TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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Pakxos: Mar 21, 2020

moths posted:

This one isn't even hard:

Any social media is going to have nazis on it.

If you publicly signal and advertise that they will be identified by ~some means~ yours will have fewer. They're terrified of being tracked and listed like zika mosquitoes or sick herd animals. Look at how they freaked out about glowies.

You can't eliminate all of them, but you can 1) dissuade and disincentivize by identifying their accounts as hate groups and 2) denying them any audience but having their accounts ignored by default.

The missing piece is a few pressers inviting cooperation with the ACLU, SLPC, and feds about the lists.

Or sure, do the Musk thing and invite atomwaffen back on or whatever the gently caress. Nobody listen to me, I only have bad ideas

e: You don't get rid of them by saying you don't want them. You get rid of them by being a place they don't desire to be, where the cost outweighs the benefit. Having an actual verification process would help, too. Not just blue-checks-for-cash, but "We've got your drivers' license on file" verification.

Wow. The platonic ideal Democrat was not on my bingo card for the 4th.

Pakxos fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Jul 4, 2023

# ? Jul 4, 2023 20:23

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# ? May 27, 2024 17:28

imweasel09: May 26, 2014

CitizenKeen posted:

I thought I heard about some bad eggs on staff.

I dunno about the first bit but they were going to allow sexualized imagery of minors https://cohost.org/staff/post/1624196-community-guidelines until everyone yelled at them and they backpeddled. Kinda moot i guess because it's like a 4 person project hemmoraging 40k a month i very much doubt it's long for this world.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 20:42

admanb: Jun 18, 2014

imweasel09 posted:

I dunno about the first bit but they were going to allow sexualized imagery of minors https://cohost.org/staff/post/1624196-community-guidelines until everyone yelled at them and they backpeddled. Kinda moot i guess because it's like a 4 person project hemmoraging 40k a month i very much doubt it's long for this world.

tumblr-brain is highly-contagious and nearly impossible to cure once caught

(referring mostly to the arguments in the comments on that post and the update, but also I suspect the decision itself originated from that)

# ? Jul 4, 2023 21:13

Tendales: Mar 9, 2012

You get rid of Nazis by getting rid of Nazis. The furries and the knitters already figured this out.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 21:27

Nystral: Feb 6, 2002; Every man likes a pretty girl with him at a skeleton dance.

Tendales posted:

You get rid of Nazis by getting rid of Nazis. The furries and the knitters already figured this out.

Nazi knitters? I shouldn�t be surprised but TBH I never thought that knitting would have a nazi problem.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:07

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

Nazis are everybody's problem.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:09

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Nystral posted:

Nazi knitters? I shouldn�t be surprised but TBH I never thought that knitting would have a nazi problem.

Imagine how many �traditional European lifestyle� white women are into knitting.

Also I read furries and knitters together as furriers like someone was bringing the Hudson�s Bay Company back.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:11

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

Arivia posted:

Imagine how many �traditional European lifestyle� white women are into knitting.

Also I read furries and knitters together as furriers like someone was bringing the Hudson�s Bay Company back.

Don't say that; the EIC will arise from the pits of Hell to compete with them!

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:13

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

Don't say that; the EIC will arise from the pits of Hell to compete with them!

Alternate history cyberpunk game! You could play an actual M�tis character!

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:17

Nystral: Feb 6, 2002; Every man likes a pretty girl with him at a skeleton dance.

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

Don't say that; the EIC will arise from the pits of Hell to compete with them!

Hudson Bay never left, they�re largely known as the Bay now have department stores in most major malls in Canada.

EIC no clue..

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:28

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

East India Company

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:35

3 Action Economist: May 22, 2002; Educate. Agitate. Liberate.

moths posted:

This one isn't even hard:

Any social media is going to have nazis on it.

If you publicly signal and advertise that they will be identified by ~some means~ yours will have fewer. They're terrified of being tracked and listed like zika mosquitoes or sick herd animals. Look at how they freaked out about glowies.

You can't eliminate all of them, but you can 1) dissuade and disincentivize by identifying their accounts as hate groups and 2) denying them any audience but having their accounts ignored by default.

The missing piece is a few pressers inviting cooperation with the ACLU, SLPC, and feds about the lists.

