two parties. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 17:39
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Nucleic Acids posted:This argument holds less merit when the party someone might want to vote for gets kicked off the balot by one of the main two parties. Well I’m not sure what means of being “kicked off” you are referring to but this strikes me as a non sequitur. Also why are you asking us to worry about what I can only assume is also-ran, no-chance third party lines on the ballot and why can’t you write your favorite no-hoper in?
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Jun 29, 2023 17:50
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yronic heroism posted:Well I’m not sure what means of being “kicked off” you are referring to but this strikes me as a non sequitur. Also why are you asking us to worry about what I can only assume is also-ran, no-chance third party lines on the ballot and why can’t you write your favorite no-hoper in? Because bleating about protecting democracy while kicking other parties off the balot is hypocritical and does not make me believe the party that does this actually cares about democracy, "also-ran, no-chance" or not.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:52
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Nucleic Acids posted:Because bleating about protecting democracy while kicking other parties off the balot is hypocritical and does not make me believe the party that does this actually cares about democracy, "also-ran, no-chance" or not. It sounds like you mean to be arguing against FPTP or perhaps to replace representative democracy with direct democracy since those are the only things that are likely to get whatever third party candidate you're talking about into a place where they have a say over policy. I mean, that or them winning a primary, which is what far right people who felt underserved by the two-party system did.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:58
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That things aren't getting worse overall for everyone but the greatly wealthy is a deeply unserious argument.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:58
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NA is moving the goalposts. Stopping fascism is not necessarily interchangeable with promoting NA’s view of what democracy is, and they didn’t specify by what means someone was “kicked off” a ballot. (What, they didn’t qualify so they weren’t on there? Shocking.) My argument is that voting for the only viable alternative to the openly fascist party is by definition the most cost-effective thing the average person can do against fascism. yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 18:01
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yronic heroism posted:Well I’m not sure what means of being “kicked off” you are referring to but this strikes me as a non sequitur. Also why are you asking us to worry about what I can only assume is also-ran, no-chance third party lines on the ballot and why can’t you write your favorite no-hoper in? It happens. https://www.npr.org/2022/07/15/1111598878/north-carolina-green-party-petition-signatures-hoh-beasley https://www.texastribune.org/2020/08/19/texas-democrats-green-party-november/
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Jun 29, 2023 18:05
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Insanite posted:It happens. Why should the Green Party not play by the same rules as its competitors? Because it’s incompetent? And see, now we’re talking about the Green Party rather than the topic from before the goalpost shift.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:08
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yronic heroism posted:Why should the Green Party not play by the same rules as its competitors? Because it’s incompetent? NPR posted:He released a recording of a phone call he claimed was between Tony Ndege, who is the co-chair of the state Green Party, with someone who tried to get him to take his name off the petition. Sounds totally legit, yeah.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:11
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It's incumbent on the party to select a nominee who will win and if he doesn't that's between the party and Jesus
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Jun 29, 2023 18:15
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Just skimming through, it looks like Biden CPAP chat is still fair game. Based on what people are saying about his nasal passages, and his age, I am thinking he's might be more in my court with post-nasal drip and whatnot. There's probably some other stuff he's trying in tandem. I was prescribed one since I have started snoring more. My sleep study showed at worse one instance of medium apnea, but that was enough. I have found the whole thing is really annoying and I wind up taking off the mask within 90 minutes of the night. It's actually enough for me--kinda. Despite having a humidifier built-in, it dries out my sinuses enough that I don't sound like I'm ripping boards and my wife doesn't smack me awake with her dead-rear end forearm in the middle of the night. I don't think that's enough to maintain compliance so I am going to assume I lose the machine. It's probably fine because we're looking at alternate procedures. There's this procedure that nukes some of the sinus nerves. Then you stop making so much god drat snot. Biden's probably dealing with that too since it hits a lot of really old people. Hell, the brochure for RhinAer shows loving old people all over it. In my case, my mom would talk about how I learned to clear my throat as a little baby and she thought it was cute. Naw, man, it was probably The Drip. I needed surgery for a deviated septum and I also did something like six years of immunotherapy. Before that, I could predict that I'd be sick on January 15th, May 22nd, and October 20th of every year, like a clock (plus, one "floating day"). Always sinus infections. Since ~2018 or so, I think I've had two viral infections and one cold overall. The incidence rate has really gone down. I actually used to think that these sinus infections were what colds were like and I was just a giant baby. Well, I am still a giant baby, but colds aren't supposed to be like that!
