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BBQ Dave posted:Yep, right on the money.
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Jun 18, 2023 02:35
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Arquinsiel posted:If you still need that $36 figure and they won't match it then be prepared to walk away. Don't take a paycut for it. OP has been unemployed for 3 months, so it's not as straightforward as taking a paycut. BBQ Dave posted:Yep, right on the money. Good luck. LLSix fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Jun 18, 2023 |
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Jun 18, 2023 05:13
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Arquinsiel posted:If you still need that $36 figure and they won't match it then be prepared to walk away. Don't take a paycut for it. The OP is in America where basic social services like health care are tied to employment and they have a family.
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Jun 18, 2023 22:24
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Agency wouldn't come up on their 36/hr to 38.50 because "we are hiring for 4 other positions and want to pay everyone the same," but sent me an email (since I repeatedly asked for an offer letter) with the pay rate. Thing is, they also accidentally included the original rate of 36.41 and their bill rate of 51. They have basically no benefits and I don't think their healthcare meets the minimum requirements, so yeah that's a fat margin they are trying to squeeze out here. Luckily I have a call set up to discuss more consultant work but you would figure you'd take over 10 an hour based on someone else's labor. Oh well, see how it goes monday.
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Jun 23, 2023 22:49
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That’s not a fat margin at all in the world of contracting. I’ve seen some drat near criminal poo poo before.
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Jun 24, 2023 01:07
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Right I get it's usually 25-75% but the idea is you would also be offering a benefit, like, any at all, as part of that margin. Their healthcare doesn't even have a deductible or OOP max, it's just a piddly deduction on a visit so I imagine it's incredibly cheap on their end.
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Jun 24, 2023 01:15
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Yeah that seems extremely modest to me. I think they usually bill double whatever they're paying the person, don't they?
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Jun 24, 2023 14:18
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Corla Plankun posted:Yeah that seems extremely modest to me. I think they usually bill double whatever they're paying the person, don't they? I've heard of cases where they bill 3-4x.
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Jun 24, 2023 15:15
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Parallelwoody posted:Agency wouldn't come up on their 36/hr to 38.50 because "we are hiring for 4 other positions and want to pay everyone the same," but sent me an email (since I repeatedly asked for an offer letter) with the pay rate. Thing is, they also accidentally included the original rate of 36.41 and their bill rate of 51. They have basically no benefits and I don't think their healthcare meets the minimum requirements, so yeah that's a fat margin they are trying to squeeze out here. Luckily I have a call set up to discuss more consultant work but you would figure you'd take over 10 an hour based on someone else's labor. Oh well, see how it goes monday. That is running extremely lean and in no way a fat margin.
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Jun 24, 2023 16:23
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Fair enough, I guess it just seemed excessive to me since they don't really provide much besides payroll. Makes sense why they weren't willing to move on the price then.
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Jun 24, 2023 16:31
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Parallelwoody posted:Fair enough, I guess it just seemed excessive to me since they don't really provide much besides payroll. Makes sense why they weren't willing to move on the price then. If you’re on W2 they got taxes to pay
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Jun 24, 2023 17:25
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leper khan posted:I've heard of cases where they bill 3-4x. 2.5-3.5x the employees hourly is extremely common in engineering consulting.
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Jun 24, 2023 22:21
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 Hard to argue with this, both literally and figuratively.
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Jun 26, 2023 05:46
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Exactly like agitating for a raise except instead of abruptly getting fired in 6 months you abruptly get a clip fired into you in 6 months
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Jun 26, 2023 11:11
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Eric the Mauve posted:Exactly like agitating for a raise except instead of abruptly getting fired in 6 months you abruptly get a clip fired into you in 6 months Either way, you empower your peers to demand more.
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Jun 26, 2023 15:48
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In a case where you're potentially leaving for an external role that includes a promotion, is there much point in seeking a counter from your current employer? Doesnt seem like there'd be much they could do in the timeframe theyd need to do it. Is that something that happens? I'm guessing no. Wondering how one might approach such a situation. Also is the generalized advice still to not take a counter?
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Jun 29, 2023 22:26
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I think people are generally too scare-monger-y about counters but I'd also say they are usually not ideal. You should never ask for one if your not 100% willing to take the other job, and you should use your head as to why your current employer forced you into looking elsewhere anyway. I think for situations where "My market rate grew faster than HR would allow to raise up, so the counter is a way to blast past those barriers" can be ok, for example. If you were getting passed up for promotion before, forcing a promotion now is probably not going to be an ideal situation. So if its for a higher title and more pay I think its unlikely accepting a counter would be a good move. I certainly would never take "We'll hook you up later, just turn down the job offer now". I also think usually leaving a company for a year or two and coming back is typically better overall. BUT, you never know and you probably won't get stabbed for exploring it even if you'll almost certainly say no. As was said elsewhere, internet people don't know your situation so take everything, both ways, with a grain of salt.
