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Somehow I think the court will be less sympathetic to this challenge to legacy admissions. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/03/...007edad90672d1b
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Jul 4, 2023 00:52
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OddObserver posted:re: Olympiad comparison: USAMO (the math one) participation --- not doing well --- is something like 200-300 people among roughly 11th/12th graders. Yep. The papers in the study I link show that getting a gold medal at IMO is the best known predictor of being a Fields medalist, better than other things like rank of PhD institution, publication record, etc. The point being that the higher levels of the AMC series (USAMO and up) are much more arguably indicia of distinguishing “talent” compared to the SAT, where the signal is useful (at some institutions, for some majors) but much less differentiating.
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Jul 4, 2023 00:58
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Charlz Guybon posted:Somehow I think the court will be less sympathetic to this challenge to legacy admissions. Denied. Also legacy status is a protected class since they are born with it and you must not discriminate against them.
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Jul 4, 2023 01:02
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Mister Fister posted:1) You don't go into serious debt doing trades. Trade school is so cheap that anyone can afford it without taking a loan. Edit: And trade school is like 1-2 years of your time. The financial cost and opportunity cost is massively less than college so the downside risk is almost nothing, in comparison. Germany provides free education to everyone and has strong labor protections and 50% worker control of corporate boards. We have none of that. Trade school is cheap now because there's a lack of students and the pay is high now because there's a shortage of tradesmen. There's no reason to assume these costs and pay scales would be unchanged if there were high demand for trade school and a glut of tradesmen. And we know it wouldn't because that's what happened to four year degrees. It used to be true that four year degrees were cheap and rewarded you with a well-paying job. Then everyone started doing it and that changed. Just telling 18 year olds to chase whatever job has a shortage right now is not a solution to the problem of a system that funnels all the wealth to the rich and leaves everyone else fighting over the scraps. If millions of people enter a career because of a shortage...soon there won't be a shortage anymore. Pretty basic economics.
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Jul 4, 2023 01:16
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Mister Fister posted:Do you mind telling me what unskilled jobs are paying $60 an hour? Want to pass it along to the kid i'm mentoring just in case. sure. insulation on public works projects in the northeast
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Jul 4, 2023 01:31
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VitalSigns posted:Germany provides free education to everyone and has strong labor protections and 50% worker control of corporate boards. We have none of that. I have a hard time seeing trade schools installing DEI bureaucracies, waterparks, football programs and luxury apartments in their schools like colleges do... only because they attract a more working class clientele vs. the middle class/upper middle class demographics of college who demand comfort and an 'experience'. pencilhands posted:sure. insulation on public works projects in the northeast Thanks! God drat, how the hell does installing insulation pay $60 an hour...
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Jul 4, 2023 01:37
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Also, job markets can shift pretty quickly. I decided my sophomore year of high school to become a history/social studies teacher. I remember my senior year being told by my counselor that I was going to graduate from college and the jobs would be mine to choose from. I worked my butt off and graduated a year early only to find that every job opening had 100+ people applying for it. It took me 3 years to find a full time teaching job (with an alternative Ed high school where I taught every subject). It took me another 16 years to find a social studies only job like my degree is set up for. At the same time that I was about to get hired at this last job, a guy I went to high school with took online classes and got his certification. He went from delivering Coca Cola to store to getting his certification to getting a full time teaching job in that subject matter all within a year. Job markets change and the trade world is not safe from those changes. The best thing you can tell students is to choose a job path that they will enjoy. Building a workforce that enjoy what they do is something that we need to figure out in this country.
