|
Just finished rewatching season 1 last night. I had forgotten how quickly Morden and friends moved in, I thought it was a ways into S2 before they made their move. A few comments: Morden is such a great character, that smarmy smile is just so perfectly infuriating. I don't buy that Londo only learned about how Minbari react to alcohol when he tried to get Lennier drunk, that has to be common knowledge in any bars that Minbari can turn up at and he'd have to have heard it. The Minbari government seems amazingly unsophisticated to me - they're presented as being wise and ancient, but 'we will pick a supreme leader, but if they don't want to be leader we will kick them out of the council entirely' seems like a really unstable way to keep things running. We never get a close look at how the caste system works or how the grey council is selected, but a ruling body that can easily kick out one of it's member with a simple majority vote without regard to the wishes of their selectors (or electors, or however it's done) is pretty much designed to collapse in a crisis. The fact that there hasn't been a major outside stress since the last Shadow War looks like the only reason they haven't had some other sort of civil war or major shift in the council. I think JMS gets a lot of things wrong about weapons, the bit with the secret agent's PPG in the last episode of S1 is IMO the biggest spot where that jumps out. Why would any intelligence agency want PPGs with no serial number if said agency is the only one who can get them? You may as well stamp "I AM A SECRET AGENT YOU HAVE BLOWN MY COVER" on the coil. I think they'd much rather have PPGs with ordinary-looking serial numbers that trace off to something inconclusive, like 'this was part of a shipment to an alien resistance group 30 light years away' or 'this was part of a shipment that was believed destroyed while being transported' or something along those lines. That one always really jumped out at me because they point out why 'they have the only guns with no serial numbers' is a bad idea in the next breath after they find that it has no serial number.
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2023 02:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 05:49 |
|
|
Pantaloon Pontiff posted:I think JMS gets a lot of things wrong about weapons, the bit with the secret agent's PPG in the last episode of S1 is IMO the biggest spot where that jumps out. Why would any intelligence agency want PPGs with no serial number if said agency is the only one who can get them? You may as well stamp "I AM A SECRET AGENT YOU HAVE BLOWN MY COVER" on the coil. I think they'd much rather have PPGs with ordinary-looking serial numbers that trace off to something inconclusive, like 'this was part of a shipment to an alien resistance group 30 light years away' or 'this was part of a shipment that was believed destroyed while being transported' or something along those lines. That one always really jumped out at me because they point out why 'they have the only guns with no serial numbers' is a bad idea in the next breath after they find that it has no serial number. It's a power trip. It's like when cops cover their IDs in protests, then pretend it's a sign of respect for some fallen comrade or whatever. It's a stupid lie that's meant to prove their power over you, because you can't do poo poo about it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2023 02:58
|
|
|
MrL_JaKiri posted:The Chrysalids by John Wyndham (better known for Day of the Triffids and The Midwich Cuckoos) is about a post-apocalyptic society which has reverted to a kind of puritanism, in which some children develop telepathy. Not very long, worth a read. In my head I'm imagining a book about a bunch of shadow government agents arriving at a city in a top secret drop ship, stepping off the aircraft, taking a good look around, and then immediately leaving so a nuke can clean up what's going on.
|
|
#
?
Jul 4, 2023 03:35
|
|
|
It's fun spotting the very 90s stuff that you don't expect. I'm on the second episode of S2, and "90s men would rather arrest the representative of an ancient, warlike alien empire than go to therapy," sums up how Sheridan deals with his wife death two years after it happened. A modern show still might have him refuse to do anything about it, but his sister would definitely be telling him to get to a therapist ASAP. As a general comment I still really like the sets, makeup, and costuming on the show. Sometimes the sets are wobbly enough that you can tell they're sets, but in spite of that they are varied and do a good job at showing different environments. I think the CGI holds up really well too, aside from the issue with composite shots. Obviously there is a lot less detail on ships and stations than you'd see now, but they all have good, distinct designs, and really good movements and scene composition. I was expecting to have to make myself ignore a lot of this and focus on the story itself, but I've been pleasantly surprised at how well it holds up overall.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2023 02:34
|
|
|
The choreography of the space battles is top notch. They didn’t have a lot of pixels or polygons to spare, but they made up for it with very well-constructed scenes
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2023 02:57
|
|
|
ConfusedUs posted:The choreography of the space battles is top notch. They didn’t have a lot of pixels or polygons to spare, but they made up for it with very well-constructed scenes Yeah. The artistry is great and makes it so the lack of technical quality really doesn't matter much, especially after the first season.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2023 04:17
|
|
|
Pantaloon Pontiff posted:It's fun spotting the very 90s stuff that you don't expect. I'm on the second episode of S2, and "90s men would rather arrest the representative of an ancient, warlike alien empire than go to therapy," sums up how Sheridan deals with his wife death two years after it happened. A modern show still might have him refuse to do anything about it, but his sister would definitely be telling him to get to a therapist ASAP. going from s5 back to s1 it's really noticeable how much more vibrant the alien scenes used to be, like early on it feels like they were just hella pumped to be doing all these mad alienfaces and crowd scenes, by s5 it was more 'ok, three of those, couple of forehead guys, let's go'
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2023 05:43
|
|
|
There are copies of the original animation files. Some people have re-rendered some scenes and put them up, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf0ka2xJF94
