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Echophonic
Sep 16, 2005

ha;lp
Gun Saliva
Got my copies of Frugal Wizard's handbook. I really did miss out on all the marginalia doing it as an epub, holy poo poo. Definitely do that one as pdf if you're doing it digital, it's really drat nice.

I've been thinking and I wonder who the remaining pins are. I'm assuming books 3 and 4 are going to be major ones, so Kaladin and maybe Kelsier? The books have been Vin and Vasher, so I'm leaning primary characters. I'm also surprised at the lack of Stormlight pins so far, besides Hoid being in his Stormlight design with the flute.

I'm guessing Vivenna for the Warbreaker box, Dalinar for the Stormlight box, and I'd expect to see Jasnah and Shallan in there somewhere. Unless we get a Brandon pin for the final box or something?

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TGG
Aug 8, 2003

"I Dare."

Mordiceius posted:

Yeah. Elend has more pure strength, but in a 1v1, Vin would annihilate him.

Raw power is fine but if you can't use it effectively, you'll get clowned.

I cannot at any point picture Elend pulling some crazy super smart Allomancy poo poo, the dude has never struck me as the super creative type, more just brute forcing his Allomancy and working more on his diplomatic/political poo poo.

MagusofStars
Mar 31, 2012



TGG posted:

I cannot at any point picture Elend pulling some crazy super smart Allomancy poo poo, the dude has never struck me as the super creative type, more just brute forcing his Allomancy and working more on his diplomatic/political poo poo.
I don't think it's really about "creativity" per se, more that they have completely different skillsets due to their upbringing.

Vin has far more street-smarts, battle experience, and survival instincts. So when it comes to coming up with a way to use Allomancy in combat or coming up with a solution on the fly, of course she's going to be way ahead of Elend in those situations because that's right in her wheelhouse. Elend's education, thoughtfulness, patience, and general knowledge (from growing up as a noble) would likely shine in a formal research setting, but "juggling leadership of the capital", "consolidating his rule" and "desperately trying to keep world from falling to poo poo" don't really allow time for that.

MartingaleJack
Aug 26, 2004

I'll split you open and I don't even like coconuts.
Is Frugal Wizard better than Tress? I'm about halfway through and not really liking it much. The plot is basically Tress meets a bunch of pirates who are bad at their jobs and then she shows them how to do their job better for them, while story is constantly interrupted by a narrator who probably didn't even need to be in the story.

TGG
Aug 8, 2003

"I Dare."
I'd have liked to see Elend being like THE soother/rioter in the realm, I always liked them as a couple with how their dynamic worked, though I'll admit to always liking the fighter/mediator dynamic in fictional relationships. I think the brutal constantly fighting the apocalypse aspect took a bit away from the possibilities with them as an Allomantic pair.

Steris would be one hell of a Soother, that I can say for sure.

101
Oct 15, 2012


Vault Dweller

MartingaleJack posted:

Is Frugal Wizard better than Tress? I'm about halfway through and not really liking it much. The plot is basically Tress meets a bunch of pirates who are bad at their jobs and then she shows them how to do their job better for them, while story is constantly interrupted by a narrator who probably didn't even need to be in the story.

Tress is considerably better than Frugal Wizard imo. Maybe you'd think otherwise though, since I loved Tress

Avalerion
Oct 19, 2012

MartingaleJack posted:

Is Frugal Wizard better than Tress? I'm about halfway through and not really liking it much. The plot is basically Tress meets a bunch of pirates who are bad at their jobs and then she shows them how to do their job better for them, while story is constantly interrupted by a narrator who probably didn't even need to be in the story.

Both of your complains about the plot will get explained and addressed, if that helps.

pik_d
Feb 24, 2006

follow the white dove





TRP Post of the Month October 2021
The Hero of Ages chapters 14-33 (Part 2)

I was excited to see what Spook was up to until he got turned into a mini-Inquisitor like Zane, with the sword tip transferring the ability to use Pewter to him. Ruin also appears to have taken the form of Kelsier and Spook's desire to be big and important means he's probably going to gently caress things up for the crew.