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Jul 4, 2023 01:40
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Mister Fister posted:I have a hard time seeing trade schools installing DEI bureaucracies, waterparks, football programs and luxury apartments in their schools like colleges do... only because they attract a more working class clientele vs. the middle class/upper middle class demographics of college who demand comfort and an 'experience'. They wouldn't do it the same way as universities did, but lol if you think a for-profit company isn't going to maximize profits when given the opportunity. The costs would go up, that's economics, and the job market would shift too. It's interesting that you picked Germany as a good example of a well-designed education system, because you know what they did, they took the profit out of it
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Jul 4, 2023 01:45
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VitalSigns posted:It's a for-profit industry, it's going to gouge people as much as it can if demand goes up and people are willing to pay whatever it costs to get that ticket to a comfortable income. It's 1-2 years. Universities force you to take way too many classes. If you do a 4 year degree in computer science, you have to take so many unrelated classes, it's insane. And the biggest reason why college is so expensive is because of guaranteed student loans which floods the market with money which incentivizes universities to market themselves more on having a good time in order to attract students rather than actual education. Take away those loans and universities would have to MASSIVELY cut their budgets. Students are basically providing jobs to useless administrators and stimulating the local economy with building projects. As long as there's no barrier to entry to create a trade school and you don't have dumbass policies like guaranteeing loans to such schools, there shouldn't be an issue with cost. Besides that, there are public vocational high schools that basically do the same thing. Now that i remember, there was a public vocational technical high school near me that basically taught most of the trades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minuteman_Career_and_Technical_High_School And this is an upper middle class town. Which of course had a fraction of the enrollment of my high school nearby, because, again, the stigma of vocational training
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Jul 4, 2023 02:04
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I don't know what to tell you, if demand for trade schools goes up, especially by vast amounts if everyone whose parents can't buy them a full ride stops going to four universities like you want, then trade schools are going to raise their prices to capture that extra marginal profit, just like anything else in the market. Why wouldn't they. And if they go up enough because the children of the middle class are bidding up tuition prices, why wouldn't poorer families take out loans to afford it, loans which would need to be guaranteed if trade schools are supposed to be the universal ticket out of poverty. It's all gonna be the same issues. Yeah you'll get more schools opening to take advantage of higher prices (this happened with four year degrees too, a bunch of degree mills opening up as the price points increased), but that isn't going to fix the issue because that's not how capitalism operates. University of Phoenix and its copycats didn't send university tuition back down to what it was in the 90s. And do you really think classes that aren't computer science are a waste of time? The problem isn't that 4-year universities give a well-rounded education to people who want it. The problem is that university is run as a for-profit industry that seeks to extract maximum money out of students. It's a good thing if people who want an education can get it, the bad thing is policies that put a lifetime of debt on everyone who doesn't come from money. Knowledge shouldn't only be for the children of the very rich.
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Jul 4, 2023 02:38
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Charlz Guybon posted:Somehow I think the court will be less sympathetic to this challenge to legacy admissions. In a 6-3 decision, the Supreme Court decides that any racial bias in legacy admissions is merely the fruits of prior racism and not necessarily current racism and so therefore it is not covered by the Civil Rights Act.
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Jul 4, 2023 04:34
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VitalSigns posted:And do you really think classes that aren't computer science are a waste of time? The problem isn't that 4-year universities give a well-rounded education to people who want it. The problem is that university is run as a for-profit industry that seeks to extract maximum money out of students. It's a good thing if people who want an education can get it, the bad thing is policies that put a lifetime of debt on everyone who doesn't come from money. Knowledge shouldn't only be for the children of the very rich. I'l go ahead and straight up say it: giving a well rounded education to people who DON'T want it, they just want a job certificate, at the price they are asking, might not be THE problem but it is, in fact, A problem.
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Jul 4, 2023 05:11
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Main Paineframe posted:They could probably establish standing to sue, in the sense that they could point to a clear and specific impact those actions had on their activities. Nothing unusual about that, really. Yeah I was probably a bit thrown by standing not really needing to be connected to anything else. Text posted:MOHELA, a nonprofit government cor- https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/06/27/politics/fedloan-mohela-new-student-loan-servicer/index.html CNN posted:About 2 million federal student loan borrowers, many of whom are seeking debt relief from the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, will get a new federal student loan servicer as soon as early July. Some marketplace. Text posted:But where
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Jul 4, 2023 05:14
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reignonyourparade posted:I'l go ahead and straight up say it: giving a well rounded education to people who DON'T want it, they just want a job certificate, at the price they are asking, might not be THE problem but it is, in fact, A problem. I agree with this angle while also acknowledging that so many engineering grads can't compose a coherent paragraph and so many English majors unironically ask when they'll ever need math. (friends with professors, the horror stories sound alike across disciplines, with the students' blind spots shuffled around)
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Jul 4, 2023 05:31
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reignonyourparade posted:I'l go ahead and straight up say it: giving a well rounded education to people who DON'T want it, they just want a job certificate, at the price they are asking, might not be THE problem but it is, in fact, A problem. Is it. Getting rid of that seems like a stopgap to me. Ok cut a year or two off a STEM degree by getting rid of all the liberal arts stuff. University is just a training center for more office workers with no intellectual development beyond what a company wants a worker to know. Great, the cost gets cut in half, cool, but the cost of a degree has more than doubled since I was in school, it's still going to double again and erase the savings. The for-profit education model means the market incentivizes schools to extract as much of the expected earnings of the degree as possible.
