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This cutscene (and every other pre-rendered cutscene from here on out) is unchanged except for fixes that allow it to play in modern resolutions. Nice as it would have been for Warcraft Three: Reforged to give every cutscene to the Blizzard “Why haven’t they made a movie (no not that one)” CG animation team, I understand that those things are pricy and time consuming on a much bigger scale than touching up graphics and models.
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Jul 6, 2023 16:05
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So, shall we start counting and ranking Medivh's warning? So far: Vague, but targets listen 'cause magic - 1. Vague rambling madman - 1. Shall he find a new shtick? Shall he retread old ground? Find out in the next part of "why can't you just talk like normal"! (aside - Cythereal, are the "thought on ship design" to not be included in OP?)
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Jul 6, 2023 16:12
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Did Terenas ever meet Medivh way back when before all the troubles? You'd think the Dalaran rep would at least recognize the guy wielding Medivh's legendary staff and taking his iconic crow form. I know he's been dead for a while, but surely someone there remembers those details.
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Jul 6, 2023 16:14
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Qwertycoatl posted:I think it's partly because they just wanted to make a short cutscene to set the tone. There are ways to make Medivh feel sane and keep things hidden from the player. He could start launching into a speech about what is coming, and then we fade out and cut to various advisors and folks bickering and debating, with some flashes of evidence and things happening in the countryside (show scenes of peasants falling ill from the aforementioned plague, infernals falling from the sky like in the intro cutscene, etc.), and then we fade out to Medivh leaving and doing his drama queen bullshit. The player gets a teaser without knowing explicitly what is coming, and Medivh comes off as someone who isn't a nutjob and genuinely tried to provide evidence to folks who rejected him for various (mostly good!) reasons. Hell, you can even go back to the king's reaction after he leaves and have him talk about how he needs to protect his people at home first, maybe some pithy line about how they weathered the first two storms, and they can weather this one as well.
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Jul 6, 2023 16:24
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Lord_Magmar posted:Also for what it's worth, Terenas is generally remembered as a really good king brought low by circumstances outside his control who did his best. Yeah, for those unaware this is the in-setting consensus on the dude. He made some bad calls when handling a crisis unprecedented in human history, but he made those calls based on sound reasoning and the facts available to him at the time. He was a good dude who did as good a job as anyone could have been reasonably expected to, and it simply wasn't enough. Only one nation or organization on Azeroth ever beat the Scourge in open battle when the Scourge went in fully intending to win, and that was the kingdom of Gilneas - and what it took for Gilneas to take the Scourge head on and win caused no small amount of trouble for them down the road.
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Jul 6, 2023 16:30
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Cythereal posted:Yeah, for those unaware this is the in-setting consensus on the dude. He made some bad calls when handling a crisis unprecedented in human history, but he made those calls based on sound reasoning and the facts available to him at the time. He was a good dude who did as good a job as anyone could have been reasonably expected to, and it simply wasn't enough. I'm also not entirely sure I'd call the end results of what Gilneas did "winning", so much as not losing.
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Jul 6, 2023 16:53
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Lord_Magmar posted:I'm also not entirely sure I'd call the end results of what Gilneas did "winning", so much as not losing. I mean they did beat the Scourge. It was just the cost of doing so that did them in.
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Jul 6, 2023 17:00
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BisbyWorl posted:I mean they did beat the Scourge. Even then they might have recovered had the Horde not invaded, and then used WMDs when it turned into Vietnam where the Viet Cong are werewolves. Greymane and the Gilneans are assholes in a lot of ways, but they absolutely backed up their arrogant behavior with results. It took a lot to finally humble them. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Jul 6, 2023 |
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Jul 6, 2023 17:05
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BisbyWorl posted:I mean they did beat the Scourge. They hid behind a wall in the end. Barred the gates and left everyone else to their fates. Which is more my point, their victory was hiding behind a wall as the world collapsed. Although I did forget the Worgen came from the moment they sallied forth to shatter the Scourge's attempted invasion. So I'll concede that it was more of a victory than I remembered. In my head it was the other way around, Worgen then closing the wall. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jul 6, 2023 |
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Jul 6, 2023 17:26
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When did Gilneas' battle with the Scourge happen? Because if it's sometime during or after the events of The Frozen Throne, then they were fighting a weakened Scourge that had been split into three waring factions.
