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I'm more reminded of when Australian media tried to make a brouhaha about then Prime Minister Kevin Rudd having visited a strip club in New York, and the basically unanimous reaction of the public was 'Cool, so he's not a COMPLETE nerd after all!' But also more that the right wing media literally cannot get any more loud and angry than it already is, and leftists trying to talk about the hypocrisy would be shouted down as wanting to let Trump win.
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Jul 6, 2023 10:11
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Willa Rogers posted:I provided plenty of proof that it was executive-branch agencies pressuring companies to censor speech, not just Nadler & Schiff being assholes. But you haven't though, your own posted evidence states kind of the opposite of what you are saying? Like where is this secret tribunal? You posted about a congressman publicly saying they don't like a thing Facebook was doing and a org that was shut down after a few months that did nothing but ask Facebook to flag a few posts about anti-vax stuff. Willa Rogers posted:
Not it didn't, it came from agencies NOT saying anything about Hunter's laptop after Facebook decided to flag it on it's own, from the link you yourself posted. Are you reading your own sources?
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Jul 6, 2023 11:04
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Boris Galerkin posted:I’m lolling at CNN having to explain what a dime bag is. if anyone asks it's $40
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Jul 6, 2023 11:29
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Herstory Begins Now posted:if anyone asks it's $40 Man, dimes used to be $10. Inflation really is out of control.
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Jul 6, 2023 12:19
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:We’re gonna need a lot more stars if that’s the definition of a state. Yeah, he's a nice guy but has super weird ideas. Anti C19 vax for one. He thinks that "poverty is a state of mind" and that "I shouldn't do anything I don't want to do". I told him that my bank account and child support payments disagree with his mindset approach to personal finance and that next year I'm just not gonna pay taxes and see how that works out for me. But he honestly said it's my choice. He's like a Coen Brothers character.
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Jul 6, 2023 12:59
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Willa Rogers posted:Actually, it's proof that the government pressured private companies to censor information under the pretense that it was for the public good. The "the line between a request and a command is hazy" in the Reason article is really dumb, since it's clarified with a single question: "is this an order or a request?" and the government asking social media not to spread anti-vaccine nonsense in the middle of a pandemic is a good thing. It isn't "dictating", and equating asking Facebook not to spread covid misinformation to a Trump administration determining which speech about gender-affirming medical care is injurious is a wild stretch.
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Jul 6, 2023 13:43
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I'm sure everyone has heard at least some part of this already, but there's a really high likelihood that Teamsters at UPS are gonna strike on the first of August. Speaking to my union stewards and reps, things have not been going well in negotiations. There's the obvious air conditioning news bite that's gotten all over the place, and rightfully so; the infamous incident of a Brownie(UPS truck) driver dying in the back of his truck, supposedly it was over 125 degrees in there, and there is NO ventilation WHATSOEVER back there, he suffered heatstroke, passed out, and cooked to death. Not only is it bad for the person, it's bad for the packages! I think that was probably the instigating incident to push for better air circulation. but the people at the top of UPS corporate are straight psychos, you CANNOT be a building manager or higher without being a total self-serving sociopath. this sounds ridiculous, but the sheer callousness I have witnessed over the years even from a basic building manager let alone the guys who show up in armanis and polished shoes to walk around the filth factory that is a UPS hub, it's really misanthropy-inducing. I'm always thankful the union is there to mitigate some of their bullshit, but they are CONSTANTLY trying to push the envelope. The contract negotiations are extremely turbulent because the new union head, Sean O'Brian(who is a legit awesome dude who has personally helped me out in the past when he had no need to personally intervene) ousted the long-incumbent James P. Hoffa, son of the infamously-disappeared Jimmy Hoffa, who was very clearly corrupt and in bed with UPS corporate and forced through using a technicality one of the worst UPS contracts ever 5 years ago. So the teamsters said gently caress off and voted him out in a huge upset, getting Sean on board, and Sean said he is going to play hardball because UPS has been making money hand over fist and has not put any of it into improving working conditions, pay, hiring rates, better full time position contracts, etc at all. anyways, if a strike goes for longer than a week it's probably going to have seriously harmful ramifications for the economy. there is absolutely no way USPS or Fedex can take on the daily volume that UPS is currently handling on top of their own volume, so if it lasts more than a couple days poo poo's gonna get real ugly. This isn't 1997, the shipping industry is significantly larger than it was then. when I started, my building would do usually around 90k packages on my primary shift. now, it does an easy 135-140k, with less people. the attitude in the building I work in is loving dire, nobody is happy, it's miserably hot