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Jul 4, 2023 05:33
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Charlz Guybon posted:Somehow I think the court will be less sympathetic to this challenge to legacy admissions. Given that the article itself quotes a conservative justice being openly skeptical of legacy admissions, I wouldn't be quite so quick to jump to this conclusion. In fact, the plaintiffs themselves contended that axing legacy admissions would be an effective way of improving diversity without engaging in directly race-based affirmative action policies, and Gorsuch's concurrence seemed quite receptive to that. Nitrousoxide posted:Denied. Also legacy status is a protected class since they are born with it and you must not discriminate against them. biznatchio posted:In a 6-3 decision, the Supreme Court decides that any racial bias in legacy admissions is merely the fruits of prior racism and not necessarily current racism and so therefore it is not covered by the Civil Rights Act. Can we dial down the "making up hypothetical future outcomes to get mad at" a little bit?
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Jul 4, 2023 05:36
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VitalSigns posted:Is it. All true, wouldn't solve anything to make Just That Change Specifically, but that doesn't make 'giving a well rounded education to people who DON'T want it, they just want a job certificate, at the price they are asking' not A Problem.
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Jul 4, 2023 07:14
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Main Paineframe posted:Can we dial down the "making up hypothetical future outcomes to get mad at" a little bit?
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Jul 4, 2023 07:36
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Main Paineframe posted:Given that the article itself quotes a conservative justice being openly skeptical of legacy admissions, I wouldn't be quite so quick to jump to this conclusion. In fact, the plaintiffs themselves contended that axing legacy admissions would be an effective way of improving diversity without engaging in directly race-based affirmative action policies, and Gorsuch's concurrence seemed quite receptive to that. These isn't anything actionable about legacy admissions though. It is subject to rational basis review and will 100% survive that analysis.
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Jul 4, 2023 08:03
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Main Paineframe posted:Can we dial down the "making up hypothetical future outcomes to get mad at" a little bit? No. This Supreme Court has made multiple awful rulings utterly free from typical measured restraint taking into consideration constraints on "settled law," "standing," and "actual harm." They, like other Republican politicians, no longer deserve to receive the benefit of the doubt.
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Jul 4, 2023 12:18
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VitalSigns posted:I don't know what to tell you, if demand for trade schools goes up, especially by vast amounts if everyone whose parents can't buy them a full ride stops going to four universities like you want, then trade schools are going to raise their prices to capture that extra marginal profit, just like anything else in the market. Why wouldn't they. And if they go up enough because the children of the middle class are bidding up tuition prices, why wouldn't poorer families take out loans to afford it, loans which would need to be guaranteed if trade schools are supposed to be the universal ticket out of poverty. It's all gonna be the same issues. Yeah you'll get more schools opening to take advantage of higher prices (this happened with four year degrees too, a bunch of degree mills opening up as the price points increased), but that isn't going to fix the issue because that's not how capitalism operates. University of Phoenix and its copycats didn't send university tuition back down to what it was in the 90s. Say you're right, the demand isn't going to go up so much that you get crippling debt like 4 year colleges do. In the public vocational school example i showed you, you can become a plumber or auto mechanic just going that route, it's completely free, it's just kids don't want to go to these vocational schools, so that school has vastly lower enrollment than my high school did. The amount of and complexity of the instruction is vastly lower, than say, doing computer science, i don't think you can turn kids into software engineers via high school like you can trades. There's nothing inherent about trades that would make it expensive unless the government started doing stupid crap like guaranteeing loans again, and even still, you're not going to see it cost anywhere near as much as college. Stabbey_the_Clown posted:No. This Supreme Court has made multiple awful rulings utterly free from typical measured restraint taking into consideration constraints on "settled law," "standing," and "actual harm." They, like other Republican politicians, no longer deserve to receive the benefit of the doubt. The funny thing is, the kids these days who benefit from legacies at Harvard are probably more politically aligned to the left than the right. The politics of the children of the upper middle class to straight-up rich who go to elite schools veers quite left.