I liked all the exposition we got from the epigraphs, which I am more convinced are from Sazed than ever. There's been too many similarities in the speech patterns. Also Sazed is King of the Terris people and doesn't like that either. He's gonna hate being the Hero of Ages. One thing that really made me pause was him saying that Ruin and Preservation were represented by black and white in Rashek's outfit, and Vin and Elend also each wear black and white.

One thing that I feel I really need more information about is the 16% people get affected by the mists. It seems like the mists have a quota, since it can't be related to the individual or else the numbers wouldn't work out that cleanly. I wonder if the number 16 is important, like maybe there's 16 metals and the mists cannot communicate any other way and they want someone to look for the 16th metal. They don't attack Terris people either, but they don't use Allomancy. It's an insane theory but I've got literally nothing else.

Hoid is back! Never mind, gently caress off Hoid, we don't want to talk to you! That was weird and I wonder if we will eventually talk to him, or just get his POV at the end. Slowswift is also weird, I like the little trivia that he's basically Tolkien. I am not surprised that the Obligator King didn't have a favorable opinion of the people who murdered his god and took over his god's empire. It sounds like he's been in the cache, but I bet sneaking in won't be easy. I wouldn't put it past Vin to try anyway. I am assuming some Inquisitors are going to show up in Fadrex City soon enough.

I'm loving TenSoon's plot. I'm curious to see if t he younger generation will follow him. MeLaan wanted him to stand up to the old guard and running away surely covers that. I really thought he'd have recovered the Blessing of Potency when he got the dog bones back, but I guess not. It also does seem like the First Generation is alive up there, just old as poo poo and unable to do much. Also curious to see what TenSoon's route is like, I still don't know where he even is, other than "underground".


This book continues to be very exciting, looking forward to seeing how wrong I am about everything except Sazed being the Hero.

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

If you think calling me names is gonna get a rise out me, think again. I like my life as an idiot!
:allears:

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE
Full Hero of Ages spoiler: Seeing all these reactions, was I the only one who didn't immediately figure out the identity of the Hero of Ages??

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003

Torrannor posted:

Full Hero of Ages spoiler: Seeing all these reactions, was I the only one who didn't immediately figure out the identity of the Hero of Ages??

The audiobook makes it very clear

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

If you think calling me names is gonna get a rise out me, think again. I like my life as an idiot!

socialsecurity posted:

The audiobook makes it very clear

Yeah. As an audio book listener, it was very obviously from the first line. Just leads to a different experience between listening and reading.

Grundulum
Feb 28, 2006

Torrannor posted:

Full Hero of Ages spoiler: Seeing all these reactions, was I the only one who didn't immediately figure out the identity of the Hero of Ages??

Not alone. I was very late coming to the realization you have under the spoiler tags.

Oasx
Oct 11, 2006

Freshly Squeezed
Secret Project #3 will be coming out tonight!

big mean giraffe
Dec 13, 2003

Eat Shit and Die

Lipstick Apathy

Oasx posted:

Secret Project #3 will be coming out tonight!

I think this may be the one I'm most excited about after reading all the sample chapters, though I've really enjoyed the first two so far as well.

Anshu
Jan 9, 2019


big mean giraffe posted:

I think this may be the one I'm most excited about after reading all the sample chapters, though I've really enjoyed the first two so far as well.

This is the body-sharing one with the rock-stacker and the painter, right?

Snord
Mar 5, 2002

We hugged it out, but I was still a little angry.

Anshu posted:

This is the body-sharing one with the rock-stacker and the painter, right?

Yes.

Louisgod
Sep 25, 2003

Always Watching
Bread Liar
Oh wow, I got the shipping notification for SP3 a bit ago, cool to see it ship so soon.

big mean giraffe
Dec 13, 2003

Eat Shit and Die

Lipstick Apathy
Yeah pretty excited to get two new Cosmere planets

Louisgod posted:

Oh wow, I got the shipping notification for SP3 a bit ago, cool to see it ship so soon.

Mine just shipped out too, glad they are finally 'caught up' on the hardcovers. Definitely glad I went for the set, they are gorgeous.

