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Jeff Wiiver posted:Still relatively new to the WH40K lore. I'm reading through the Horus Heresy books (reading Book 8 right now). Any suggestions for books that are good primers on factions I haven't really come across yet? Don't know much about Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Aeldari, Drukhari and Genestealer Cults. Curious about Votann too but I'm guessing they're new enough that there aren't any novels to read yet. Valedor's one of my favorite eldar books, the one i'd recommend the most, and is also tyranids.
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Jul 3, 2023 12:23
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You didn’t ask about Orks, but I feel Brutal Kunnin’ is worth a recommendation for Xenos books too.
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Jul 3, 2023 13:12
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Brutal Kunnin' also has fun AdMech stuff, and they're a human faction that can always use more attention.
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Jul 3, 2023 13:55
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One of the things I really appreciate about the Vaults of Terra series is that Wraight gets how terrible it would be to exist in the imperium and how awful the inquisition is, even if they are ostensibly the "heroes" of the books. The confrontation between Lementrov and Spinoza in the first book is so good. He tells her, as Crowl did but himself didn't fully understand, that everyone is terrified of their supposed protectors. So much so that they know if they were to bring evidence of a danger to the authorities they should expect to have the evidence burned alongside themselves and their family. The torture that Crowl employs obviously doesn't actually provide accurate information about the nature of the threat. Lementrov is right, clearly, and yet Spinoza can never come around to understanding why he would do what he's done because of how awful the imperium truly is. It is moribund and monstrous and even the inquisition, which has the greatest latitude to fight this, are one of the biggest drivers of its continued decline through their terror. It's such a good repudiation of those freaks that are unironically into the imperium irl. It's just a really solid look at how fascism destroys everything it claims to protect. I think sometimes some BL authors get too comfortable with the imperium and it's good to see it described in an unvarnished look on occasion. It's not to say there shouldn't be heroes, but the imperium itself should always be a villain.
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Jul 3, 2023 14:02
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The most interesting BL stories are the ones where someone tries to do something genuinely heroic and finds themselves battling both the forces of Chaos and the Imperium they’re trying to protect. Heroism exists, but it is not the natural state of the Imperium.
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Jul 3, 2023 14:08
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Thanks for the suggestions! Adding them to my list. Already read Brutal Kunnin' (i'm an orks player!) and I really enjoyed it.
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Jul 3, 2023 14:10
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:The most interesting BL stories are the ones where someone tries to do something genuinely heroic and finds themselves battling both the forces of Chaos and the Imperium they’re trying to protect. Heroism exists, but it is not the natural state of the Imperium. Gaunt's Ghosts has a really interesting character in the latest arc, Mabbon Etogaur, who is a former Guardsman who went over to Chaos, then went back to the Imperium. He's presented as a pacifist who's questioning why they're fighting in the first place and whats it all for and everyone treats him like a complete freak.
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Jul 3, 2023 15:10
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a lovely king posted:Gaunt's Ghosts has a really interesting character in the latest arc, Mabbon Etogaur, who is a former Guardsman who went over to Chaos, then went back to the Imperium. He's presented as a pacifist who's questioning why they're fighting in the first place and whats it all for and everyone treats him like a complete freak. Although Warmaster or Anarch reveals there definitely was a lot more to him than that.