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Jul 4, 2023 12:47
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reignonyourparade posted:All true, wouldn't solve anything to make Just That Change Specifically, but that doesn't make 'giving a well rounded education to people who DON'T want it, they just want a job certificate, at the price they are asking' not A Problem. Why not make education free for everyone. University, associates degree, coding certificates, trade school. Then there's no problem. Everyone is free to choose what kind of education they want.
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Jul 4, 2023 14:06
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Also, as I said before, the job market changes and your needs may shift quickly. I am glad that I had that well rounded education because I taught outside of my content subject for 15+ years. You never know where the road is going to take you and having a well rounded education may be a life saver in the future.
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Jul 4, 2023 14:41
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Bizarro Kanyon posted:Also, as I said before, the job market changes and your needs may shift quickly. I am glad that I had that well rounded education because I taught outside of my content subject for 15+ years. I mean, i have an accounting/finance background, and i have multiple degrees. Me being 'well rounded' isn't going to allow me to be a software engineer even though the market for that is hot. The barrier to entry for trades is low so risk is low, in terms of financial and opportunity cost. Really, the barrier is only 'high' because society tells everyone that you need college to succeed and people think trades are 'lesser than' college/knowledge work. Also, trades are less susceptible to automation from AI, until we have technological singularity, we won't have robots with the requisite combination of knowledge/manual dexterity to do plumbing work anywhere near the horizon.
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Jul 4, 2023 15:15
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Mister Fister posted:I mean, i have an accounting/finance background, and i have multiple degrees. Me being 'well rounded' isn't going to allow me to be a software engineer even though the market for that is hot. I am not sure about automation, but at least you can't offshore stuff like plumbing.
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Jul 4, 2023 15:40
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Mister Fister posted:Say you're right, the demand isn't going to go up so much that you get crippling debt like 4 year colleges do. In the public vocational school example i showed you, you can become a plumber or auto mechanic just going that route, it's completely free, it's just kids don't want to go to these vocational schools, so that school has vastly lower enrollment than my high school did. The amount of and complexity of the instruction is vastly lower, than say, doing computer science, i don't think you can turn kids into software engineers via high school like you can trades. There's nothing inherent about trades that would make it expensive unless the government started doing stupid crap like guaranteeing loans again, and even still, you're not going to see it cost anywhere near as much as college. Well then it's not the solution to the problem of expensive education and the hollowing out of good-paying union jobs for people with high school degrees if you don't want too many more people to go to trade school is it. 4-year degrees didn't become expensive and predatory because college administrators are uniquely immoral beings (but only in America for some reason). It's the natural result of market incentives when everyone wants good jobs and a piece of paper is required for them. If that paper is worth millions of dollars over a lifetime, people are going to be willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and go into debt if they have to to get it, of course the people providing the paper are going to try to extract as much of that million-dollar value from students. The complexity of instruction doesn't matter, businesses charge what people are willing to pay, not what the service costs to provide (or there'd be no profit). I got my engineering degree for a fraction of what the school I went to charges now. Electrical engineering instructing didn't triple in complexity in just 15 years, the price skyrocketed for economic reasons. If you send everyone who needs loans for undergrad to trade school instead and tell them the paper is going to be worth $150k/yr, all those same predatory incentives will be there (and of course they'll find that plumbers don't make $150k anymore when schools start minting tons of newly trained plumbers). And if you don't send everyone who needs loans for undergrad to trade school instead then you didn't solve the problem. Mister Fister posted:
Nah what happened is the Democratic Party became economically right-wing to consciously attract that exact wealthy but socially liberal ivy league set. When Bernie Sanders won the early primaries the trust fund kiddos were furious, just absolutely losing their poo poo.