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2023 05:50
|
|
|
There are only one or two instances in the whole thing where I actively noticed the sets being bad. They did a great job with it really.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2023 07:32
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:Yeah. The artistry is great and makes it so the lack of technical quality really doesn't matter much, especially after the first season. I think of it like an animated series - generally you don't expect animation to have the level of texture and detail you get in modern CGI. I did hit the technomage episode, and head-cannoned that the 'oh look a 90s CGI creature' effect was deliberate on their part, that the Technomages are going for 'you can tell we didn't loose a real creature, but do you want to gamble that it can't hurt you?' with their guardian thing. Qwertycoatl posted:There are only one or two instances in the whole thing where I actively noticed the sets being bad. They did a great job with it really. I had seen some comments about sets so was actively looking for 'is there anything wrong with the sets'. The shuttle flight scene in Babylon Squared is one notable place, the walls and console panels of the shuttle cockpit don't seem permanently attached to each other. It's something that I only notice if I'm looking to notice it though, it's not enough to make the scene laughable or require me to treat it like old Doctor Who (where an alien might be some spray-painted bubble wrap) to enjoy it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2023 14:37
|
|
|
They built the station sets (other than the Zocolo/C&C) out of modular panels so that they could configure any size or shape of room they wanted on the fly from show to show. It made them a lot more flexible in terms of “how much of the station” they could show, even if it all basically looked the same.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2023 14:40
|
|
|
ConfusedUs posted:The choreography of the space battles is top notch. They didn’t have a lot of pixels or polygons to spare, but they made up for it with very well-constructed scenes (Then Doug Netter fired Foundation to give his own company the B5 VFX contract, so Foundation did Trek themselves!)
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2023 14:42
|
|
|
I think the modularity works especially well since the station is supposed to be manufactured as a space station. You'd expect all of the rooms to look like reconfigurations of the same components since all of the components were probably made and shipped at once when the station was being built. It's not like offices or retail spaces on earth where the interiors were each redone at various times over the few decades with differing styles, building codes, and suppliers and there aren't any historical areas where people are trying to preserve an old look.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2023 17:42
|
|
|
Pantaloon Pontiff posted:I think the modularity works especially well since the station is supposed to be manufactured as a space station. You'd expect all of the rooms to look like reconfigurations of the same components since all of the components were probably made and shipped at once when the station was being built. It's not like offices or retail spaces on earth where the interiors were each redone at various times over the few decades with differing styles, building codes, and suppliers and there aren't any historical areas where people are trying to preserve an old look. That's the whole point of down below, they built it with more space than they needed to start to organically fill in later.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2023 19:56
|
|
|
The top thing about the backgrounds is the fact that B5 really put in the effort to stuff them full of people at every turn, which really made the space feel "lived in". That also made the attempts at CGI backgrounds stand out more as feeling pretty empty. The decor, I dunno how to describe it. It's not the kind of minimalism you get with a lot of the flavors of Star Trek, it's not Star Wars-style worn-out future, it's not Stargate's spartan utilitarianism. It's just kinda 90s futurism. sebmojo posted:going from s5 back to s1 it's really noticeable how much more vibrant the alien scenes used to be, like early on it feels like they were just hella pumped to be doing all these mad alienfaces and crowd scenes, by s5 it was more 'ok, three of those, couple of forehead guys, let's go' I think part of that was the fact that early B5 was still trying a lot of ideas that over time they decided didn't work, but also after the "main" plot kicked off, the show kinda collapsed from another sci-fi show with a big new galaxy to explore into a tighter political drama soap opera, and even after that ended, the show never quite opened back up again.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2023 23:21
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:The decor, I dunno how to describe it. It's not the kind of minimalism you get with a lot of the flavors of Star Trek, it's not Star Wars-style worn-out future, it's not Stargate's spartan utilitarianism. It's just kinda 90s futurism. It's somewhat futurized 80's Technoir. As in, you remember the club Technoir from The Terminator? That vibe taken a bit forward and with aliens.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2023 23:39
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:The top thing about the backgrounds is the fact that B5 really put in the effort to stuff them full of people at every turn, which really made the space feel "lived in". That also made the attempts at CGI backgrounds stand out more as feeling pretty empty. Yeah. It's why the scene from Sleeping in Light that gets me hardest isn't Sheridan seeing the sun come up, or his last morning with Delenn, or even the station exploding. It's the scene where Sheridan is walking through the empty Zocalo. A bustling hub turned into a liminal space, waiting for the lights to go out for the final time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 01:04
|
|
|
mllaneza posted:There are copies of the original animation files. Some people have re-rendered some scenes and put them up, I remember JMS saying he really hates that stuff like this exists, but I am glad that it does.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 06:26
