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this kid is nuts posted:Genuine question: what was so good about late 90s American wrestling? I want someone to rationalize it for me. Whenever I've went back and watched it I end up feeling confused and scared. It can't just be nostalgia 90’s edgy attitude with looser censorship capturing the male teen/adult demographic. UFC was just starting to gain steam, and hadn’t stolen that demo yet. QUESTION: What happened that made Sami cool with going to Saudi Arabia?
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Jul 3, 2023 17:38
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Going back and watching WWE from late 90's is probably pretty similar to watching old ECW, the great stuff doesn't hold up, and there's probably a ton of stuff that just won't sit well for one reason or another
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Jul 3, 2023 17:39
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this kid is nuts posted:Genuine question: what was so good about late 90s American wrestling? I want someone to rationalize it for me. Whenever I've went back and watched it I end up feeling confused and scared. It can't just be nostalgia The cultural zeitgeist was loving moronic. The McMansion got popular, nu-metal got big, Columbine made school shootings big, people thought American Beauty was great, and there's the Attitude Era. And I say that as someone who was 14 in 1998, and enjoyed both nu-metal & American Beauty. Moronic. El Gallinero Gros posted:Going back and watching WWE from late 90's is probably pretty similar to watching old ECW, the great stuff doesn't hold up, and there's probably a ton of stuff that just won't sit well for one reason or another ECW's great stuff is honestly still pretty great. It's just that the matches are far too often interminable walk and brawls. It's more the stuff that was shocking and or merely "alright" that's aged probably, when you've seen Jun Kasai guys "merely" braining each other as hard as they can in the head with metal objects doesn't have the same shine. And you also get weird stuff like knowing that Public Enemy aren't much good, but I found it impossible not to get taken in and actually believe they were the best tag team in the US as I watched. So yeah, I think ECW has on the whole aged better than I expected, putting aside the sexism and homophobia and all that other late 90s edginess. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jul 3, 2023 |
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Jul 3, 2023 18:04
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Nu-Metal is good, The Attitude Era is bad.
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Jul 3, 2023 18:18
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The best wrestling matches of all time were Mae Young getting power bombed off the stage or Big Show surfing his dads coffin through a cemetery. Or Kane saying “suck it”, that had to be at least 6 stars.
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Jul 3, 2023 18:46
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Open Marriage Night posted:QUESTION: What happened that made Sami cool with going to Saudi Arabia? As far as I know, it's that Saudi Arabia stopped actively banning him after they restarted peace talks with Syria. At that point, Sami's getting paid with Saudi money either way so he may as well go and visit a major religious monument and show there's a chance for peace between these nations and so on.
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Jul 3, 2023 18:56
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Steve Austin PPV matches, from Mania 14 to going out for surgery: - Unforgiven: Overbooked match Austin loses by DQ in his first title defense - Over the Edge: Overbooked match that admittedly is fun - King of the Ring: First blood match against a guy in a full body suit - Fully Loaded: Wins tag belts with the Undertaker, how will they coexist - SummerSlam: Gets concussion against Undertaker and match doesn't recover - Breakdown: Simultaneously pinned for the belt by Undertaker/Kane, more an angle than anything - Judgment Day: Declares self the winner of an Undertaker/Kane title match, more an angle than anything - Survivor Series: Vince Russo's Sgt. Pepper's. Terrific angles but the wrestling's terrible - Rock Bottom: Slllllloooooow buried alive match against Undertaker - Royal Rumble: Vince wins - St. Valentine's Day Massacre: Beats up Vince, Big Show debuts, more an angle than anything - Wrestlemania 15: Least accomplished of the Mania trilogy with the Rock, but it's fine - Backlash: Heel ref Shane-O-Mac all over the match, but it's fine - Over the Edge: gently caress this show, also heel ref Shane-O-Mac all over the match again - King of the Ring: Loses CEO gig because Bossman raised the briefcase - Fully Loaded: Sllllloooooow first blood match against Undertaker - SummerSlam: Internal politics all over the main event - Unforgiven: Is special enforcer - No Mercy: Hunter wins lol So yeah, the hottest individual run in the company's history, but as far as the wrestling goes I'd only ever have cause to go back and watch...2 of those?