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Jul 6, 2023 17:44
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Rhonne posted:When did Gilneas' battle with the Scourge happen? Because if it's sometime during or after the events of The Frozen Throne, then they were fighting a weakened Scourge that had been split into three waring factions. Apparently it was 'at the peak of the Scourge's strength', so presumably during RoC.
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Jul 6, 2023 17:48
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ApplesandOranges posted:Apparently it was 'at the peak of the Scourge's strength', so presumably during RoC. That would honestly be between RoC and Frozen Throne if anything.
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Jul 6, 2023 17:49
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Rhonne posted:When did Gilneas' battle with the Scourge happen? Because if it's sometime during or after the events of The Frozen Throne, then they were fighting a weakened Scourge that had been split into three waring factions. I'm at work so I can't check, but IIRC it happened around the time of the orc and night elf campaigns in Reign of Chaos. The Scourge forces that weren't sent to Kalimdor continued south into the Eastern Kingdoms, overwhelming Stromgarde before being halted decisively at Gilneas.
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Jul 6, 2023 17:52
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Is there enough information about that to to a lore post about it? It sounds interesting. When appropriate obviously.
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Jul 6, 2023 17:53
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Cythereal posted:I'm at work so I can't check, but IIRC it happened around the time of the orc and night elf campaigns in Reign of Chaos. The Scourge forces that weren't sent to Kalimdor continued south into the Eastern Kingdoms, overwhelming Stromgarde before being halted decisively at Gilneas. Ah, I see, still not their entire army, or most of their heavy hitters, but not actively sabotaging each other yet. Well, except for Arthas doing his thing.
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Jul 6, 2023 17:54
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life_source posted:Is there enough information about that to to a lore post about it? It sounds interesting. When appropriate obviously. Not really. The Scourge attacked the Greymane wall, the Gilneans sallied out, and it might have failed had the Gilneans not unleashed their werewolves. The battle itself has never been discussed in any detail as far as I know, in-story it's mainly important for being where the werewolf issue started getting out of control.
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Jul 6, 2023 17:55
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Szarrukin posted:How much did Alliance knew about undead and necromancers before Third War besides "yeah, they exist"? Were they a serious problem in Lordaeron before WC3 or Scourge threat came out of nowhere? The manual has more on it, but the short version is this is very new even if the idea is old. All the Scourge poo poo isn't the result of some thousand-year-old cabal (at least, not one in the world of Azeroth itself) but a fairly recent creation in the years since the end of WC2, much as the corruption of the orcs was relatively recent before the start of WC1. A lot about this is completely unprecedented as far as the human kingdoms are concerned.
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Jul 6, 2023 18:42
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Qwertycoatl posted:For Medivh to present a convincing case, he's have to say what the actual threat is (which the writers would rather not reveal at this point), and how he knows and why he's credible (a lot of words that nobody will care about at the start of the game, especially if they haven't played or forgot about the previous games). Dirk the Average posted:There are ways to make Medivh feel sane and keep things hidden from the player. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Jul 6, 2023 |
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Jul 6, 2023 19:28
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Honestly I’d believe that the reason why Terenas isn’t viewed badly is because any information he was given about the threats is vague as gently caress. Dalaran doesn’t know what the plague was and have any real useful information about it, and Medivh doesn’t feel like he was really trying sincerely at all.
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Jul 6, 2023 19:32
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Discord reminded me. Just in case anyone's tempted to discuss the Culling: DON'T. There will be a lore post discussing how that particular event has been viewed and discussed in and out of setting when I reach the mission in question.