and humid with woefully little air circulation and sparsely placed fans, staffing is in the gutter, and if you've paid attention at all to the goings-on around the contract, you probably heard 97% of Teamsters who voted, voted to strike if the contract is not put through by august 1st. that is an absurd number. you cannot get 97% of people to agree the sky is blue. I've never seen general worker morale this vitriolic when it comes to the company itself. there's always exceptions, but often those are the guys who are max seniority, making top rate while doing the easiest jobs in the buildings or whatever, truck drivers for feeders, etc. generally ladder-pullers, there's always some of them. I'm actually curious what will happen on July 31st's midnight shift if there's a strike. Will they wait for the shift to be over before shutting everything down, or will they basically cut the power the moment we hit midnight rolling over to August 1st? Gotta ask my steward, he's been around since before the last strike so I'm sure he knows.
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Jul 6, 2023 13:52
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Can Pinkerton Joe stop Teamsters from striking like he did the railworkers?
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Jul 6, 2023 13:54
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Lib and let die posted:Can Pinkerton Joe stop Teamsters from striking like he did the railworkers? No. Railroads have special rules that govern them from the 1800's that give the government much stronger control over them. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Jul 6, 2023 |
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Jul 6, 2023 13:56
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"Government censorship is good actually" is certainly a precedent that will never come back to bite us. Worry not, friends.
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Jul 6, 2023 14:01
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Four Dollars posted:"Government censorship is good actually" is certainly a precedent that will never come back to bite us. Worry not, friends. Who's making that argument? All I've seen here is substantial disagreement about how expansive the definition of "censorship" should be.
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Jul 6, 2023 14:04
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Lib and let die posted:Can Pinkerton Joe stop Teamsters from striking like he did the railworkers? Worked out well for everyone involved, so lets hope so!
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Jul 6, 2023 14:05
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Four Dollars posted:"Government censorship is good actually" is certainly a precedent that will never come back to bite us. Worry not, friends. I think most of the posts seem to be using definitions that censorship is bad by definition, but doing good things (combatting anti vaccine statements) with coercion cannot be censorship because it is good. It seems more like a definitional argument than anything else. That includes whether the definition of censorship includes coercion, asking in public, or anything else. Surely the definition is more expansive than someone working with the government redacting letters home from the front lines in world war 2, but I think it's clear the modern definition is unclear. Ergo, is censorship only done by the actual party controlling the statement itself? So possessing the letter, or storing the post on the server? But asking/demanding/threatening to have the statement removed isn't censorship because it isn't directly in the government's control/possession? I have no idea. trevorreznik fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Jul 6, 2023 |
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Jul 6, 2023 14:15
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Main Paineframe posted:Who's making that argument? All I've seen here is substantial disagreement about how expansive the definition of "censorship" should be. Thanks for asking! Hieronymous Alloy posted:I think the government probably should have done a lot more to ask Facebook and Twitter to censor anti-vaxx bullshit. FlamingLiberal posted:After reading those excerpts from the lawsuit, the government should have done more to censor these grifters.
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Jul 6, 2023 14:15
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Colloquially adopting the language of the whiner to indicate the whiner should gently caress off is not the same as actual support for the whiner's hyperbolically claimed enemy, mostly because said enemy is a figment of the whiner's imagination. Or more succinctly, they aren't supporting censorship because there wasn't actually any to support
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Jul 6, 2023 14:22
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It doesn't really matter because there is a 0.0001% chance that Mike Pence wins the primary, but he explicitly came out and endorsed the idea that you need to raise taxes on the bottom 50% and cut them for "the rich" that most Republicans are smart enough to cloak a little. He took the Mitt Romney position (roughly half of Americans pay no federal income tax - this is bad and they need to pay some taxes to get skin in the game to get them excited about tax cuts) and combined it with "I don’t really buy into the rich need to pay their fair share." I don't think this is even an especially popular position among the Republican base. He is definitely not running for a VP slot, so it becomes even more confusing why he decided to end his career this way. https://twitter.com/American_Bridge/status/1676643909391228950
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Jul 6, 2023 14:30
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Trevorrrrrrrrrrrrr posted:Worked out well for everyone involved, so lets hope so! Which Local are you a member of?