Or sure, do the Musk thing and invite atomwaffen back on or whatever the gently caress. Nobody listen to me, I only have bad ideas

e: You don't get rid of them by saying you don't want them. You get rid of them by being a place they don't desire to be, where the cost outweighs the benefit. Having an actual verification process would help, too. Not just blue-checks-for-cash, but "We've got your drivers' license on file" verification.

You could do as this while also banning them

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:35

King of Solomon: Oct 23, 2008; S S

3 Action Economist posted:

You could do as this while also banning them

I agree:
"Based on a variety of factors, the following users have been banned for being Nazis

1...."

It's not hard.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:39

admanb: Jun 18, 2014

3 Action Economist posted:

You could do as this while also banning them

but think of how much worse they�ll feel if you let them stick around but only talk to the audience that�s uninterested in/unaware of the ability to mute them

that�ll be worse for them, for some reason.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:42

Falstaff: Apr 27, 2008; I have a kind of alacrity in sinking.

*Me, a Nazi, while running NATO:* I can't believe how hard I was deplatformed! Definitely coping and seething right now!

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:47

Feels Villeneuve: Oct 7, 2007; Setter is Better.

Falstaff posted:

*Me, a Nazi, while running NATO:* I can't believe how hard I was deplatformed! Definitely coping and seething right now!

this about social media. or board games or something

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:53

Kalman: Jan 17, 2010

3 Action Economist posted:

You could do as this while also banning them

Mostly it's future-proofing for the goal for their system.

Bluesky is intending to do federation, meaning there will be users on other servers they can't ban. They could defederate from the server, but it's possible that a server might have a lot of good users they don't want to lose access to. Providing a way to label the Nazis and block their content gives an option in that regard.

There's also the part where they're trying to farm moderation out to third party labeling services by letting you pick who's moderating, based on the standards you want. Out and out swastikas might be an easy call (unless its someone posting ancient artwork with swastikas in it, because content moderation isn't actually easy); there will be others that are definitely less easy, where people could disagree and it wouldn't be beyond the pale. Providing a tag-based system in combination with external labeling lets users pick a labeler who applies the standard they want.

I don't know how well it'll wind up being adopted/working, but it's not a "lol let's let the nazis on our servers" setting.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:54

Bottom Liner: Feb 15, 2006; a specific vein of lasagna

Kalman posted:

Mostly it's future-proofing for the goal for their system.

Bluesky is intending to do federation, meaning there will be users on other servers they can't ban. They could defederate from the server, but it's possible that a server might have a lot of good users they don't want to lose access to. Providing a way to label the Nazis and block their content gives an option in that regard.

All sounds real bad and has no upsides to go with the downside of being a haven for Nazis that are protected by design of said bad system.

Is federated going to be the next web3 buzzword?

# ? Jul 4, 2023 22:58

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

3 Action Economist posted:

You could do as this while also banning them

Yes, and you probably should.

Hanging up a "no nazis please" sign is pointless and stupid though, since you just end up with 2018's groypers and OK hand gestures and insufferable arguments about how it's not really Nazism if it's not from the Nazi region of 1939 Berlin.

Stick all the alt righters and terfs into the auto-ignore oubliette where the feds can clock them, do a very public contribution to SPLC, actual ID verification, and you should be fine.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 23:04

Terrible Opinions: Oct 18, 2013

moths posted:

Yes, and you probably should.

Hanging up a "no nazis please" sign is pointless and stupid though, since you just end up with 2018's groypers and OK hand gestures and insufferable arguments about how it's not really Nazism if it's not from the Nazi region of 1939 Berlin.

Stick all the alt righters and terfs into the auto-ignore oubliette where the feds can clock them, do a very public contribution to SPLC, actual ID verification, and you should be fine.

If you have an ability to track nazi posts and make them ignorable, you also have a system for tracking people who make nazi posts and banning them. No one ever suggested a "no nazis please" sign. They're pointing out that there is no reason to not change the find nazi posts and ignore them system to a find nazi posts and ban them system.

edit: Dog King was perma banned just a few days ago. No reason besides wanting to profit off nazis every social media platform can't do the same thing.