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Jul 6, 2023 19:35
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Honestly I don't get the impression Medivh is meant to look like a sane and competent negotiator. He's a rambling old man telling portents of doom. I don't think Medivh was ever presented as a suave or persuasive diplomat even when he was alive; now that he's actually got something important to convince people of but doesn't have social status or prodigious magic skills on his side he's floundering. He's also a messy bitch and a drama queen, which isn't helping his case either.
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Jul 6, 2023 19:38
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Tenebrais posted:Honestly I don't get the impression Medivh is meant to look like a sane and competent negotiator. He's a rambling old man telling portents of doom. I don't think Medivh was ever presented as a suave or persuasive diplomat even when he was alive; now that he's actually got something important to convince people of but doesn't have social status or prodigious magic skills on his side he's floundering. Medivh was actually at least extremely good at hosting parties, but that was before the issues with Sargeras really set in.
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Jul 6, 2023 19:39
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I don't mind the cutscene here -- Medivh is basically here to have a cool scene, set the states and set the plot in motion. I doubt there was too much thought put into the greater story at this point beyond that.
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Jul 6, 2023 19:43
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Feldegast42 posted:I don't mind the cutscene here -- Medivh is basically here to have a cool scene, set the states and set the plot in motion. I doubt there was too much thought put into the greater story at this point beyond that. There absolutely wasn't, but it's still fun to look at it critically and laugh at what a buffoon medivh comes off as with later knowledge.
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Jul 6, 2023 19:59
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Cythereal posted:Discord reminded me. So we can talk about it after the mission in question?
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Jul 6, 2023 20:16
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ChaosDragon posted:So we can talk about it after the mission in question? Yes, of course. I'm just issuing a preemptive warning to not turn the conversation in that direction ahead of time.
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Jul 6, 2023 20:17
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Yeah I'm willing to wait to cross that bridge when we get there. As is, I'm very much looking forward to discussing the gameplay in more depth now that the tutorial is over. A lot of the pieces that made Warcraft 3 such an absolute blast in custom maps are seen as early as the first mission, and I'll be able to chime in a little bit how various units stack in actual competitive as they come up too.
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Jul 6, 2023 20:22
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Keldulas posted:Honestly I’d believe that the reason why Terenas isn’t viewed badly is because any information he was given about the threats is vague as gently caress. Dalaran doesn’t know what the plague was and have any real useful information about it, and Medivh doesn’t feel like he was really trying sincerely at all. Also, no one could have predicted his rule ending the way it did. It's hard to hold a grudge against the guy after that happened to him.
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Jul 6, 2023 20:26
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idk I think raising your son to be an arrogant prick because of some prophecy or whatever it was is a pretty bad black mark. We'll get there when we get there but Terenas' lackluster parenting is a major part of why everything goes to poo poo in the way it does, it's just not something the writers think is important to address with the themes of the writing.
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Jul 7, 2023 03:43
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Fajita Queen posted:idk I think raising your son to be an arrogant prick because of some prophecy or whatever it was is a pretty bad black mark. Like many important character details and some crucial plot points, I assume this is all from some terrible novel or another, in this case many years after the fact. Terenas' relationship with his son (or the very existence of his daughter or dead wife) doesn't come up at all in War3. He's barely even a character in this game, for that matter.
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Jul 7, 2023 04:13
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Mr. Baps posted:Like many important character details and some crucial plot points, I assume this is all from some terrible novel or another, in this case many years after the fact. Terenas' relationship with his son (or the very existence of his daughter or dead wife) doesn't come up at all in War3. He's barely even a character in this game, for that matter. are you thinking of a different character teranas menethil's son is in this game
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Jul 7, 2023 05:29
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The point is more that Terenas has basically no screentime, so his relationships with ANYONE else aren't really established.