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Jul 6, 2023 14:33
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Four Dollars posted:Thanks for asking! "Get your gubbmint hands off my body! Freedom of Speech! First Amendent! Censorshipsss!" I shout, desperately guzzling horse dewormer because an internet grifter convinced me it was better than a vaccine False advertising is an actual crime. Yes, the government can, and should, censor criminal speech. The FDA is a good idea actually and anti-vaxx bullshit is bad and gets people killed. DeadlyMuffin posted:
Everything the Trump administration did with every branch of government was horrible, but that doesn't mean "gubbmint bad" or that we have to legalize mercury pills because heaven forbid the government prohibit selling them as headache medicine. This poo poo is libertarian-level stupid. Oh no the evil government is censoring my right to tell people to take horse pills instead of vaccines, what tyrrany will the evil gubmint wreak next upon our freeeeeeedoooommsss If I want to inject my kids full of colloidal silver that's my right as an american, how dare you tell me I can't tell everybody else to do that too Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Jul 6, 2023 |
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Jul 6, 2023 14:44
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:False advertising is an actual crime. Yes, the government can, and should, censor criminal speech. Even when the government at the time or place decides that discussing or providing gender-affirming care is "criminal speech"? Or when it decides to ban certain books from being in schools & libraries? That's short-sighted thinking; the First is our friend, not our enemy. We're not talking about people selling bottles of ivermectin; we're talking about people talking about ivermectin which, believe it or not, is protected speech as much as talking about gender-affirming care is protected speech. Further, as I mentioned, the government was monitoring & censoring "mal" information: what they consider to be factual information but that had the effect of undermining something they were doing & saying. The judge's ruling was a correct one, and I think once the case is appealed & wends through higher courts we will see even liberal judges agree with it.
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Jul 6, 2023 14:57
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Willa Rogers posted:The cocaine story has changed a bit, which is why you might have trouble finding definitive news. Why are you being so disingenuous with your phrasing? The area in the West Wing it was found in was still an area to which the public has access, and a heavily trafficked one at that, as the story you posted outright states clearly. quote:Jean-Pierre pointed out that President Joe Biden and his family were not at the White House over the holiday weekend when the substance was reportedly found. According to multiple media reports, the discovery of an unknown white substance prompted a brief evacuation. A preliminary test later found that substance to be cocaine. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 6, 2023 14:59
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Willa Rogers posted:Even when the government at the time or place decides that discussing or providing gender-affirming care is "criminal speech"? Or when it decides to ban certain books from being in schools & libraries? Do you believe that the Food and Drug Administration is a good idea or a bad one? Do you think people should be able to sell mercury tablets in grocery stores and label them as safe for kids? Because that poo poo happened before the FDA came along. A bad administration is going to misuse any government power, including the power to force accurate drug labeling and prevent false advertising. That doesn't mean laws against false advertising are a bad idea, it means Trump was a bad idea. Literally any power you give the government you can rebut by "but what if Trump could do that?" because Trump abuses powers that's his whole thing. End of the day though that's just the libertarian argument against government existing. The rebuttal is don't let evil people like Trump run your government, not abolishing government. Willa Rogers posted:
The people talking about ivermectin were generally the same people who were selling the ivermectin, or people who had been fooled or tricked by those people. The misinformation wasn't spread innocently. False advertising law hasn't really caught up to the social media / viral-marketing age and there's a need for reform and yes that reform will have to be nuanced. But the core idea of the government telling people not to say that poo poo is not inherently awful. We probably do want the government to have the power to shut down, or at least the power to request that media outlets discourage, false narratives that are getting people killed, and the ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine hoaxes definitely got people killed. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Jul 6, 2023 |
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Jul 6, 2023 15:02
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Do you believe that the Food and Drug Administration is a good idea or a bad one? Do you think people should be able to sell mercury tablets in grocery stores and label them as safe for kids? Because that poo poo happened before the FDA came along. I'm not sure you're reading my posts, because I specifically mention--and italicized to stress--that I'm referencing what people are discussing, not what’s they're selling. [eta after your edit: The government's definition of speech that was harmful enough to censor was so broad that it included people talking about their own experiences with vaccine side effects.] Do you have a plan to depose DeSantis from his governorship, or even think that it's possible? Because we don't have to wait for a Trump reelection to see what happens when your enemies are the ones deciding which speech is appropriate and which speech is "criminal." Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Jul 6, 2023 |