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain

big mean giraffe posted:

Yeah pretty excited to get two new Cosmere planets

Mine just shipped out too, glad they are finally 'caught up' on the hardcovers. Definitely glad I went for the set, they are gorgeous.

so SP3 takes place on 2 new planets? Do we know what era its set in?

pik_d
Feb 24, 2006

follow the white dove





TRP Post of the Month October 2021
The Hero of Ages chapters 34-44 (Part 3)

I'm really enjoying how much information the epigraphs are giving us, and I'm more convinced than ever that it's Sazed. And honestly, finally a book where we learn about hemalurgy and other spike related powers, with the kandra and koloss also using them. The koloss literally being humans that get turned into monsters is loving wild. Human literally told us the answer.

And Sazed just sort of intuits the shards of Adonalsium thing. Cool, but I'm guessing I won't learn that much about them in this book. It does however seem like this world does "end", but Sazed must bring it back using the power of Preservation or else there wouldn't be an Era 2. :thunk: With the volcanos going off and the earthquakes happening more often, everything else is probably just distractions by Ruin to keep Vin and Elend busy.

Is there ever a point in history when Spook hasn't been a complete idiot? I mean I get that right now he's got Ruin whispering in his ear but this guy is just a horny and angsty teenager incarnate. He refuses to give important information about both him and Quellion's crew using allomancy. This "Survivor of the Flames" thing is really dumb and Spook is dumb and he needs to gently caress off.

As ever, TenSoon is a bright spot in this book. It took a while but he escaped and has two Blessings but doesn't have any idea where Vin is, so I'm curious who he finds first. I hope MeLaan and the other younger kandra help him out. Still worried about that suicide pact thing in the original contract, it does seem like it'll come up in the end of times.

The number 16 seems REALLY important, and I have no other ideas except for the "16 metals?" thing I said last time. Either that or 16 people are needed for something.

So Vin and Elend are attending balls again, I love the audacity of them just superhero landing to make their entrance. Yomen is really smart and everyone keeps doubting him and getting completely owned. But he can burn atium and so probably Mistborn unless there's atium mistings.

Oh, and Reen is loving back, except probably not. I was thinking that maybe he's an Inquisitor or spike boy like Zane and Spook, until the Sanderlanche podcast guys mentioned that maybe Vin is a spike girl like Zane and yeah, that idea convinced me. Her earring is the hemalurgical spike. To expand on their theory: her baby sister gave her extra power with bronze which is why she can pierce copper clouds, and the mists keep away from her because they can sense Ruin's presence on her when it's in. I'm pretty sure her earring fell out when she used the mists against the Lord Ruler. I know she doesn't know about Zane's spike so it's hard to completely fault her, but she's got nearly enough info to figure out that her earring is the source of Ruin's touch in her. I do love how both her and the crew with Spook have the same mystery that needs solving.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES

Exciting Lemon
:allears:

Fezz
Aug 31, 2001

You should feel ashamed.

RC Cola posted:

so SP3 takes place on 2 new planets? Do we know what era its set in?
Pre-release chapter spoiler based on Design it's post-Stormlight Archive

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain

pik_d posted:

The Hero of Ages chapters 34-44 (Part 3)

I'm really enjoying how much information the epigraphs are giving us, and I'm more convinced than ever that it's Sazed. And honestly, finally a book where we learn about hemalurgy and other spike related powers, with the kandra and koloss also using them. The koloss literally being humans that get turned into monsters is loving wild. Human literally told us the answer.

And Sazed just sort of intuits the shards of Adonalsium thing. Cool, but I'm guessing I won't learn that much about them in this book. It does however seem like this world does "end", but Sazed must bring it back using the power of Preservation or else there wouldn't be an Era 2. :thunk: With the volcanos going off and the earthquakes happening more often, everything else is probably just distractions by Ruin to keep Vin and Elend busy.

Is there ever a point in history when Spook hasn't been a complete idiot? I mean I get that right now he's got Ruin whispering in his ear but this guy is just a horny and angsty teenager incarnate. He refuses to give important information about both him and Quellion's crew using allomancy. This "Survivor of the Flames" thing is really dumb and Spook is dumb and he needs to gently caress off.

As ever, TenSoon is a bright spot in this book. It took a while but he escaped and has two Blessings but doesn't have any idea where Vin is, so I'm curious who he finds first. I hope MeLaan and the other younger kandra help him out. Still worried about that suicide pact thing in the original contract, it does seem like it'll come up in the end of times.