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Jul 7, 2023 05:34
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Keldulas posted:The point is more that Terenas has basically no screentime, so his relationships with ANYONE else aren't really established. This is what I meant, yeah. Virtually everything about Terenas other than "beloved old king" is all from sources that were written years after Warcraft 3. I don't know if he even canonically had a daughter until she was mentioned in WoW, and knowing Blizzard I'd be a little bit surprised if his dead wife even had a name until sometime during WoW as well. At best, the women of the Menethil family might have been mentioned briefly in the WC3 manual. Mr. Baps fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Jul 7, 2023 |
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Jul 7, 2023 06:24
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As a kid, I was absolutely going "nooo old-rear end king you FOOL, obviously the weird wizard is right, now bad poo poo is going to happen  " and didn't consider the context of what Medivh was doing there at all. The scene was written for and maybe by people who don't examine things critically, like most of the game, and it works quite well on surface level imoStill of course fun to revisit with context. Oh, also I never played or heard anything about WC1+2 so the wizard going "I'm Medivh!!!" later made me go "okay, and"
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Jul 7, 2023 09:28
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Mr. Baps posted:This is what I meant, yeah. Virtually everything about Terenas other than "beloved old king" is all from sources that were written years after Warcraft 3. I don't know if he even canonically had a daughter until she was mentioned in WoW, and knowing Blizzard I'd be a little bit surprised if his dead wife even had a name until sometime during WoW as well. At best, the women of the Menethil family might have been mentioned briefly in the WC3 manual. Terenas' daughter was mentioned (and named) in the Day of the Dragon novel, which was published between WC2 and WC3. Admittedly his characterization in that novel is skewed because virtually every noble was magically charmed by Prestor. (Incidentally, Cyth, any plans to cover the novels and other media? I can cover most of them up to about the end of MoP as supplementary material as relevant.) ApplesandOranges fucked around with this message at 11:26 on Jul 7, 2023 |
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Jul 7, 2023 11:05
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Medivh might've been coming from a position where the Guardian taking thirty seconds off their super important apocalypse-preventing work to deliver some basic instructions along the lines of "big stuff happening in the background, I need all of you to pack your poo poo and get on a boat, quick" would've been seen as an immediate cause to action. Aegwynn's name used to carry enough weight that she could return from being missing for centuries, hand king Landen Wrynn a baby with the news that she had seduced his court mage and got him to sire her heir for Guardian reasons, his name's Medivh, he's to be raised in Stormwind under the tutelage of his dad, that he will be the new Guardian once he's an adult, and have those orders to be followed without questions. Medivh's problem here is that the office of the Guardian has lost a lot of it's standing since the time his mother magically imprinted all knowledge of his job into his mind, and all of that happened while he was in a coma and/or possessed so he might not have internalized that he can't roll up to monarchs and tell them what to do any more.
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Jul 7, 2023 11:34
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The first time I played the game, knowing nothing about the previous ones aside from "it's orcs against humans", I thought that birdman was being a useless cryptic rear end in a top hat, we are now as many as a few decades later and I realize that I was right.
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Jul 7, 2023 11:46
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He's also not identifying himself as the Guardian, which doesn't help, and probably wouldn't help even if he did, because the last memory anyone had of the Guardian was "time to gently caress up reality lmao."
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Jul 7, 2023 11:46
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Asehujiko posted:Medivh might've been coming from a position where the Guardian taking thirty seconds off their super important apocalypse-preventing work to deliver some basic instructions along the lines of "big stuff happening in the background, I need all of you to pack your poo poo and get on a boat, quick" would've been seen as an immediate cause to action. Aegywnn was still 'well known' (well, to anyone who knew about the Guardian), she was still actively stopping demons throughout her career until she passed on her power to Medivh. Knowledge of the Guardian was still 'hush-hush', as far as we know, only the king's direct line, Lothar, and the upper circle of the Kirin Tor knew about its existence. Even the Guardian's apprentices didn't know they were apprenticing to the Guardian until the time came to officially select one of them to be the next one. That said, he could have just as easily revealed himself proper to Antonidas, who would have likely took him seriously if he told him the full story.
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Jul 7, 2023 11:48
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ApplesandOranges posted:That said, he could have just as easily revealed himself proper to Antonidas, who would have likely took him seriously if he told him the full story. Let's put a pin in this because we can definitely talk about it later.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:57
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