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Jul 3, 2023 19:22
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MassRafTer posted:Nu-Metal is good, The Attitude Era is bad. You've been listening to Murder Bryan too much
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Jul 3, 2023 19:37
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forkboy84 posted:So yeah, I think ECW has on the whole aged better than I expected, putting aside the sexism and homophobia and all that other late 90s edginess. Come to think of it, I wonder if Tony Khan brought in Sabu for the Cole/Jericho feud specifically because he remembers that commercial saying "Experience the ONE AND ONLY confrontation between Sabu and Lionheart Chris Jericho!" It seems like something he'd do.
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Jul 3, 2023 21:04
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Also, the whole entire Attitude Era lasted like 5 years. Looking at the pace of the NWO forming, Stone Cold and The Rock becoming household names, DX, ECW; it is like nothing since. Especially if you want to compare it to WWE of the 21st century, where Cena was the main protagonist for like 15 years straight. The late 90's were super exciting.
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Jul 3, 2023 21:14
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Venomous posted:so this tweet has been on my mind for the past couple of days https://twitter.com/allan_cheapshot/status/1674430760621854721 A few years ago something like this was floating around: "In Japan it's a sport, In Canada a tradition In Mexico a religion And in the US a joke."
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Jul 3, 2023 21:24
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More than a few. There was a popular gif that used that quote and it's at least 20 years old, but it's still pretty accurate. I think the US picture was of a Stinkface or something similar. Stealth Tiger posted:Also, the whole entire Attitude Era lasted like 5 years. Looking at the pace of the NWO forming, Stone Cold and The Rock becoming household names, DX, ECW; it is like nothing since. Especially if you want to compare it to WWE of the 21st century, where Cena was the main protagonist for like 15 years straight. The late 90's were super exciting. I also saw someone point out recently that the lack of camera flashes in a crowd also make live events feel less special. It's not something I had ever really thought about, but seeing footage side by side totally makes a difference because you visually knew exactly how many people were invested in a big spot - someone goes to the top rope and several thousand lights sparkle in the background.
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Jul 3, 2023 21:37
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Bret Hart and friends making GBS threads all over America was the best. They say America, Love it or leave it! well, I love leaving it. Bret rules https://streamable.com/j7a2s e: drat lol they gave him 20 minutes to turn heel/poo poo allover  Love the cuts to mad Vince Bret ruled https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL4O5WhxlWk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KyFqz6Hfkc Hirez fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Jul 3, 2023 |
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Jul 3, 2023 22:39
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forkboy84 posted:You've been listening to Murder Bryan too much I have been listening to Fear Factory's unfairly maligned classic Digimortal.
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Jul 4, 2023 03:50
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In kayfabe, what are cornermen allowed to do? Yelling encouragement and popping for big spots is the usual stuff, but are they "allowed" to yell if their wrestler is going to get blindsided by their opponent (sort of like another pair of eyes) or suggest a move to do? (I remember Gedo yelling at Jay White what move to do next on Kota Ibushi during WK 2021) Or are they just mostly there to hype their corner up (and the occasional cheating spot for heels)?
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Jul 4, 2023 03:56
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From what we know corner men have no specific duties and responsibilities in kayfaybe so long as they do not physically interfere in the match although they are required to have a managers license. In some cases cornermen are allowed to give up for their side although when you can do this isn't known.
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Jul 4, 2023 04:09
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Davros1 posted:A few years ago something like this was floating around: I dissected that statement and came to the realization that the US has the right of it. Wrestling is silly. Silly at its core.
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Jul 4, 2023 04:31
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Davros1 posted:A few years ago something like this was floating around: You read it wrong. 
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Jul 4, 2023 04:46
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MassRafTer posted:You read it wrong. Who’s got that image macro of Tony Khan asking up to a heavenly Giant Baba “am I doing a good job, boss?”
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Jul 4, 2023 04:52
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Lily Catts posted:In kayfabe, what are cornermen allowed to do? Yelling encouragement and popping for big spots is the usual stuff, but are they "allowed" to yell if their wrestler is going to get blindsided by their opponent (sort of like another pair of eyes) or suggest a move to do? (I remember Gedo yelling at Jay White what move to do next on Kota Ibushi during WK 2021) Or are they just mostly there to hype their corner up (and the occasional cheating spot for heels)? wrestling managers are managers and what that means is nebulous but can include the duties of: personal valet business manager tactical manager coach physiotherapist parent or guardian power of attorney cheerleader
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Jul 4, 2023 07:28
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Defenestrategy posted:From what we know corner men have no specific duties and responsibilities in kayfaybe so long as they do not physically interfere in the match although they are required to have a managers license. In some cases cornermen are allowed to give up for their side although when you can do this isn't known. IIRC, Arnold Skaaland threw in the towel when Backlund was in the Camel Clutch back in the day, so I suppose they can submit on behalf of their clients if they're put in a hold.