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Jul 4, 2023 16:09
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OddObserver posted:I am not sure about automation, but at least you can't offshore stuff like plumbing. This is why I tell people to look into PLC, electrical and mechanical work. The more that gets automated the more we need people to fix the automation. I work in manufacturing and it’s extremely hard to find anyone who already knows that stuff. And the minute we train someone they were leaving, so we have upped their pay significantly. It’s one of the safest careers I can think of. Again, this is advice for individuals. If everyone did it it wouldn’t work that way.
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Jul 4, 2023 16:37
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VitalSigns posted:Well then it's not the solution to the problem of expensive education and the hollowing out of good-paying union jobs for people with high school degrees if you don't want too many more people to go to trade school is it. Look, we're just not going to agree about this. The obvious solution (and it already exists) is public vocational schooling. It's cheap to implement and doesn't require extensive schooling. quote:Nah what happened is the Democratic Party became economically right-wing to consciously attract that exact wealthy but socially liberal ivy league set. lol, come on, go to any DSA meeting, it's mostly white middle/upper middle class PMC's. ANTIFA and other 'revolutionaries' also tend to be wealthy and white.
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Jul 4, 2023 16:47
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For any folks who don’t normally watch this thread, yes, it does indeed just turn into a general USPOL discussion in between court sessions, and you might as well stop reading now.
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Jul 4, 2023 16:54
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Public vocational school and public college are both great ideas bit they won't solve the "all the jobs gone" problem we are heading towards as AI advances. We need UBI but the world ain't ready for that talk.
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Jul 4, 2023 16:57
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Crows Turn Off posted:SCOTUS doesn't... so why should we? Stabbey_the_Clown posted:No. This Supreme Court has made multiple awful rulings utterly free from typical measured restraint taking into consideration constraints on "settled law," "standing," and "actual harm." They, like other Republican politicians, no longer deserve to receive the benefit of the doubt. I actually am going to ask that folks cool down on the "It's all calvinball" peanut gallery posting. This thread provokes a lot of seemingly earnest and, at least in my opinion, really engaging questions and I don't think it's interesting for a question like "how does the majority justify their ruling" to get peppered with answers like "lol, doesn't matter." I'm not asking anyone to pretend that the SC isn't highly partisan, but I don't think "the supreme court is captured, op" is going to blow the mind of anyone who posts in D&D so it probably doesn't need to be the entire content of multiple posts every page.
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Jul 4, 2023 17:23
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Mister Fister posted:Look, we're just not going to agree about this. The obvious solution (and it already exists) is public vocational schooling. It's cheap to implement and doesn't require extensive schooling. Mister Fister posted:lol, come on, go to any DSA meeting, it's mostly white middle/upper middle class PMC's. ANTIFA and other 'revolutionaries' also tend to be wealthy and white. You can watch the town hall where the DNC invited Harvard trust fund kiddies to call Sanders a bolveshik and accuse him of wanting to murder their parents, and to run a Willie Horton on him about criminal justice. The video of that millionaire liberal msnbc host crying that he's going to be beheaded in Central Park if Sanders wins is on YouTube. And wealthy white people are more likely to wring their hands about the Starbucks getting broken windows than they are to put on a mask and fight with cops lmbo. Just some simple logical examination will tell you that ANTIFA can't be the rich: are the wealthy comfortable people at the top of the system getting all the benefit from it likely to be the ones angry enough at the system to violently resist it? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jul 4, 2023 |
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Jul 4, 2023 17:31
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Baronash posted:I actually am going to ask that folks cool down on the "It's all calvinball" peanut gallery posting. This thread provokes a lot of seemingly earnest and, at least in my opinion, really engaging questions and I don't think it's interesting for a question like "how does the majority justify their ruling" to get peppered with answers like "lol, doesn't matter." Ah so we are moderating positions
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Jul 4, 2023 17:32
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VitalSigns posted:Ah so we are moderating positions Nope, just whether a post is adding to the discussion, which I generally try to enforce pretty loosely, since this is a discussion forum and not a thesis defense, but zero content replies to earnest questions seem to hit this thread hard after major decisions.
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Jul 4, 2023 17:56
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Public vocational school and public college are both great ideas bit they won't solve the "all the jobs gone" problem we are heading towards as AI advances. We need UBI but the world ain't ready for that talk. We are already at the point where most industrialized countries are rich enough that most people should never have to work.