# ? Jul 4, 2023 23:22

Feels Villeneuve: Oct 7, 2007; Setter is Better.

it depends a lot on how many moderators you have versus how much activity you have, but a site attempting to be even close to the scale of Twitter should probably have enough paid moderators to handle it

this isn't a case like a general-audience forum/chatroom where you have a blanket no-politics rule in order to make things easier for your moderators, if your site is that big you should probably have a way to handle this

# ? Jul 4, 2023 23:27

Magnetic North: Dec 15, 2008; Beware the Forest's Mushrooms

Also it's important to consider the reverse: If you don't hang a no-nazis-allowed sign, then unless your site is really small or really lucky such that it escapes the notice of the Garbage Pail Kids, the targeted groups will not feel safe on your website and will leave or never arrive, thereby making you dependent on the nazis that remain. This means you can never reverse the policy after a certain amount of entrenchment without simply shuttering the entire business or potentially being subjected to a harassment campaign and/or terrorism.

This conversation is weird: if someone were saying it's a practical issue to root out the nazi fucks, then I'd understand because of the core and continual deceptions baked into these types of ideologies. However, because it's a feature on the website, it's fair to accept that they can somehow find the nazi content and are thereby electing to serve nazi content.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 00:02

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Bottom Liner posted:

All sounds real bad and has no upsides to go with the downside of being a haven for Nazis that are protected by design of said bad system.

Is federated going to be the next web3 buzzword?

No because there's no markets in federated hosting and isn't futuristic enough.

Federated hosting already exists too in Mastadon and, in general, email where everything is on the same protocol, but the domains are independent.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 00:24

Narsham: Jun 5, 2008

First they came for the Nazis, and I said nothing, because I was not a Nazi.
Then they didn�t come for anyone else, because they weren�t Nazis either.

Maybe if your platform rules are focused on how Nazi participation can be limited, you�ve already given up. If the Department of Justice wants to track Nazis or other white supremacists and they�re relying on a social media company�s auto-ignore list to do so, there�s a bigger problem there.

Just ban Nazis, keep a list of banned accounts, and let the feds use that list. Otherwise, you�re still giving them a platform.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 00:24

Dexo: Aug 15, 2009; A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.

From what I have seen of Bluesky like all of those tags are specifically for when they turn on federation. Which is when they won't be able to easily moderate people. As that is when people are going to be on more than just the one server, they've been testing and developing on.

Bluesky whenever they are ready to like actually go live is seemingly structured around largely just giving community tagging tools and the like to individual server admins to control what comes into or is filtered out of their instance.

Bluesky is less of a social media site, and more like I dunno almost like the server browser for games with dedicated servers. Or yeah it's a mastodon.

I'm not particularly interested in using Bluesky ever, nor I going to defend it from probably being trash, as yeah it's being ran by lovely people in general. But like with what the intended goal of the service is it makes sense.

Also federated is not some web3 buzzword lol. It's a concept that's been around in software for a long long while.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 00:30

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

I saw this tweet the other day

I didn't think too much of it at first; "D&D monster design mostly only covers combat stats and how to kill things, and that shapes how we treat the game and the world" is a fairly accurate/correct take, but is otherwise fairly familiar to myself (and I imagine to most people reading this post)

but then

and then

and to be clear, the implication of this third image is that we once again have yet another TRPG/D&D writer that's from the officer-veteran-MIC caste

# ? Jul 5, 2023 08:54

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
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Thanlis posted:

.
Also worth noting that Jay Graber used to be a crypto dev which makes me a bit less trusting of her judgement.

Lol

imweasel09 posted:

I dunno about the first bit but they were going to allow sexualized imagery of minors https://cohost.org/staff/post/1624196-community-guidelines until everyone yelled at them and they backpeddled.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 09:19

Megazver: Jan 13, 2006

gradenko_2000 posted:

I saw this tweet the other day

I didn't think too much of it at first; "D&D monster design mostly only covers combat stats and how to kill things, and that shapes how we treat the game and the world" is a fairly accurate/correct take, but is otherwise fairly familiar to myself (and I imagine to most people reading this post)

but then

and then

and to be clear, the implication of this third image is that we once again have yet another TRPG/D&D writer that's from the officer-veteran-MIC caste

�\_(ツ)_/� tbh

# ? Jul 5, 2023 09:43

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

it feels like D&D is even more popular in the us armed forces than it is in prison, somehow

# ? Jul 5, 2023 10:11

Comrade Koba: Jul 2, 2007

3d8+12 collateral damage in a 25-mile radius

# ? Jul 5, 2023 10:26

90s Cringe Rock: Nov 29, 2006

imweasel09 posted:

I dunno about the first bit but they were going to allow sexualized imagery of minors https://cohost.org/staff/post/1624196-community-guidelines until everyone yelled at them and they backpeddled. Kinda moot i guess because it's like a 4 person project hemmoraging 40k a month i very much doubt it's long for this world.