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Jul 4, 2023 07:38
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I dunno if it counts but Brets parents threw in the towel for Bret against Backlund because Owen Hart convinced them to.
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Jul 4, 2023 07:58
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Someone above mentioned managers' licences, and while that was mostly kayfabe'd, there's a bit of truth to it. In the old days wrestling was still monitored by athletic commissions, so referees had to get shoot licenses and there was a limit on who could be at ringside. The "manager" was usually a high-rolling investor similar to boxing promoters at that time, so he had free reign to be at ringside, and got heat for influencing the match. If you want to trace the history of the wrestling manager as we know it, start with Bobby Davis and Grand Wizard. They were a heavy influence on the Cornette/Heenan/Heyman types that became the norm by the 80s, and still in vogue today. Benne fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Jul 4, 2023 |
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Jul 4, 2023 08:41
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edogawa rando posted:IIRC, Arnold Skaaland threw in the towel when Backlund was in the Camel Clutch back in the day, so I suppose they can submit on behalf of their clients if they're put in a hold. Taz did it more recently (granted, a few years ago now) in the match where Brian Cage was facing Mox for the title when Mox had Cage in the cross armbreaker. It was a solid ending that made sense as well because Cage would never give up and Taz knew this but also knew his guy would get his arm broken if he didn't stop it.
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Jul 4, 2023 09:54
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Women's wrestling fans: What women wrestlers are known as high flyers? I'm somebody only familiar with AEW for the most part and while a few women use the top rope most of them seem at best marginally aware that the top rope exists. Since both flyers and women skew on the smaller side I would have thought there would be more overlap.
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Jul 4, 2023 12:23
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ChrisBTY posted:Women's wrestling fans: What women wrestlers are known as high flyers? I'm somebody only familiar with AEW for the most part and while a few women use the top rope most of them seem at best marginally aware that the top rope exists. Since both flyers and women skew on the smaller side I would have thought there would be more overlap. Saya Kamitani is an incredibly reckless high-flyer. Good and bad. If you go back to the '90s you have Chaparita ASARI who was an amazing flyer. A lot of women do high flying spots but aren't exactly high flying spot monkeys in the tradition of a Jack Evans. Someone like Manami Toyota could fly, but she's as happy smashing you in the face with her own head. It's funny because I thought I'd be able to name some more but someone like AZM isn't exactly a high flyer as she's a high speed wrestler. As in everything comes at a high pace, there's stuff using ropes and even the top rope but that's not exactly the same thing. Someone like Mei Suruga also fits in that, and Kaho Kobayashi and Mio Momono. It's sort of adjacent but different?
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Jul 4, 2023 12:50
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Hoss Corncave posted:Taz did it more recently (granted, a few years ago now) in the match where Brian Cage was facing Mox for the title when Mox had Cage in the cross armbreaker. It was a solid ending that made sense as well because Cage would never give up and Taz knew this but also knew his guy would get his arm broken if he didn't stop it. And Cage was just coming back off a bicep injury (which I think was a legit injury?), so it also made sense not just to fight another day but avoid re-injury to that arm.
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Jul 4, 2023 13:31
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While most managers were kayfabe, Paul Ellering did handle all of The Road Warriors travel and hotel bookings, in addition to helping them plan their matches.
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Jul 4, 2023 13:56
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ChrisBTY posted:Women's wrestling fans: What women wrestlers are known as high flyers? I'm somebody only familiar with AEW for the most part and while a few women use the top rope most of them seem at best marginally aware that the top rope exists. Since both flyers and women skew on the smaller side I would have thought there would be more overlap. Watch Io Shirai's Stardom stuff where she's just murdering people with her dives
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Jul 4, 2023 17:42
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Not sure if this is the right thread, but is anyone in Louisiana and can fill me in on local indies around Nola, Baton Rouge, Lake Charles or Lafayette? I just moved back, and it looks like I'll be in BR for a bit, but intend on moving back to New Orleans before too long. I've been in Phoenix (the worst) for about a decade, and before the pandemic I'd see local lucha shows, and one other company that always brought in larger names like Eddie Kingston and Ortiz, Cabana, etc. Hell I don't even care if it's in Biloxi or something on the Mississippi coast, just not north of Lafayette. North of the boot is an uncomfortable drive for me physically. I have a serious autoimmune disorder, and it keeps me from tiny indoor shows, but in a larger place or outdoors I feel safer in a mask. TLDR; any good indies along I-10 in Louisiana or Mississippi, with at least bare minimum safety measures for masked audience members.