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Jul 6, 2023 15:04
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It doesn't really matter because there is a 0.0001% chance that Mike Pence wins the primary, but he explicitly came out and endorsed the idea that you need to raise taxes on the bottom 50% and cut them for "the rich" that most Republicans are smart enough to cloak a little. Well the position is coming from that apostate Mike Pence so the red-voting base of the country will consider the idea something they need to oppose for the duration of the next Tweet and take the opposite rhetorical position. Get it coming out of the mouth of someone who is still in the cult's good graces and social media will light up within the hour then we'll be arguing with Fox propaganda about it inside a day. Everyone will be forced to make it a topic of conversation because propaganda works, it will become a culture war issue, battle lines will be drawn, and Bob's your uncle.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:05
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Oracle posted:Why are you being so disingenuous with your phrasing? The area in the West Wing it was found in was still an area to which the public has access, and a heavily trafficked one at that, as the story you posted outright states clearly. That's why I posted the story, to clear up the initial confusion from early reports. I found the Insider story after I wrote the first part & thought it clarified the matter. eta: Why would I post a news story countering the initial claims if I weren't countering the initial claims by doing so?  I even pointed out that I was editing my post to add clarification.
Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Jul 6, 2023 |
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Jul 6, 2023 15:12
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Part of the reason we are where we are as a society right now is because we almost completely deregulated the supplement industry in the late 1990s and I’m not even making a joke
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Jul 6, 2023 15:12
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If we just redefine “pressuring” to mean “asking,” and “ordering” to mean “pressuring,” then the government absolutely ordered social media sites to take down content and violated the first amendment. Sadly words continue to mean things. I don’t know, personally I think it’s… kind of good, that if a private company or individual is doing something that is loving up society, the government can say “hey, stop doing that or we’ll make you.” It’s “coercion” in a technical sense but it’s also pretty much exactly what the government is for. It’s also funny to talk about these actions that almost certainly saved tens of thousands of lives as some abstract exercise in government ethics. I’m sure nobody would have had a problem with the government letting misinformation run rampant and endanger countless people, and then asked why they didn’t do anything say “hey there’s a first amendment and we thought it would be mean to ask.” Willa Rogers posted:The judge's ruling was a correct one, Willa Rogers posted:Do you have a plan to depose DeSantis from his governorship, or even think that it's possible? Because we don't have to wait for a Trump reelection to see what happens when your enemies are the ones deciding which speech is appropriate and which speech is "criminal." Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Jul 6, 2023 |
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Jul 6, 2023 15:14
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Willa Rogers posted:
DeSantis is also gonna do evil poo poo anyway, regardless of the Constitution or any other law. What we shouldn't do is abandon the idea that government can take concrete action to help and protect people. If we abandon that, we've bought into the lolbertarian "gubbmint always bad" framing and people don't have a reason to vote against DeSantis and his ilk. If there's ever going to be an active powerful Left in this country ever again, we absolutely must have a powerful government that actively helps people and protects them.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:14
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FlamingLiberal posted:Part of the reason we are where we are as a society right now is because we almost completely deregulated the supplement industry in the late 1990s and I’m not even making a joke Again, I'm not talking about commerce, which the government should & does regulate; I'm talking about protected speech. Let me know if you're still confused about the difference & I'm sure I could find some constitutional law that explains this.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:14
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Four Dollars posted:"Government censorship is good actually" is certainly a precedent that will never come back to bite us. Worry not, friends. Good thing that's not even remotely close to what's happening, then! Twitter and Facebook are private companies, they are not arms of the government. They pay for the servers and the upkeep of the service their users... use. They are allowed to put terms and conditions for use of their service in place, and they are allowed to remove content which violates those terms. That is not a violation of the First Amendment any more than it would be if I walked into your home preaching bullshit and you asked me to leave - your home is not a public space. There is nothing illegal about people who happen to work for the government reporting posts to Twitter/Facebook. There is nothing illegal about people who DO NOT work for the government reporting posts to Twitter/Facebook - there's no difference. It's those companies which respond to the report and decide if the content is a violation of their terms of service.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:24