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Jun 29, 2023 18:16
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yronic heroism posted:NA is moving the goalposts. Stopping fascism is not necessarily interchangeable with promoting NA’s view of what democracy is, and they didn’t specify by what means someone was “kicked off” a ballot. (What, they didn’t qualify so they weren’t on there? Shocking.) If Democrats were serious about "stopping fascism" they'd call out the party's rising stars like Adam Schiff when he pressures the letter agencies to make people on social media stop making fun of him. If Democrats were serious about "stopping fascism" they'd do more to allow voters to have the same sort of influence on legislation as corporate donors & PACs do. If Democrats were serious about "stopping fascism" they'd do more to allay the everyday suffering of voters instead of asking for back-pats (and votes) for passing legislative floors, not ceilings. Crowing about third parties Not Following Rules & Deserving What They Get isn't stopping fascists; it's enabling them.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:30
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I don't think Dems are serious about stopping fascism. They're big cop bootlickers. I just think they're a bit less fascist than Republicans. It would be great to have some non-fascist options that could actually win but we need some electoral reform before that happens.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:32
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Willa Rogers posted:If Democrats were serious about "stopping fascism" they'd call out the party's rising stars like Adam Schiff when he pressures the letter agencies to make people on social media stop making fun of him. The other party tried to overthrow the government and install a fascist dictatorship. Jaxyon posted:I don't think Dems are serious about stopping fascism. They're big cop bootlickers. The Democrats consistently invoke consent decrees against problematic departments and successfully improve outcomes. Almost every cop loving hates them. The party is like 30% black. Donald Trump demands more police brutality. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 18:40
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:........ Biden CPAP chat...... they might be using it to also get Sleepy Joe  extra oxygen overnight via an adapter tube and O2 tanks instead of making him sleep in one of Lebron's hyperbaric chambers. Also, if using a CPAP ignore everything else and go directly to the Resmed AirFit P10 as the least invasive choice. Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 18:42
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Willa Rogers posted:If Democrats were serious about "stopping fascism" they'd call out the party's rising stars like Adam Schiff when he pressures the letter agencies to make people on social media stop making fun of him. Nice Dems Bad gish gallop post but doesn’t really engage with the argument. I can conclude the alternative is poo poo and still happily vote against the fascist party, which for lack of being FPTP then loses. That is what stopping fascism at the ballot box looks like.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:43
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Jaxyon posted:I don't think Dems are serious about stopping fascism. They're big cop bootlickers. Agreed, except that I think it's healthier for "democracy" to have non-fascist options that can't actually win, too, so as to eventually become non-fascist options that can actually win. Rules-lawyering third parties off the ballot based on lies & deception makes that less likely to happen, not more likely.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:43
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the_steve posted:That's how they get you though. Well, yes, that's the dilemma you face when the person you actually want to vote for is a loser with very little public support and no chance of winning a majority vote or even outperforming the white supremacist theocrats. Especially when you live in a country whose political system doesn't give proportional representation to people who lose elections.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:43
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yronic heroism posted:Nice Dems Bad gosh gallop post but doesn’t really engage with the argument. I can conclude the alternative is poo poo and still happily vote against the fascist party, which for lack of being FPTP then loses. I don't think that changing FPTP actually resolves the problem, going by the precedences we now have in states with non-party-affiliated general elections, like California, or with runoff voting such as in New York. We have to move toward more of a coalition-politics framework, imo.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:46
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The weird thing is that I feel like, when I drill down and ask the question directly, most people who rail against the Dems and insist voting for them is futile go and vote for them anyway. (Not saying anyone here specifically, just saying it’s a trend I’ve noticed.) Like, the main argument among online lefts often feels more about how angry our rhetoric should be then whether the less right wing party should control the government or not.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:49
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well at least you don't have to worry about them appointing mouthbreathing absolutely insane fascist ghouls like Betsy DeVos and Scott Pruitt to important cabinet positions let alone the courts
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Jun 29, 2023 18:53
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Willa Rogers posted:I don't think that changing FPTP actually resolves the problem, going by the precedences we now have in states with non-party-affiliated general elections, like California, or with runoff voting such as in New York. How though? What does that look like under the US constitution? Maybe the CA and NY results are just what the greatest number of people want to support. Like, obviously it would have been better if Feinstein got jungle primaried, for example, but the failure seems to have been one of persuasion.
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Jun 29, 2023 18:54
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Keyser_Soze posted:well at least you don't have to worry about them appointing mouthbreathing absolutely insane fascist ghouls like Betsy DeVos and Scott Pruitt to important cabinet positions let alone the courts
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Jun 29, 2023 18:56
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I live in Kentucky, so the "vote to stop fascism!" rings hollow when our ballot choices are Big Mitch vs Pro-Trump Democrat vs Libertarian. And then Mitch wins such a crushing victory there's not enough people in the state left to vote him out. Yes, yes, start local. I did - the BLM candidate for mayor in my city came in fourth with 9% of the vote.Mellow Seas posted:The other party tried to overthrow the government and install a fascist dictatorship. Sounds serious! Surely the Antifascist Party arrested their leaders and executed them for treason, then outlawed the fascist party and brutally suppressed them before they could try again, right? Byzantine fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 18:57
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Byzantine posted:Sounds serious! Surely the Antifascist Party arrested their leaders and executed them for treason, then outlawed the fascist party and brutally suppressed them before they could try again, right? Well, did you?