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Jul 4, 2023 19:35
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Kim Justice posted:You may come across a seemingly absolute dream match to end all dream matches featuring Misawa (as Tiger Mask) taking on Bret Hart. Do not watch it, it's poo poo. Bret was jetlagged, Misawa was injured, and they just didn't get on the same page at all unfortunately. Bret was rather sniffy about Misawa in his book to say the least based on this one meeting. Wasn’t there also a match involving Bret and Satoru Sayama that’s a rather disappointing too? What is it with Bret and Tiger Masks? So question for the thread: Are there any other notable examples of matches where you’d think it would be amazing based in who’s involved, only for it to be terrible for some reason?
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Jul 4, 2023 21:43
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Updated for Maximum Discourse
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Jul 4, 2023 21:44
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edogawa rando posted:Wasn’t there also a match involving Bret and Satoru Sayama that’s a rather disappointing too? What is it with Bret and Tiger Masks? Eddie Guerrero vs Chris Benoit at the first One Night Stand show has to count surely? Very ploddy, very boring. Eddie looked absolutely exhausted, and in retrospect it's easy to understand why. Just sad all around really.
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Jul 5, 2023 07:31
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Okada vs Taiji Ishimori during the 2020 New Japan cup did not work at all. This was just after the covid break and Okada was really struggling without crowds, in addition to trying to get the World Famous Money Clip over
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Jul 5, 2023 08:01
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SG Bamboo posted:Okada vs Taiji Ishimori during the 2020 New Japan cup did not work at all. This was just after the covid break and Okada was really struggling without crowds, in addition to trying to get the World Famous Money Clip over he also insisted on working face despite that next to Taiji he looked like Andre the loving Giant bullying a child
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Jul 5, 2023 08:23
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I've always wondered how much of commentary saying "I had a chance to talk to (wrestler) earlier today, and he said..." is kayfabe. I know the commentators don't actually interview every single wrestler on the card because it comes up in nearly every match, but do they come up with that material themselves or do the wrestlers/promoters feed them the lines?
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Jul 5, 2023 08:30
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Bq_dkPkQUU (it's probably kayfabe)
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Jul 5, 2023 08:35
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Bonk posted:I've always wondered how much of commentary saying "I had a chance to talk to (wrestler) earlier today, and he said..." is kayfabe. I know the commentators don't actually interview every single wrestler on the card because it comes up in nearly every match, but do they come up with that material themselves or do the wrestlers/promoters feed them the lines? I commentate for a company here in the UK, and make a point to chat to everyone wrestling that night just to see if the wrestlers want me to get anything over for them, talk moves, etc. I then embellish that on com's While a lot of what is said about speaking to wrestlers by commentators is made up on the fly, there maybe a hint of truth to it too.
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Jul 5, 2023 10:02
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edogawa rando posted:Wasn’t there also a match involving Bret and Satoru Sayama that’s a rather disappointing too? What is it with Bret and Tiger Masks? Yeah, IIRC it's not as bad as the Misawa match but still a very so-so bout. I'd say Rick Rude vs Masahiro Chono at Halloween Havoc '92, especially because they had a really excellent match in the '92 G1 Climax final. They run it back a couple months later but Chono's got a nasty stinger thanks to Steve Austin and it's on the show that's the zenith of overbooked Bill Watts WCW poo poo. One of the dullest loving matches I have ever seen. EDIT: There's also the Tenryu vs. Misawa bout from NOAH in 2005. Perhaps not terrible, but...yeah, a simple case of Misawa being too broken down by that point and Tenryu being a bit too old for it to really be the all-out dream match it could have been, and it ends up being quite sloppy. To be fair I don't think NOAH pushed the bout like that, it's not like it main evented a card or anything. Kim Justice fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Jul 5, 2023 |
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Jul 5, 2023 13:12
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AJ Styles and Kevin Steen/Owens never had great in ring chemistry
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Jul 5, 2023 13:37
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