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quiggy posted:i think the term "classical roguelike" is probably ok for the strict berlin interpretation ascii roguelikes, in particular the big five (nethack/dcss/adom/angband/tome), but as for forming a strict rogulikiness axis where we try to place nethack and jupiter hell and shiren and slay the spire and spelunky and so on, who gives a gently caress Seems to me like there's way fewer berlin-approved roguelikes than non-approved. I say we flip the table on them and call those a subgenre of roguelikes
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Jul 5, 2023 15:31
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AnimeIsTrash posted:i like video games same
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Jul 5, 2023 15:58
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was a time you’d get probed for posting about vibeo games
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Jul 5, 2023 15:59
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goblin week posted:Seems to me like there's way fewer berlin-approved roguelikes than non-approved. I say we flip the table on them and call those a subgenre of roguelikes its because there is 0 reason to use ascii graphics nowadays unless you are weird enough to roll your own engine. the moment you crack open unity/godot you just kinda get graphics for free may as well get some crappy free icon packs and use em
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Jul 5, 2023 16:00
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Silver Alicorn posted:was a time you’d get probed for posting about vibeo games thats why this is the James thread 
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Jul 5, 2023 16:13
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AnimeIsTrash posted:people getting roguelites and rogue likes confused-_- the meta progression is stored in the brain
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Jul 5, 2023 16:47
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*thinking really hard* poker is a roguelike
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Jul 5, 2023 16:52
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obviously personal preferences are what they are but saying a game with metaprogression isn't a roguelike is loving dumb. quit gatekeeping video game genres like a big nerd
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Jul 5, 2023 16:53
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radical roguelike anarchy
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Jul 5, 2023 16:55
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fart simpson posted:*thinking really hard* real life is a roguelike per berlin: - randomly generated - permadeath - turn-based (planck time) - non-modal - emergent - resource management - hack and slash (capitalism) - unidentified items
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Jul 5, 2023 16:55
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it’s not a soulslike if it doesn’t have combat rolling and a stamina bar
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Jul 5, 2023 16:55
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real life isn't randomly generated, everyone plays the same dungeon
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Jul 5, 2023 16:57
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Armitag3 posted:it’s not a soulslike if it doesn’t have combat rolling and a stamina bar gmtk has a really good video entitled "do we need a soulslike genre" that includes this v good (imo) parody of the berlin interpretation 
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Jul 5, 2023 16:58
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i flip flop a bit on mark brown. on the one hand his videos seem well researched and all, but then again how much stock can you put into someone’s lectures when until very recently he hasn’t made a single game? seems all a bit armchair-y to me. i don’t know you tell me, you’re a game dev
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Jul 5, 2023 17:01
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i think the differentiation between rouge like and rouge lite being meta-progression is fine. its good enough to understand what people are talking about and you dont need a huge technical list of features
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Jul 5, 2023 17:01
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his vids are usually pretty good but a little basic, kind of a good crash course into design methodologies and such
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Jul 5, 2023 17:02
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Shaggar posted:i think the differentiation between rouge like and rouge lite being meta-progression is fine. its good enough to understand what people are talking about and you dont need a huge technical list of features this falls apart for me with stuff like shiren the wanderer though, which is very clearly a direct descendent of nethack but also includes some very light metaprogression elements (there's a few rare ways to store items for future runs, some side quests take multiple runs to complete, the most recent game has a very light item creation system that modifies the loot tables). do we really want to throw out the baby with the bathwater and claim it's not a True Roguelike because of this small handful of secondary features?
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Jul 5, 2023 17:04
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Shaggar posted:i think the differentiation between rouge like and rouge lite being meta-progression is fine. its good enough to understand what people are talking about and you dont need a huge technical list of features this mf said rouge
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Jul 5, 2023 17:22
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fart simpson posted:*thinking really hard* poker is a trading card roguelike soulsborne game
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Jul 5, 2023 17:23
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the new classic roguelike is Caves of Qud
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Jul 5, 2023 17:26
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idk what that is but all you roguelike classic fans will ike this game https://en.bandainamcoent.eu/elden-ring/elden-ring
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Jul 5, 2023 17:30
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Captain Foo posted:the new classic roguelike is Caves of Qud neo classical, maybe
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Jul 5, 2023 17:33
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quiggy posted:this falls apart for me with stuff like shiren the wanderer though, which is very clearly a direct descendent of nethack but also includes some very light metaprogression elements (there's a few rare ways to store items for future runs, some side quests take multiple runs to complete, the most recent game has a very light item creation system that modifies the loot tables). do we really want to throw out the baby with the bathwater and claim it's not a True Roguelike because of this small handful of secondary features? ive never heard of it but if its not a "true rogue like" who cares? the reason people like rogue lites more is they're generally better games. the meta-progression allows for more flexible gameplay elements that the player can have control over, whereas rogue-likes are way more dependent on randomness to the point that they become a hassle to play. AnimeIsTrash posted:this mf said rouge lol
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Jul 5, 2023 17:37
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AnimeIsTrash posted:idk what that is but all you roguelike classic fans will ike this game looks a bit too ubisofty for my tastes
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Jul 5, 2023 17:37
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matti posted:neo classical, maybe sure
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Jul 5, 2023 17:41
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quiggy posted:real life is a roguelike per berlin: why does germany get to define it
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Jul 5, 2023 17:44
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quiggy posted:real life is a roguelike per berlin: removing unidentified items this is a way better definition of roguelike than what berlin actually reads like. unidentified items are just dumb though, no game has actually done them well.