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Jun 29, 2023 19:00
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Main Paineframe posted:Well, yes, that's the dilemma you face when the person you actually want to vote for is a loser with very little public support and no chance of winning a majority vote or even outperforming the white supremacist theocrats. Especially when you live in a country whose political system doesn't give proportional representation to people who lose elections. I haven't iirc encountered anyone who isn't a moron who doesn't think we'd be better off with ranked choice voting or the like. Even chuds I've talked to or overheard would like to be able to prioritize their specific, uh, areas of interest.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:01
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Lol that it’s essential for the military but not, like, any other part of our society. There were many posts between this and what I was replying to and I didn’t quote. Referring to diversity in the officer corps.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:02
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Personally I think a party that is openly trying to tear down the federal government should not be able to participate in said government. They are obviously bad faith actors. That said it won't happen, it can't happen, and it would be a bad precedent if it did happen. However, every last one of the GOP who supported the insurrection should be tried for sedition and sent away to jail and barred from serving in government, and I think the Democrats are cowardly quislings for not targeting people like MTG and Ted Cruz who have consistently sided with armed insurrectionists, and may have in fact assisted some of them.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:09
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Willa Rogers posted:I don't think that changing FPTP actually resolves the problem, going by the precedences we now have in states with non-party-affiliated general elections, like California, or with runoff voting such as in New York. Ranked choice would be what we need, and yes coalition politics, but you're not going to get that under the current system. FPTP and winner takes all mean that every election is going to be two real candidates, a ridiculous fascist and somebody who's anywhere from "slightly" better to "way" better. Voting for 3rd parties who have no chance doesn't really move towards a system that will fix that. It feels better, it's probably morally better, but pragmatically unless you change the election system you're not really making an effective vote. We need to work on the election problems before we try and get 3rd parties or coalitions anywhere, the current system makes it near impossible for 3rd party votes to work outside of municipal elections.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:12
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Byzantine posted:Sounds serious! Surely the Antifascist Party arrested their leaders and executed them for treason, then outlawed the fascist party and brutally suppressed them before they could try again, right? well a bunch of them were sent to federal prison.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:13
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Professor Beetus posted:the Democrats are cowardly quislings for not targeting people like MTG Well, except that they stripped her committee assignments like a week after Biden was inaugurated.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:13
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Byzantine posted:Sounds serious! Surely the Antifascist Party arrested their leaders and executed them for treason, then outlawed the fascist party and brutally suppressed them before they could try again, right? Not exactly. You see, we have this concept called "rule of law". Broadly speaking, it means that is everyone is accountable to the same laws and legal processes regardless of how politically delicate the matter may be. So, the majority party can't just arrest and execute people because it has decided that they have done a Really Bad Thing. Treason in particular has a really narrow definition from what I recall and it's not clear that charging January 6 perpetrators with it would hold up in court in any way. Capital punishment also has to go through a lengthy process including numerous appeals, so even if it was on the table there's no way that it would have been carried out by this point without a serious diversion from said process. Of course, you probably knew all this and were just being facetious but it's not clear what your point would be other than "we should suspend rule of law when it seems like a good idea" and I think you should just say that if it's what you're after.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:14
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Keyser_Soze posted:they might be using it to also get Sleepy Joe That’s just 2L o2 nasal cannula, not cpap.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:16
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Eletriarnation posted:Of course, you probably knew all this and were just being facetious but it's not clear what your point would be other than "we should suspend rule of law when it seems like a good idea" and I think you should just say that if it's what you're after. And of course if it were possible to do, Trump would have done it on January 7th.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:19
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James Garfield posted:Well, except that they stripped her committee assignments like a week after Biden was inaugurated. And it's not nearly enough.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:20
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Professor Beetus posted:And it's not nearly enough. What else do you want? It takes a 2/3 majority to expel a member of congress.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:28
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When one side is cheating it doesn't do the other side any good to follow all the rules, it makes them look feckless.James Garfield posted:What else do you want? It takes a 2/3 majority to expel a member of congress. Well did they put it to vote and lose that vote?
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Jun 29, 2023 19:29
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Keyser_Soze posted:well at least you don't have to worry about them appointing mouthbreathing absolutely insane fascist ghouls like Betsy DeVos and Scott Pruitt to important cabinet positions let alone the courts How about when Democrats instead ally with insane fascist ghouls like Betsy DeVos? Does that count, or nah? Or when a barely sentient Feinstein is allowed to help decide lifetime appointments for scotus? yronic heroism posted:How though? What does that look like under the US constitution? Maybe the CA and NY results are just what the greatest number of people want to support. Like, obviously it would have been better if Feinstein got jungle primaried, for example, but the failure seems to have been one of persuasion. Ranked choice does come closest. "Failures being attributed to persuasion" ignores the might of state parties, and the leaders of the state parties, and the influential members of the state parties, as well as their influence over media & other institutions. For example: Feinstein's Democrat opponent not being endorsed bc state delegates to the state party convention only supported him by a majority, not a supermajority. For example: Pelosi making it clear that she wants the aforementioned barely sentient Feinstein to not resign let it hurt the chances of her pet candidate. For example: The various state Dem parties that have lied & cheated to rules-lawyer the Green party off state ballots. Yeah, man, just a lot of non-persuasive lefties at fault for all these institutional problems.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:31
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Harold Fjord posted:When one side is cheating it doesn't do the other side any good to follow all the rules, it makes them look feckless. Did they waste floor time on that particular symbolism? I’m guessing not.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:39
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