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Jul 3, 2023 15:12
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Finished Brothers of the Snake. Honestly, I'm extremely disappointed; I think the training chapters were the only ones I kinda sorta enjoyed, the rest was dull bolter porn that I had to skim through lest I quit. But even the Ithaka chapters still failed to give any real characterisation to - well, pretty much anyone. I couldn't tell you a single distinctive thing about Priad other than "doesn't get jokes". Unless you count "never makes a single mistake, ever". And no, "they're Space Marines, they're supposed to be dull" is not a valid defence. I've read short stories that managed to give SMs way more personality in much less text, even while staying true to the 'brainwashed child soldiers' constraint. I'm guessing the praise it receives is compared to the average 2007 Space Marine novels, which are even worse? Because I don't think it holds a candle to Abnett's Inquisition or GG stuff. NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Jul 3, 2023 |
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Jul 3, 2023 15:52
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It was early Abnett and he was still figuring stuff out at the time
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Jul 3, 2023 16:05
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I don't know why I didn't expect Infinite and Divine to be so funny but my god is it. Just finished rhe trial and Orikan's constsnt going "oh poo poo shouldn't have said that"
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Jul 3, 2023 16:09
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Improbable Lobster posted:It was early Abnett and he was still figuring stuff out at the time I thought so too at first, but it isn't that early. Brothers of the Snake came out after the Ravenor trilogy, and after ten of the Ghosts novels.
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Jul 3, 2023 16:22
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NihilCredo posted:I thought so too at first, but it isn't that early. Brothers of the Snake came out after the Ravenor trilogy, and after ten of the Ghosts novels. It's not even Abnett's first attempt at writing Marines as protagonists/POV characters, it was published after Horus Rising.
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Jul 3, 2023 16:53
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I love Brothers of the Snake, simple as. Priad to me is the perfect stoic, and muted, but feverishly devoted astartes.
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Jul 3, 2023 17:05
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bunnyofdoom posted:I don't know why I didn't expect Infinite and Divine to be so funny but my god is it. Just finished rhe trial and Orikan's constsnt going "oh poo poo shouldn't have said that" It's in my top 3, so good. NihilCredo posted:I thought so too at first, but it isn't that early. Brothers of the Snake came out after the Ravenor trilogy, and after ten of the Ghosts novels. Iirc he actually said so himself; that he didn't really "get" SM at the time. I didn't think it was all that great either honestly.
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Jul 3, 2023 17:37
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I reread it recently for the first time since my first read back when it was new, and I also thought it was pretty weak. The first story is great, but the rest of it is so-so and its REALLY funny how obviously Abnett didn't understand space marines at all at the time and the Iron Snakes behave and have rituals and training and stuff like you'd except in a normal human special forces outfit or I guess the 40k equivalent.
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Jul 3, 2023 17:46
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Cooked Auto posted:Although Warmaster or Anarch reveals there definitely was a lot more to him than that. Absolutely, it's a reveal that only makes the character more interesting and engaging imo
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Jul 3, 2023 18:31
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hopterque posted:I reread it recently for the first time since my first read back when it was new, and I also thought it was pretty weak. The first story is great, but the rest of it is so-so and its REALLY funny how obviously Abnett didn't understand space marines at all at the time and the Iron Snakes behave and have rituals and training and stuff like you'd except in a normal human special forces outfit or I guess the 40k equivalent. Huh, what do you mean by "rituals and training and stuff"? The water rituals and the various drills they do in the book didn't seem out of place to me, compared to some of the weird poo poo other chapters do (including some UM successors). If anything the Iron Snakes seem extremely chill, e.g. they actively try to keep aspirants alive, but that fits with them living on a relatively peaceful planet in a relatively quiet group of stars. A bit like the White Consuls I guess.
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Jul 3, 2023 19:02
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Gah what is that chapter that makes you ritualistically watch a PowerPoint on their entire history or whatever Anyway the Sharks, Silver Skulls and very notably Exorcists off the top of my head do some weird poo poo as well. sharknado slashfic fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Jul 3, 2023 |
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Jul 3, 2023 19:31
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Part of Priad's deal is that he is absolutely going to be chapter master some day and he is the only guy who doesn't know this.
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Jul 3, 2023 20:39
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Jeff Wiiver posted:Still relatively new to the WH40K lore. I'm reading through the Horus Heresy books (reading Book 8 right now). Any suggestions for books that are good primers on factions I haven't really come across yet? Don't know much about Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Aeldari, Drukhari and Genestealer Cults. Curious about Votann too but I'm guessing they're new enough that there aren't any novels to read yet. If you haven't done Eisenhorne it's probably where I'd start as you get introduced to most of the imperial structures and their various understandings or lack there of of chaos. I don't know that I love the Heresy as an introductory point since I feel like it would lose some of its mythology and awe given a new readers lack of background.