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It wasn't just "people working for the government reporting posts" though: It was coordinated federal agency working groups having a pipeline to censor speech they considered harmful or undermining with no transparency or oversight. Sometimes the media people in charge told them to take a hike (as when Schiff tried to get mean things about him taken down); more often they acceded to the government agencies' demands.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:29
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https://twitter.com/katie_honan/status/1676957361364422663 God Eric Adams is such a psycho. People used to wonder back in the day "Who would even be the Democratic version of Trump" and here he is. This press release all but confirms it https://twitter.com/nick_garber/status/1676961348960550915 zoux fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Jul 6, 2023 |
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Jul 6, 2023 15:33
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Willa Rogers posted:It wasn't just "people working for the government reporting posts" though: It was coordinated federal agency working groups having a pipeline to censor speech they considered harmful or undermining with no transparency or oversight. If you’re going to say it’s not a specific thing, then it’s not really fair to turn around and say it was a general thing without going into the specifics. Do you consider the government having a team that went onto social media and reported things that broke the websites TOS as being censorship? Your second point, that the social media companies didn’t always do what the government wanted, really goes a long way to show how much it wasn’t censorship, and they weren’t really demands.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:34
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Willa Rogers posted:Sometimes the media people in charge told them to take a hike Yeah that’s not government censorship.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:34
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If someone else is making the decision that actually would be oversight wouldn't it? Certainly isn't the government unilaterally censoring anybody.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:34
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Willa Rogers posted:I'm not sure you're reading my posts, because I specifically mention--and italicized to stress--that I'm referencing what people are discussing, not what’s they're selling. [eta after your edit: The government's definition of speech that was harmful enough to censor was so broad that it included people talking about their own experiences with vaccine side effects.] Where is the evidence that any government health or election authorities punished or threatened social media/private actors for misinformation?
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Jul 6, 2023 15:42
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yronic heroism posted:Where is the evidence that any government health or election authorities punished or threatened social media/private actors for misinformation? I was responding to HA's contention that the censorship was good bc the information was "criminal"; hence my putting the word "criminal" in quotes.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:47
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Top tier willa bit. 🗿 Pence's performative self immolation to protest the death of small c conservative politics will never stop being funny. Openly coming out as having terrible economic policies bird food bathtub posted:Well the position is coming from that apostate Mike Pence so the red-voting base of the country will consider the idea something they need to oppose for the duration of the next Tweet and take the opposite rhetorical position. Even the Maga don't care what Pence thinks. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 6, 2023 15:52
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Willa Rogers posted:I was responding to HA's contention that the censorship was good bc the information was "criminal"; hence my putting the word "criminal" in quotes. Do you think the government pressuring—not “forcing,” “mandating,” or “coercing”—social media companies to limit the spread of scientific disinformation, specifically with regard to health issues that may affect others (ie, vaccines), is a bad thing?
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Jul 6, 2023 15:54
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From the latest yougov survey, in context of voters' financial situations:
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Jul 6, 2023 15:55
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Judgy Fucker posted:Do you think the government pressuring—not “forcing,” “mandating,” or “coercing”—social media companies to limit the spread of scientific disinformation, specifically with regard to health issues that may affect others (ie, vaccines), is a bad thing? Yes, and especially when it's not done transparently nor publicly.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:55
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