The number 16 seems REALLY important, and I have no other ideas except for the "16 metals?" thing I said last time. Either that or 16 people are needed for something.

So Vin and Elend are attending balls again, I love the audacity of them just superhero landing to make their entrance. Yomen is really smart and everyone keeps doubting him and getting completely owned. But he can burn atium and so probably Mistborn unless there's atium mistings.

Oh, and Reen is loving back, except probably not. I was thinking that maybe he's an Inquisitor or spike boy like Zane and Spook, until the Sanderlanche podcast guys mentioned that maybe Vin is a spike girl like Zane and yeah, that idea convinced me. Her earring is the hemalurgical spike. To expand on their theory: her baby sister gave her extra power with bronze which is why she can pierce copper clouds, and the mists keep away from her because they can sense Ruin's presence on her when it's in. I'm pretty sure her earring fell out when she used the mists against the Lord Ruler. I know she doesn't know about Zane's spike so it's hard to completely fault her, but she's got nearly enough info to figure out that her earring is the source of Ruin's touch in her. I do love how both her and the crew with Spook have the same mystery that needs solving.


keep posting friend

pik_d
Feb 24, 2006

follow the white dove





TRP Post of the Month October 2021
For any WoT readers, Spook is Gawyn, that is all.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

pik_d posted:

For any WoT readers, Spook is Gawyn, that is all.

Wow, rude.

Where do I get preview chapters for SP3?

big mean giraffe
Dec 13, 2003

Eat Shit and Die

Lipstick Apathy

Torrannor posted:

Wow, rude.

Where do I get preview chapters for SP3?

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/first-look-at-secret-project-3/

Leng
May 13, 2006

One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind


No other road
No other way
No day but today
OK I have finished reading Secret Project #3.

It was fine but also had the most menwritingwomen moments that I ever recall seeing in a Sanderson book. The worst was the bra shopping scene which was something that I did not expect I would ever be writing in a reaction to a Sanderson book. Good on him for trying to expand his writing horizons but I really don't want to read that (or anything like that) again.

It's narrated in the same style as Tress, albeit Hoid has a much more passive role in the narrative so if you enjoyed that aspect of the prose, then you'll enjoy this too. Same with the amount of Cosmere crossover mentions. I know he was upfront that he was going to do more of that going forward and I was reserving judgment to see how it would play out in The Lost Metal and subsequent releases, and now, 3 Cosmere books later, I think I'm landing on the side of "I am not enjoying this" even as someone who's read all of the Cosmere. It's different when we have characters who are in the know about the Cosmere and you can see the machinations playing out e.g. The Lost Metal spoilers the Kelsier/Sazed epilogue was great but when we've got scenes with worldhoppers interacting with non-worldhopper POV characters and constantly dropping overt Cosmere references that make no sense to anybody other than a Cosmere-aware reader and the viewpoint characters constantly hanging a lantern on it with "worldhopper is weird" or "I have no idea what you're talking about" it gets old real quick.

There were also retreads of stuff he's already done before, the most egregious being Yumi's opening chapter being repeated almost word for word to reinforce the concept that she's been reliving the same day over and over with her memory erased the way that Rhythm of War spoilers Hoid's epilogue had the "rewind" to show Taravodium messing with his memories.

World building, plot, and set piece moments are still cool though. And the art is ABSOLUTELY GORGEOUS. If you didn't back a print edition, read this in .PDF on the biggest screen you have to fully appreciate it.

mewse
May 2, 2006

Just finished secret project 3 and thought it was incredible, best Sanderson book in years

seaborgium
Aug 1, 2002

"Nothing a shitload of bleach won't fix"




I liked this latest one. I did not like the wizard one, but this one seemed to work a lot better.

The painter city gave me a real cyberpunky vibe which I liked. Hoid being stuck as a coat rack and having a Cryptic just hanging out running a noodle shop was just fun. I liked this one better than Tress. I liked the repeat bit where Yumi realized what was going on, I think it worked really well here. For me it really drove home what was going on.

Grundulum
Feb 28, 2006

seaborgium posted:

I liked this latest one. I did not like the wizard one, but this one seemed to work a lot better.