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:I remember JMS saying he really hates that stuff like this exists, but I am glad that it does. Well, we hate that that Marcus story exists. It's an imperfect universe.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 14:42
|
|
|
Pantaloon Pontiff posted:The Minbari government seems amazingly unsophisticated to me - they're presented as being wise and ancient, but 'we will pick a supreme leader, but if they don't want to be leader we will kick them out of the council entirely' seems like a really unstable way to keep things running. We never get a close look at how the caste system works or how the grey council is selected, but a ruling body that can easily kick out one of it's member with a simple majority vote without regard to the wishes of their selectors (or electors, or however it's done) is pretty much designed to collapse in a crisis. The fact that there hasn't been a major outside stress since the last Shadow War looks like the only reason they haven't had some other sort of civil war or major shift in the council. I think that's the impression you're meant to get. Only decorum and unwritten norms held it together, but as soon as serious disagreements arose between the castes, it imploded. If this were released today, I would take it for poorly disguised commentary on the US political system.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 14:53
|
|
|
Yeah, my read on the Minbari has always been "what if it turned out the Space Elves were actually morons?" They're constantly shown making rash, short-sighted, or just outright bad decisions while presenting a completely aloof appearance to outsiders, and it doesn't feel like that's poor writing or a mistake. A lot of the mysteries around the Minbari turn out to have really dumb or even just kind of racist answers, so I think the takeaway is supposed to be a really advanced civilization held together by a bunch of outdated concepts and duct tape, with the whole thing ready to just fall down under the slightest stress. I mean they went collectively bonkers and launched a war of genocide over a single diplomatic incident edit- To add to this, I think it's actually a reasonable depiction for that kind of civilization. They're at the top of the heap when it comes to the "young" races and they've had the Vorlons whispering in their ears about their destiny for a thousand years. They don't want or need to interact with anyone else except for funsies and to fulfill their prophecies, so their culture and government don't really have any external stressors. It's the perfect recipe to create a civilization that looks wildly stable from the outside but that's actually becoming more and more brittle every day. Paradoxish fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Jul 6, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 15:20
|
|
|
Gyrotica posted:Well, we hate that that Marcus story exists. It's an imperfect universe. I like Marcus and his story. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 16:41
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:I like Marcus and his story. That post is referring (I’m pretty sure) to a specific short story about far future Marcus being revived out of Cryo and attempting to clone/resurrect Ivanova in turn. It’s… real bad.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 16:46
|
|
|
Paradoxish posted:Yeah, my read on the Minbari has always been "what if it turned out the Space Elves were actually morons?" Kind of parallel to how the Vorlons by TV convention would be completely right about everything and acting in humanity's best interests
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 16:56
|
|
|
Chevy Slyme posted:That post is referring (I’m pretty sure) to a specific short story about far That is correct - I enjoy the Marcus character. That short story is gross.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 17:09
|
|
|
I wish they'd done something more with how terrifying hyperspace is in B5. There were the bits about getting lost but it also looks like that. Freaky poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 17:13
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:It's somewhat futurized 80's Technoir. As in, you remember the club Technoir from The Terminator? That vibe taken a bit forward and with aliens. Yeah, that sounds spot on. The clothing choices are interesting too. If I'm remembering correctly, aliens have bunches of weird outfits, but human norms are pretty narrow and distinct. Mainstream humans generally wear more formal clothing than now (or the 90s) - notably all denim must have been destroyed during the Dilgar War - and ties and collared shirts have gone out of fashion. Men wear slacks and a buttoned, tucked shirt or shirt and jacket, women wear dresses/skirts and 'pantsuit' type outfits - aside from military and utility uniforms, women's clothes are distinctly different than men's clothes. You don't see women wearing men's style clothing or men wearing any kind of skirt, kilt, or robe. Hairstyles have a pretty narrow range of styles, you don't really see partially shaved heads, non-natural-colored dyed hair, streaks in hair, or other things that stand out. Garibaldi's later head shaving is unique to him, and IRL it was a trend that was just taking off in the 90s. (You do see things like robes on priests and technomages, and some people in down below have ragged cloaks, but they're clearly outside of normal human society. Rangers wear robes, but they're a half human/half Minbari organization). Originally I thought of it as just a distinct look that they adopted for the show, but I think the narrow, formal look is also a sign of the political climate on Earth. Paradoxish posted:They're constantly shown making rash, short-sighted, or just outright bad decisions while presenting a completely aloof appearance to outsiders, and it doesn't feel like that's poor writing or a mistake. A lot of the mysteries around the Minbari turn out to have really dumb or even just kind of racist answers, so I think the takeaway is supposed to be a really advanced civilization held together by a bunch of outdated concepts and duct tape, with the whole thing ready to just fall down under the slightest stress. I'm noticing that much more clearly on rewatch. I remember thinking they were 'not as good as advertised' back in the day, but this time around they don't even seem to be advertising that well. I think I was probably giving their 'ancient, wise race' schtick too much credit back then, and not doing enough 'who told you Minbari never lie?'. quote:I mean they went collectively bonkers and launched a war of genocide over a single diplomatic incident ... that they instigated!