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Jul 4, 2023 18:56
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Pook Good Mook posted:We are already at the point where most industrialized countries are rich enough that most people should never have to work. I don't think we're quite there yet. We are definitely past the point where none should have to suffer though.
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Jul 4, 2023 19:02
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VitalSigns posted:It can be a good choice for some people in the current environment. It's not a solution for the entire 99% of the population whose education isn't covered by trust funds. Lol come on man, i was a sanders supporter and cspam poster back in 2016, i have a dual masters degree and make decent PMC type money, i'm far from atypical. The divide between sanders/clinton voters was mostly young/old and to some degree white/black. The sanders coalition is all but dead now, and basically you have a left-liberal synthesis that's mostly about being team players (think AOC). I'm not saying every radical is rich, but again, as i stated, class is more distinguished by education now, so yes you have educated poor people, but also a lot of educated middle/upper middle PMC's and straight up rich representing DSA/ANTIFA types. Remember the lawyers who were prosecuted for throwing Molotov cocktails at cops? They worked for Biglaw. George Soros' progeny basically announced he's going to use his dad's fortune to actually be more active in politics, this is the same guy funding all the anti-carceral district attorneys all over the country (Boudin/Bragg/Foxx/Krasner/etc.), and just recently, the heir to the Cox Media Empire announced he was going to use his money to support socialist infrastructure and cut ties with his family over 'cop city': https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1675946754108428288 At the very least, you have to admit far lefties are overrepresented by whites (this was one thing clinton backers were absolutely right on).
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Jul 4, 2023 19:27
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Bizarro Kanyon posted:Also, as I said before, the job market changes and your needs may shift quickly. I am glad that I had that well rounded education because I taught outside of my content subject for 15+ years. This. Also you can be the best engineer that ever engineered or the most brilliant scientist on the planet but if you can't get your ideas across in an understandable way via either oral or written communication poo poo's not going to go well. I mean we literally just saw this in action with the absolute fumbling of public health messaging during the pandemic. Bunch of brilliant doctors scientists and epidemiologists who don't know how to talk to loving laypeople or realize how bad the kind of hedging you do in scientific papers where absolutely nothing can ever be an absolute leads to your average Joe deciding you don't know what you're talking about because you refuse to give a straight answer.
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Jul 4, 2023 19:41
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I'm sure you can find some rich guys who are anti-cop or who love Cuba or whatever, a few exceptions doesn't prove anything. It's patently obvious whose side the rich are on. It's well-documented that policy in America follows the preferences of the rich, and American policy aint anti-cop lol. I don't really know what you mean when you say education is the new class divide, it sounds like a substitution of politics with some personal cultural grudge. It's not the grad student on a $20,000/yr fellowship or the service industry worker paying off their master's degree on IBR that can afford to buy some face time with senators in wine caves to get another business subsidy slipped into the budget. There's plenty of criticisms one can make of the Sanders campaign, but I don't think they amount to proof that the wealthy want their wealth redistributed (???) or that the educated poor are secretly creating all the pro-rich policies of Democratic and Republican administrators VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Jul 4, 2023 |
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Jul 4, 2023 19:49
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Oracle posted:This. Also you can be the best engineer that ever engineered or the most brilliant scientist on the planet but if you can't get your ideas across in an understandable way via either oral or written communication poo poo's not going to go well. It seems to me that we could include certain requirements that are tailored to the major that would provide some "rounding" without going the full on 120 credit hours study a bit of everything approach. In the engineering example, there could be like one course requirement that's like "communication for engineers" that focuses on the specific challenges inherent in communicating complex math/systems ideas to non-experts (both written and speaking) in lieu of like English 101 and Speech 101. Similarly, there could be "Math for the Social Sciences" that touches on some basics like algebra and whatnot but gives an overview of basic statistics and regression. Math for Artists that includes geometry and perspective. I think having a well-educated citizenry is super important and having people learn about history, literature, art, math, science, and biology is great and all things being equal is my preferred solution. But I just don't know if that really works. Maybe there's a distinction where you can get like a BA/BS in a subject that's 2 years and just basically all the major-required courses, and another option that's a 4-year BA/BS with some other name that indicates you did your studies and also got the "well rounded" college experience. Or something.
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Jul 4, 2023 20:04
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