The wizard one felt like the opening act of a longer story, except this one act was padded to 200% of its necessary length. I am far more interested in what happens after the nominal end of the book.

stramit
Dec 9, 2004
Ask me about making games instead of gains.
I thought the new one was enjoyable. I liked that it was a romance story and I thought it all came together well. I do think Sanderson needs to tone down throwing cosmere stuff down our through though. Connections and references are good but should ever come at the cost of distracting from the narrative which I found happen here a bit too often.

pik_d
Feb 24, 2006

follow the white dove





TRP Post of the Month October 2021

Torrannor posted:

Wow, rude.
OK maybe.


The Hero of Ages chapters 45-58 (Part 4)

Glad Vin figured out Reen was Ruin instantly. Definitely getting closer to the end with stuff getting figured out more quickly. Pretty wild to have an entire section of the book where Vin is captured. Yomen is definitely more dangerous than anyone expected. I like that she eventually got some useful information out of Ruin, even though TenSoon told her ages ago that Ruin and Preservation existed. I'm still frustrated that Vin hasn't made the connection between her earring and Ruin, given that he starts talking to her again after she puts it in.

Elend has really been put through some poo poo without Vin around. I feel like he was able to take over this new koloss army because Ruin wanted him to have it, whatever Inquisitor had it was told to give it up after a time so Elend wouldn't have to kill him, but also not get suspicious. Then he gives up and meets a literal dying god. I'm disappointed that it took this long for someone to figure out "just play 20 questions" with it, but glad that Elend at least got "please don't attack Fadrex City" since that's clearly what Ruin wants him to do. Still don't know what the significance of the number 16 is though. The mist spirt was pointing at the allomantic metals so I have a weird hope that the mists were making those people allomancers, but it really is just throwing poo poo at the wall at this point.

So maybe Spook earned some redemption back in this part, AFTER continuing his creeper teenage boy vibes to go along with his "Yes Keliser would say all this dumb poo poo this makes sense" stuff. At least seeing the city on fire made him pause and think. I'm shocked that he was able to put together that the metal spikes were connected to him and Quellion seeing "Kelsier". Going into the flames to divert the water was also pretty metal, and he's the Survivor of the Flames after all, maybe he's OK! I don't trust Durn at all though. Man seems shady as gently caress.

TenSoon taking Kelsier's bones was very unexpected, but his line about "When the mists leave" was telling, I'm wondering if the "end of the world" in the epigraphs will be survived only by people underground. I am excited for TenSoon and Sazed to work poo poo out together. Assuming the timeline is in order, TenSoon doesn't have time to make it to Vin. I'm guessing that TenSoon and Sazed make it to wherever the mist spirit was pointing Elend at since they're northeast of where Elend was.

I really really liked how informative all the epigraphs have been this whole book, and especially now. I feel like they're diving so deep into Ruin and Preservation and even touching on the wider Cosmere lore in a sense. The wildest part was Preservation having a corporeal body. I know it was mentioned that Preservation hid Ruin's body but I guess I didn't expect it to just be some man.

pointlessone
Aug 6, 2001

The Triad Frog is pleased with this custom title purchase.

pik_d posted:

The Hero of Ages chapters 45-58 (Part 4)

This is the point of book 3 where I ended up staying up all night to go through the Sanderlanche. Wrecked at work the next day because I got like 2 hours of sleep, still worth it.

Oasx
Oct 11, 2006

Freshly Squeezed
The art in Secret Project #3 is very good, but it’s just too anime for me to take seriously
So far I think it’s one of Sanderson’s weakest books.

pointlessone
Aug 6, 2001

The Triad Frog is pleased with this custom title purchase.
Secret project 3, or BrandoSando discovers anime

Overall, I really enjoyed this one. The setting was great and I hope he revisits the cyberpunk world in the future, it's a lot different than his normal settings. It had it's issues like waaaay too many Cosmere Proper Nouns that literally got "I'm not going to get into that" explanations which really hurts this one as a stand alone recommendation, but for fans it's not a large issue. I've yet to crack into my physical copies, but the artwork in this one is absolutely going to break that streak.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES

Exciting Lemon
Stormlight and Mistborn have always been 95% anime.

seaborgium
Aug 1, 2002

"Nothing a shitload of bleach won't fix"




M_Gargantua posted:

Stormlight and Mistborn have always been 95% anime.