rationale behind fictional 18+ content depicting minors updates

let's face it, there was no possible way we could make everyone happy here.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 10:31

TheDiceMustRoll: Jul 23, 2018

gradenko_2000 posted:

I saw this tweet the other day

I didn't think too much of it at first; "D&D monster design mostly only covers combat stats and how to kill things, and that shapes how we treat the game and the world" is a fairly accurate/correct take, but is otherwise fairly familiar to myself (and I imagine to most people reading this post)

but then

and then

and to be clear, the implication of this third image is that we once again have yet another TRPG/D&D writer that's from the officer-veteran-MIC caste

Most wargames are over 40 years old and the average age of a us military officer is allegedly in the mid-thirties so idk. It's not like people in the military have no hobbies. :shrug:

# ? Jul 5, 2023 11:37

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

The military is chock full of nerds for whatever reasons. See the late famous furry porn artist Doug Winger.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 12:10

Randalor: Sep 4, 2011

gradenko_2000 posted:

I saw this tweet the other day

I didn't think too much of it at first; "D&D monster design mostly only covers combat stats and how to kill things, and that shapes how we treat the game and the world" is a fairly accurate/correct take, but is otherwise fairly familiar to myself (and I imagine to most people reading this post)

but then

and then

and to be clear, the implication of this third image is that we once again have yet another TRPG/D&D writer that's from the officer-veteran-MIC caste

I'm confused. Is the second post saying to track down the guy with the large mustache, or is he the one calling for the manhunt? Is the issue ~~probably~~ possible cultural appropriation and making a game that prooooooobably goes against everything Miyazaki would actually approve of while basing its design off of his works? I'm just confused about this situation in general, though I do like the concept of a sheep dragon.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 12:18

GimpInBlack: Sep 27, 2012; That's right, kids, take lots of drugs, leave the universe behind, and pilot Enlightenment Voltron out into the cosmos to meet Alien Jesus.

Randalor posted:

I'm confused. Is the second post saying to track down the guy with the large mustache, or is he the one calling for the manhunt? Is the issue ~~probably~~ possible cultural appropriation and making a game that prooooooobably goes against everything Miyazaki would actually approve of while basing its design off of his works? I'm just confused about this situation in general, though I do like the concept of a sheep dragon.

The tweeter is writing in present tense describing what he did (i.e. "I saw this Kickstarter with no author names listed, so I tracked down the team to see if they had any Asian members and instead I found this guy.").

# ? Jul 5, 2023 12:23

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Randalor posted:

Is the second post saying to track down the guy with the large mustache, or is he the one calling for the manhunt?

my understanding is that the person with the large moustache is at least part of the team that's writing the Sheep Dragon/Miyazaki-themed supplement

# ? Jul 5, 2023 12:23

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

gradenko_2000 posted:

I saw this tweet the other day

I didn't think too much of it at first; "D&D monster design mostly only covers combat stats and how to kill things, and that shapes how we treat the game and the world" is a fairly accurate/correct take, but is otherwise fairly familiar to myself (and I imagine to most people reading this post)

but then

and then

and to be clear, the implication of this third image is that we once again have yet another TRPG/D&D writer that's from the officer-veteran-MIC caste

"Oh god and he's a crypto guy.

Oh wait no it's the original type of crypto.

Oh wait he's the bad kind of original crypto guy."

# ? Jul 5, 2023 12:29

Randalor: Sep 4, 2011

Ooooooh okay, I thought that was what was going on, but I wasn't 100% certain. In my defense, the guy with the giant mustache looks equally like someone who would use cultural appropriation and draw very heavily on a famous artist's style while completely ignoring the artist's messages in their works, OR be a massive white supremacist shithead who calls for the blood of a team that have non-white people who dare to use D&D for something that isn't just "murder everything" or for "cutesifying" D&D.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 12:29

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Megazver posted:

�\_(ツ)_/� tbh

Thank you for your input.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 12:31

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# ? May 27, 2024 17:28

CitizenKeen: Nov 13, 2003; easygoing pedant

D&D has always had a huge military following. I don't think that's new. It's a hobby that involves escapism, minimal physical gear, and benefits from having a lot of time (especially boredom time). It's like it was made for grunts in the military.

I'd probably be mildly surprised to meet a veteran who has never tried D&D.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 13:34

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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