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Jul 5, 2023 17:54
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fart simpson posted:why does germany get to define it comedy answer go ask the germans, real answer because a bunch of turbonerds at the international roguelike development conference 2008 got together to build the definition and it was held in berlin
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Jul 5, 2023 17:57
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:removing unidentified items this is a way better definition of roguelike than what berlin actually reads like. unidentified items are just dumb though, no game has actually done them well. disagree, i think unidentified items as they exist in classical roguelikes are actually pretty interesting. you can still use the items without knowing what they are and good/knowledgeable players can often find ways of identifying certain kinds of items without either using them or using identify scrolls. it's when you bring them over to diabloland where it's a "click button to unwrap present" mechanic that it gets dumb
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Jul 5, 2023 17:59
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goblin week posted:looks a bit too ubisofty for my tastes its like assassins creed but with more stuff to do on the map
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Jul 5, 2023 18:01
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quiggy posted:disagree, i think unidentified items as they exist in classical roguelikes are actually pretty interesting. you can still use the items without knowing what they are and good/knowledgeable players can often find ways of identifying certain kinds of items without either using them or using identify scrolls. it's when you bring them over to diabloland where it's a "click button to unwrap present" mechanic that it gets dumb i heavily dislike the "knowledgeable" bit though, in that i find the encyclopedic knowledge of what to do with what a really limited gameplay mechanic. that's not to say that judging the unknowns is bad, but i've never seen this done in a way where it is not basically wiki bait. we can grab slay the spire there, where you're taking a guess at the future all the time, but outside runic dome (which i forgive easily as it is the singular thing in the game which echoes that kind of thing) there's nothing where you really get past by extremely specific and precise knowledge.
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Jul 5, 2023 18:04
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quiggy posted:disagree, i think unidentified items as they exist in classical roguelikes are actually pretty interesting. you can still use the items without knowing what they are and good/knowledgeable players can often find ways of identifying certain kinds of items without either using them or using identify scrolls. it's when you bring them over to diabloland where it's a "click button to unwrap present" mechanic that it gets dumb throwing unidentified potions at enemies to figure out wtf they are is a cool mechanic
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Jul 5, 2023 18:04
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matti posted:throwing unidentified potions at enemies to figure out wtf they are is a cool mechanic 
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Jul 5, 2023 18:08
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:i heavily dislike the "knowledgeable" bit though, in that i find the encyclopedic knowledge of what to do with what a really limited gameplay mechanic. that's not to say that judging the unknowns is bad, but i've never seen this done in a way where it is not basically wiki bait. using slay the spire as your example here feels off given how extremely important foreknowledge of the card pools/relic pools/events/fights are, especially at higher ascensions
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Jul 5, 2023 18:14
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the difference between rougelike and rougelite is that rougelike changes the CMYK values to remain close to rouge, while rougelite only changes the gamma value
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Jul 5, 2023 18:19
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quiggy posted:using slay the spire as your example here feels off given how extremely important foreknowledge of the card pools/relic pools/events/fights are, especially at higher ascensions hey, want to make it fair here as i do love my roguelikes. i specifically dislike the legacy rogue random-color potion though, with nethack being the most notorious example where there's extremely specific obviously-best identification procedures that you'd just memorize (either by playing 10k hours trying every interaction, or, more likely, by rote learning). slay the spire has a knowledgeability aspect, but it is *way* smoother, you'll naturally be shown all there is to see very quickly, and the game revolves around a lot of small choices none of which are catastrophic. e: and there runic dome is the example in that that is actually a relic that is good if you know by heart the action patterns of the enemies, which nothing else *requires* you to, but which is knowledge that tends to be somewhat useful to slowly accrue.
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Jul 5, 2023 18:21
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that's fair, and fwiw im also not a big fan of how nethack handles a lot of its mechanics
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Jul 5, 2023 18:23
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of the big five classical roguelikes i'm a dcss girl
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Jul 5, 2023 18:23
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nethack makes a lot more sense if you refrain from reading spoilers and treat it like a puzzle game like zork
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Jul 5, 2023 18:25
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2 more weeks till pikmin comes out
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Jul 5, 2023 18:32
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