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 17:39
|
|
|
Pantaloon Pontiff posted:... that they instigated! It was a gigantic overreaction, but from their POV earth did, completely unprovoked, blow up the spaceship containing their leader
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 17:54
|
|
|
Look, it's not their fault that humans were so primitive that they interpreted weapons-free sensor jamming as hostility! In all seriousness, though, it is a little shocking when the guys in the ironclad 360 noscope the President with a cannonball when he's sitting in the nuclear powered aircraft carrier's briefing room. Without killing anybody else important.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 19:15
|
|
|
Paradoxish posted:Yeah, my read on the Minbari has always been "what if it turned out the Space Elves were actually morons?" They are massively arrogant, have had total control of their own territory for 1000 years without meaningful challenge, and their society got completely reconstructed by Valen, who they tended to listen to because he actually did know what was going to happen. They're also incredibly insular, deeply factionalized, and perhaps in a post-scarcity society where people do jobs because they find them fulfilling in some way, but where caste structures will funnel most people into doing what their parents did unless they feel a strong motivation to switch. In that kind of system, the leadership will be made up of Minbari who enjoy politics, for the most part. That doesn't mean they're always toxic monsters, but it does fit into a pattern we see where the calm serenity of the Religious caste comes across as intrinsic to them but is actually mostly a front. My favorite example is when Lennier briefly goes aggro after being touched and says "do not think because we look like you that we are like you!" It suggests the flaw in the Vorlon philosophy, really, because there's a difference between "Who are you" being answered truthfully as opposed to all of the ritual, ceremony, and formality that Minbari culture layers onto everyone. Who the Minbari actually are and who they believe themselves to be (and who they are perceived by others to be) demonstrate fissures at least as great as those among humans. That gets underlined when Kosh insists on an inquisitor for Delenn. Who the Minbari say they are turns out to be built heavily on who others say they should be, and they are extremely dangerous if forced outside of those structures. Also, as befitting Space Elves, they are sufficiently lethal that the injunction on killing one another is clearly in place after too much killing of one another. As dangerous as Lord "words on a page" Refa may be to Centauri society, he's better accommodated than the head of the Military caste, Shakiri. The Centauri have plenty of tools in play to keep Refa in check (poison was always a favorite in the Old Republic), but the Minbari are nearly brought to destruction by Shakiri and it takes Delenn and Neroon working together to stop him. I think Londo's poison usage plays as an "of course," while the Starfire Wheel gets framed both as tradition and as ancient savagery that had been abandoned by the Minbari before Shakiri rolled back their traditions in the name of power. And even in that moment, the recourse is to older traditions: the Minbari are poor innovators, which explains why Delenn receives such grief despite her fulfilling prophecy. That was a potential underlying theme of Legend of the Rangers, had that gone to series.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 19:35
|
|
|
Qwertycoatl posted:It was a gigantic overreaction, but from their POV earth did, completely unprovoked, blow up the spaceship containing their leader No, they approached a ship with gun ports opened (first provocation) and used active scanners on the human ship that were strong enough to disable the human ship's scanners (escalating the provocation) right as the human ship was trying to figure out how to respond to the hostile actions. "It's my culture to approach with a drawn weapon" doesn't turn approaching someone not in your culture with a drawn weapon into a non-provocation. Their own leader realized how bad of an idea that was and tried to countermand the order, but didn't make it in time. Similarly, actively hitting ships with something strong enough to shut down their sensors is a provocation, even if you don't think about the effect of a strong active scan on someone else's ship. Modern ships on earth are aware that blasting their radar full strength at another ship is a provocation, the super-advanced Minbari should be too. I agree that aside from the now-dead leader they're too arrogant and stupid to *acknowledge* their role in starting the fight, but that doesn't change the fact that they are responsible for provoking it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:48
|
|
|
The Starfire Wheel seems to be based on some sort of very strong radiation, which is not a primitive technology. It says something for the savagery of the people that they were technologically advanced enough to build it, but still thought that it made sense to choose leaders based on who'd take the pain longer.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 22:34
|
|
|
Zorak of Michigan posted:The Starfire Wheel seems to be based on some sort of very strong radiation, which is not a primitive technology. It says something for the savagery of the people that they were technologically advanced enough to build it, but still thought that it made sense to choose leaders based on who'd take the pain longer. It's just a more sophisticated version of frying an ant by focusing sunlight on it. The CGI implies high-tech, but if memory serves there's a very Indiana-Jones-style grinding noise when the aperture opens wider and wider. I wasn't making a personal judgment on how "savage" the technology was, just suggesting that Delenn certainly saw this method of choosing leaders as savage, even if she was prepared to exploit it to discredit Shakiri. Fortunately, he had a good second career as a singer, known best for his music video of "Bones don't lie."