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Jul 3, 2023 21:21
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Waroduce posted:If you haven't done Eisenhorne it's probably where I'd start as you get introduced to most of the imperial structures and their various understandings or lack there of of chaos. I’ll second that HH is best held as a secondary read. Build the mystery first before you unravel it by meeting the myths.
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Jul 4, 2023 02:14
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And realize that they're all the largest dumbest worst sons in about 44,000 years of civilization
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Jul 4, 2023 02:21
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About halfway through the new Dawn of Fire book. It's definitely the best in the series besides the 1/4th of the first book that followed the Terran administratum scribe that I will always stan. Collins has improved over his initial novels (which weren't bad). It's got me engaged and we'll see if he can stick the landing. Excited to start King of The Spoils once I'm done with this one.
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Jul 4, 2023 05:27
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Didn't know that James Swallow writes a lot of real-world thrillers.
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Jul 4, 2023 06:38
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Can't exactly live on a Black Library paycheck alone. Plenty of authors who do other things on the side, Abnett is really just the more proliferous one of the lot.
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Jul 4, 2023 14:19
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Sephyr posted:Fabius Bile did make a female Astartes equivalent just for kicks, in his trilogy. Two flavors thereof, even; you got Igori, who's Bile's creation, who's breed is by design capable of taking down Astartes via close-knit pack tactics with her fellows, and you got the singular Savona, who's basically her own creation (although Slaanesh helped), and everything you'd expect a female Chaos Space Marine to be. The way she's introduced in the third book of the trilogy is priceless:  Incidentally, Igori's crew has got me now kit-bashing Chaos cultist minis, two/three to a base, to serve as "counts-as" Legionaries for the tabletop. DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:The most interesting BL stories are the ones where someone tries to do something genuinely heroic and finds themselves battling both the forces of Chaos and the Imperium they’re trying to protect. Heroism exists, but it is not the natural state of the Imperium. So I'm about halfway through Fehervari's Fire Caste now, and absolutely loving this observation, because that's exactly what's happening. Compounding the tragedy, of course, is that it isn't the obviously-evil Chaos they're fighting, but the Tau. The sensible thing to do would be to arrange a truce and get the absolute gently caress off the horrible planet they're on, and then probably have the 19th Arkan Confederates throw in with the Greater Good because they are objectively criminals to the Imperium now, but sensible isn't on the menu here.
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Jul 4, 2023 20:00
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Just wait til you see more of the Tau
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Jul 4, 2023 20:54
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I've also recently gone all in on Fehervari's works. Have read Requiem Infernal, The Reverie, Cult of the Spiral Dawn and am starting to read Fire Cast now (after reading the Tau short stories that connect to it). Requiem is still probably my favorite but I've liked them all to some degree. The various short stories have also been entertaining. It was funny to realize almost halfway through Cult of the Spiral Dawn how much it's a model showcase for the genestealer cult models that got released a few years back.
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Jul 4, 2023 20:58
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The most interesting aspect of the Chaos/Imperium relationship is that Chaos really is satanically evil, reveling in torture and slaughter for no reason other than cruelty, and yet lots of Imperial citizens fall for it. Good authors explore how greed and desperation can both lead a citizen to turn to Chaos for power (and almost always regret it). How bad must the Imperium be that Chaos appears, even briefly, to be tempting? Bad authors just make Chaos fun.
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Jul 4, 2023 21:18
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How is life different for a 10th generation bilge pump servicer on a chaos ship v. An imperial one?