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Jun 29, 2023 22:33
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I am probably going to get an offer soon(tm) and while I don’t intend to accept a counter, I’ll definitely consider it. General rule is definitely don’t, but situations are specific.
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Jun 29, 2023 23:26
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If you do take the counter, try to make them put in a golden parachute clause to show good intentions. “If you fire me within X years I’ll get a Y years salary severence”. Doesn’t cost the company anything if they’re not planning to replace you so there’s no reason to oppose it. If they are against it then either they don’t want/need you as badly as they say they do, or just need you to transfer your knowledge before getting rid of you.
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Jun 30, 2023 08:00
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I took a counter offer and it worked out well. I was already being lined up for promotion at the existing company, and this provided useful leverage for negotiation in both directions. 1.5 years later I am up for a promotion to a senior management position and pondering what I can negotiate on if I get an offer. I actually don't feel I have a lot of room to negotiate on salary (no BATNA and rapid promotion the last 2 steps) and the stock and bonus plans are fixed. It's going to be tough to get more vacation time and in any case I go up to 30 days pretty soon anyway.
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Jun 30, 2023 08:49
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LochNessMonster posted:If you do take the counter, try to make them put in a golden parachute clause to show good intentions. No one gets these below the C level.
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Jun 30, 2023 14:38
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Lockback posted:No one gets these below the C level. I am at a stupidly large fortune 500, the execs here get some of this stuff. But thats only because they run divisions that are the size of entire firms normally. Anyone below them don't even get stock, which is stupid.
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Jun 30, 2023 15:48
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PyRosflam posted:Anyone below them don't even get stock, which is The lack of one funds the other! It’s a self-sustaining system! I’ve never heard of any golden parachute provisions for any normal employees. I know someone who got severance after working somewhere for 10 years and left with far advance notice, but I feel like even that is extremely rare. If they can get away with giving you less, they absolutely will (which is a basic point of this thread, I think).
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Jun 30, 2023 16:17
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Jordan7hm posted:Just for the sake of documenting progress on a negotiation… Following up. Offer coming next week, about a 35% bump from whatever my salary ends up as after our raise cycle in August. Never say a number. Now the tricky part is gritting out my teeth and doing a counter offer despite being pretty happy with the offer. Maybe on the signing bonus side, tbd what the offer looks like in detail.
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Jun 30, 2023 19:29
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If I made an offer to a consultant and they accepted my first offer with no negotiation I would instantly fear I'd made a mistake.
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Jun 30, 2023 19:36
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Eric the Mauve posted:If I made an offer to a consultant and they accepted my first offer with no negotiation I would instantly fear I'd made a mistake. Yeah, I know I need to counter. Thank you for the reminder why though lol
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Jun 30, 2023 19:41
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Lockback posted:I think people are generally too scare-monger-y about counters but I'd also say they are usually not ideal. You should never ask for one if your not 100% willing to take the other job, and you should use your head as to why your current employer forced you into looking elsewhere anyway. I think for situations where "My market rate grew faster than HR would allow to raise up, so the counter is a way to blast past those barriers" can be ok, for example. If you were getting passed up for promotion before, forcing a promotion now is probably not going to be an ideal situation. So if its for a higher title and more pay I think its unlikely accepting a counter would be a good move. I’ve never understood the point of a counter offer, myself. HR thinks that counters are for short term retention because they think people leave bad managers, not low pay. On top of that, the things I would want in a counter would never be granted, like “fire that dumb poo poo C-Suite person.” So, I’ve never bothered and it is interesting to see a perspective where it might make sense.
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Jul 5, 2023 01:16
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I've seen my dipshit HR boss negotiate counters in good faith, but this was also while working on overall comp for the org to get closer to market value.