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2023 00:37
|
|
|
Narsham posted:The CGI implies high-tech, but if memory serves there's a very Indiana-Jones-style grinding noise when the aperture opens wider and wider. Look, it’s been a thousand years and they forgot the WD-40, whaddya gonna do?
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2023 00:40
|
|
|
sleeping in light is just going to wreck FSF, goddam
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2023 02:35
|
|
|
Narsham posted:They are massively arrogant, have had total control of their own territory for 1000 years without meaningful challenge, and their society got completely reconstructed by Valen, who they tended to listen to because he actually did know what was going to happen. They're also incredibly insular, deeply factionalized, and perhaps in a post-scarcity society where people do jobs because they find them fulfilling in some way, but where caste structures will funnel most people into doing what their parents did unless they feel a strong motivation to switch. In that kind of system, the leadership will be made up of Minbari who enjoy politics, for the most part. That doesn't mean they're always toxic monsters, but it does fit into a pattern we see where the calm serenity of the Religious caste comes across as intrinsic to them but is actually mostly a front. huh, that's a really good post ty
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2023 02:36
|
|
|
Pantaloon Pontiff posted:No, they approached a ship with gun ports opened (first provocation) and used active scanners on the human ship that were strong enough to disable the human ship's scanners (escalating the provocation) right as the human ship was trying to figure out how to respond to the hostile actions. "It's my culture to approach with a drawn weapon" doesn't turn approaching someone not in your culture with a drawn weapon into a non-provocation. Their own leader realized how bad of an idea that was and tried to countermand the order, but didn't make it in time. Similarly, actively hitting ships with something strong enough to shut down their sensors is a provocation, even if you don't think about the effect of a strong active scan on someone else's ship. Modern ships on earth are aware that blasting their radar full strength at another ship is a provocation, the super-advanced Minbari should be too. I do find it odd that if the Minbari traditionally greet everyone they meet with gun ports open, then why haven't, say the Centauri, encountered it in their rare and brief encounters with the Minbari? You would've thought that would be something that Londo would've mentioned when he was asked about the Minbari if he knew.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2023 09:18
|
|
|
Eighties ZomCom posted:I do find it odd that if the Minbari traditionally greet everyone they meet with gun ports open, then why haven't, say the Centauri, encountered it in their rare and brief encounters with the Minbari? You would've thought that would be something that Londo would've mentioned when he was asked about the Minbari if he knew. It's possible that everyone else is so used to it now that they don't think about it. And when they first met the Minbari they probably responded to the obviously much powerful alien vessel with a "please don't shoot, we're not hostile" message and got an explanation in reply. It's humans who did the South Park "it's coming right for us!" move and tried to get their retaliation in first.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2023 10:00
|
|
|
Centauri: troll_face.jpg I think that is just one of those 'sometimes history turns on extremely dumb accidents' things. Also minbari are arrogant dicks.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2023 10:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 05:49 |
|
|
I guess the other option is not to treat In the Beginning as 100% canonical but rather Londo fudging some details to make it easier to tell the story to the children. Hence why it's Londo who's the ambassador on Earth and it's Gkar who is the weapon dealer and so on. It may be possible that the Centauri ambassador wasn't asked those questions but it's Londo guessing how the meeting went.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2023 10:56
|
|