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Jul 4, 2023 21:33
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:The most interesting aspect of the Chaos/Imperium relationship is that Chaos really is satanically evil, reveling in torture and slaughter for no reason other than cruelty, and yet lots of Imperial citizens fall for it. Good authors explore how greed and desperation can both lead a citizen to turn to Chaos for power (and almost always regret it). How bad must the Imperium be that Chaos appears, even briefly, to be tempting? Imperials are raised their whole lives on a diet of holy suffering and told that their labor is owed to the Emperor for his eternal sacrifice, and to be grateful they even get the chance to fail in repaying him. Then Chaos grabs every neuron in their brain, sets them to 100% endorphin production, and tells them that the moment they bring the knife down on the guy who whips them is going to be the greatest they've ever felt.
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Jul 4, 2023 21:34
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One of the Gobbo novellas has a PoV character like that, he swears he's going to raise up the ranks because he's so much better, if only the chaos gods would notice him. Turns out really well for him lol
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Jul 4, 2023 21:34
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wiegieman posted:Imperials are raised their whole lives on a diet of holy suffering and told that their labor is owed to the Emperor for his eternal sacrifice, and to be grateful they even get the chance to fail in repaying him. Then Chaos grabs every neuron in their brain, sets them to 100% endorphin production, and tells them that the moment they bring the knife down on the guy who whips them is going to be the greatest they've ever felt. Oh yeah, and it probably is, and then they don’t feel as bad bringing the knife down on some guy who didn’t help the whipping but didn’t stop it, and pretty soon it’s some random innocent, but the cultist doesn’t even feel anything except when the knife is biting anymore. That’s the progression - Chaos spirals down until death is either a welcome release or richly overdue justice.
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Jul 4, 2023 21:46
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notaspy posted:How is life different for a 10th generation bilge pump servicer on a chaos ship v. An imperial one? I think on the Imperium ones they make some attempt to feed you, on chaos ones you eat rats and each other while fending off attacks by tribes of beast men.
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Jul 4, 2023 21:49
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Heresy is good for showing the difference between good and bad chaos writing because of how many first introductions to chaos there is. ADB is really good at showing how it's a primal (and primordial) force that acts in complete confidence. It's utterly terrifying because it's blindingly obvious that it's aware of its own supremacy, and those who fall to chaos gains a part of that confidence. It's what makes The First Heretic so heartbreaking for me, because Argel Tal reflects on his own humanity and what will be lost, but he doesn't hesitate. He has seen the truth of the universe and it hasn't made him go "wee, time to be evil!!", it's made him believe.
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Jul 4, 2023 21:50
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sharknado slashfic posted:I think on the Imperium ones they make some attempt to feed you, on chaos ones you eat rats and each other while fending off attacks by tribes of beast men. Chaos ships are literally suffused with daemonic presence -- there's a ship spirit that binds the crew together and gives them cohesion they shouldn't have, aside from them all living in an atmosphere of crazy fanaticism that's really quite similar to the imperials. Remember, when you do a chaos ritual, it works.
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Jul 4, 2023 21:52
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I think my favourite type of people falling-to-Chaos portrayal is where it’s an inevitability. Almost cosmic horror. Someone comes into something inexplicable, often through no fault of their own, and it changes them in such a way that their fall to Chaos is unavoidable.
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Jul 4, 2023 22:02
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notaspy posted:How is life different for a 10th generation bilge pump servicer on a chaos ship v. An imperial one? - Chaos Ships are literally haunted at best. So as well as the normal rodents of unusual size and bilge mutants, you also have demons, ghosts, and the ship itself trying to murder you. - Chaos Marines can and will hunt you for sport or for use in horrible rituals. That tends to be frowned upon in Imperial circles. - WAY higher chance of mutation, though this may be seen as blessings from the Gods rather than something to be avoided - Chaos ships don't have guaranteed lines of supply, leading to all sorts of nasty things, starting with cannibalism (the more direct kind rather than Corpse Starch) and going downhill from there.
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Jul 4, 2023 23:11
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At least you get to jerk off whenever you want and sometimes you get let loose to pillage and burn some.
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Jul 4, 2023 23:26
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