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Jul 5, 2023 02:08
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I've seen counter offers work out a few times, with a caveat. They only work out when it's the only way to force HR/Upper Management's hand into increasing your pay. They do not fix any managerial, or organizational issues, they will only fix compensation. Anecdotal story if anyone cares: This was probably back around 2010 or so. I was supporting a bunch of software engineers in Austin, and we had this guy we hired out of college who had been with us for about 3 years. He like everyone he worked with, he did great work, but he was a college hire with only 3 years experience so the way corporations move so slow his comp hadn't been adjusted much. He went to his boss and was like hey, I don't want to leave, but I can go make 110K (made up number) tomorrow working somewhere else. I don't want to quit, but what can we do? 2010 wasn't a great year for most companies, I don't even think we bonused that year, but the software they worked on was very profitable and it was a smaller team, so getting someone to replace him and up to speed would be an issue. His boss straight up told him to bring him an offer so he could force HR to match it. Long story short, he did. HR and corporate matched the offer, threw in some options, the guy stayed for a few more years before he left to take a chance on a startup. In that case the counteroffer worked out for everyone involved. Like I mentioned though, more money doesn't fix the underlying issues. In my personal experience the shine of more money wears off after about 6 months. I went through and acquisition and about 8 months after it closed they did a salary adjustment and comp leveling exercise. I wasn't making as much as I could have been, but the benefit package was amazing. That was getting cut. New company had some issues and I wasn't super happy at the time, but whatever. They bumped my pay 10K, and man I was over the moon. Hell yeah I'll do this job for 10K more a year, haha suckers! This is awesome. That lasted less than 6 months before I was back to "This is some bullshit and they don't pay me enough for this poo poo". When I finally left for +30% at a new job no amount of money would have kept me there. The place was, and still is broken at the organizational level.
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Jul 5, 2023 17:48
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Had a meeting last Friday that I thought was a second interview and they asked me how I liked the offer... I was like what offer? Recruiters are real dumb as no one sent it to me. I turned down the offer today. Lower base and lower bonus. I told them I didn't want to waste anyone's time with a counter.
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Jul 6, 2023 02:44
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Anyone know if government entities are able to negotiate with non-monetary benefits? I was able to at my last job for a WFH stipend but no clue if state or county jobs allow that.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:05
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Blurb3947 posted:Anyone know if government entities are able to negotiate with non-monetary benefits? I was able to at my last job for a WFH stipend but no clue if state or county jobs allow that. Unlikely.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:18
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What I've seen as the way to negotiate in government or union roles is to negotiate for higher stepping within the salary band for the role. Like instead of coming in at level one of the role, come in at level three.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:59
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Yeah, sometimes you can also negotiate leave accrual too, but that's pretty rare. A lot of hiring measures are set in law.
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Jul 6, 2023 16:29
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Ok so I have the full offer from my new place. The salary is a 70k jump from my current place (before raises we get next month), the signing bonus is about 4.5%, and there are only three weeks of vacation (I currently receive 4). The glassdoor bands I see for the position (based on ~50 postings) are -25k / +40k from what I got. Looks like the average is 10k more than what I got. There are other benefits, let's say between various financial incentives and extra days off that they largely even out - the RRSP match at the new place is better, but there's no fitness expense, etc. I'd like to send a counter offer today, and I know that I want the fourth vacation week. I also know that in consulting the expectation is that you negotiate. If you won't negotiate for yourself, how do you negotiate for your firm, etc. But I'm really struggling with what to write here, because I'm a bit shellshocked by the salary increase. Looking for advice or samples I can leverage.
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Jul 6, 2023 19:50
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"Happy to receive your offer and looking forwards to working with your team. I can sign today at a salary of X and with four weeks of vacation." Don't justify, don't explain. Just tell them your two asks.
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Jul 6, 2023 20:20
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Jordan7hm posted:Ok so I have the full offer from my new place. The salary is a 70k jump from my current place (before raises we get next month), the signing bonus is about 4.5%, and there are only three weeks of vacation (I currently receive 4). The glassdoor bands I see for the position (based on ~50 postings) are -25k / +40k from what I got. Looks like the average is 10k more than what I got. There are other benefits, let's say between various financial incentives and extra days off that they largely even out - the RRSP match at the new place is better, but there's no fitness expense, etc. Ask for 5-10k more than you're looking for. You want 10k more, so just do a "I'd be happy to accept at NUM+15k+(round up to even-sounding number)"
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Jul 6, 2023 20:38
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You have two levers they can pull, so you could push harder on the pay if they can’t offer more vacation. My previous place did zero vacation time negotiation. The offers I got earlier this year, two were “unlimited” pto, and the others were hesitant to negotiate on pto unless I could provide data I had more time at the current place than what they offered.
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Jul 6, 2023 20:55
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Well, email sent. Very short and sweet saying I'm ready to sign for an extra 15k + 5 extra days. After talking to someone internally I think I won't get the 15 as salary but may get it as an increase to the signing bonus. The vacation seems doable from some extra clause they can use in special cases. I'm ok with both those things. also sending a text to my to-be boss to let them know I’ve countered but we’re really close.
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Jul 6, 2023 23:22
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A week of PTO should only account for a 2% pay increase but it's amazing how stingy companies are with it.
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Jul 7, 2023 00:17
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