I got a real cyberpunk kind of vibe from the latest one, but I'm not sure if that influenced anime or the other way around.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



i really liked this one! it's not perfect but i'm a sucker for anime romance and he executed it very well for being, you know, brandon sanderson

also the state of the cosmere in this: Scadrians (probably) have numerous space stations, Hoid's audience of Rosharans (possibly Shin or Worldhopper types) is familiar with all the modern tech with zero explanation, Design's confirmed that (somehow) spren can get out of the system without sacrificing their bond, she's been to Threnody with hoid at some point and it's still scary, some general references to Cultivation imply she's still kicking, probably a bunch of other things I missed. Most of it is very up in the air though because this has got to be at least many decades if not centuries in the future.

Also, I'm looking forward to getting more Virtuosity eventually, I appreciate him making clear that it is not just Art, or at least it doesn't have to be -- it can be things that you just get obsessively good at for the sake of being good at, the god of speedrunning. With a Shard that splintered itself on purpose and multiple magic systems in just the two small civilizations in this book, I bet we'll see a lot of diversity from them.

eke out fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jul 7, 2023

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pik_d
Feb 24, 2006

follow the white dove





TRP Post of the Month October 2021
Will I finished The Hero of Ages and the first Mistborn era with it. That's Elantris and those three down, however many more to go.

Gotta be honest I did not see Vin becoming a god, then murder-suiciding another god, allowing Sazed to become capital-G God. I really thought that Vin and Elend would have a happy ending, which in a sense maybe they did if the afterlife is nice. It was nice though that Vin got to go out on her own terms, taking down Ruin with her and saving the world.

I liked that Sazed spoke with them and Kelsier, because that means he also got to talk to Tindwyl in the afterlife. I also thought it was beautiful that all the religions Sazed remembered helped him shape the world back to what it sould have been. I also had a feeling that both Ruin and Preservation had to be dead for the balance, and that Sazed had to use both, but once I saw that there was Atium I thought Sazed was going to use it somehow.

While I did think that the mistfallen were new allomancers, I didn't see the connection between them and the atium, especially since I figured the atium had been depleated already. It being Ruin's body was a mindfuck. After Preservation had a regular human body I figured that's what Ruin was looking for, but the atium was to Ruin as the mists were to Preservation. Hilarious though that the solution was to just shovel the atium into their mouths as fast as possible.

Figure 1: Elend and the mistfallen saving the loving world


It's interesting that while Marsh did kill Elend, Elend didn't get him back and then he just wasn't mentioned again. There's not much atium for Marsh to store youth in, so I'm not sure how long he'll live if Sazed didn't smite him. Speaking of, Human might still be around? I feel like Sazed could have fixed him? Some interesting threads to leave hanging. I also read the Scadrian essay in Arcanum Unbound and it mentioned that Hemalurgy is capable of being used regardless of where in the universe the user is, that's scary.

I do have some mixed feelings about Spook becoming the de facto leader of everyone after everything happened. I don't have him quite as much, since he actually found some brain cells to figure that he was being controlled through the metal and that maybe Vin was too. Vin literally never figured that poo poo out, but Ruin had so much time to compel her to not think about it. It was nice that some people got their happy endings though. Spook and Beldre, Ham and his wife, Demoux and that random Terris woman, creeper Breeze and creeper Allrianne.

Shame about the kandra, though I guess they can be created again? I'm glad that TenSoon and Sazed got to have a meeting of the minds, I'd been waiting for that for so long. They were the MVPs of the story even before Sazed became God. I want to see if Sazed shows up as a character in the next Mistborn era. I may have said it before here, but when Kelsier destroyed hte pits of Hathsin and said it would take 300 years for the atium to come back, I instantly decided that Mistborn era 2 would happen in 300 years when the atium came back, so I'm still feeling that.


But before that, I'm gonna read Warbreaker next then The Way of Kings after that before getting back to Mistborn (and hopefully Sazed). I'm curious to see where Hoid shows up next.

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