Warhammer: After 18 years, finally an end

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Deptfordx: Dec 23, 2013

Telsa Cola posted:

Havent read it yet, but given that he's kinda being presented as super bad rear end questing knight who is soloing big evils that's pretty bad.

But to be honest that's kinda been an issue since Gulliman came back. EVERYTHING that knows about primarchs should absolutely be making GBS threads themselves when one walks in (okay maybe not Orks or Nids). Chaos space marines should be going "Oh gently caress", traitor guard should be questioning their faith and going through poo poo as much as a loyalist guard would if a chaos daemon prince or greater daemon showed up.

Imperial soldiers should faint or go through bouts of religious spasm ( to the disgust of the primarch). The presence of one in a system should have people making pilgrimages to see them.

These are people who are essentially superweapons/supersoldiers on a galactic scale and they get treated as basically slightly cooler chapter masters. Plain old space marines are religious icons, primarchs should be seen as a step or two above Imperial saints.

Yeah I had similar complaints about Kymes The Iron Kingdom. Literal Crusade despatched by the Emperors Son reborn accompanied by a Custodes, those who stand at the right hand........etc, etc.

Everyone where they arrive, treats it like another Imperial force rolling up and the Governor is able to rebel, including murdering the Custodes, and no-one on her side seems to give a drat about what should be horrifically blasphemous.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 22:39

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# ? May 23, 2024 11:15

Arbite: Nov 4, 2009

Telsa Cola posted:

Or Slaneesh flips this "actually this is fun" switch and you are in constant extreme levels of agony.

That actually happens in Reynolds' last Fabius Bile book. The Dark Eldar starts getting upset that the torture he inflicts is getting less nourishing.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 22:45

von Metternich: May 7, 2007; Why the hell not?

Just read the new Crime novel, which was fine-they all seem kind of samey to me. One thing that stuck out though, there's a building that's called the Red (something) because "it was made of iron and then it rusted so now it's red."

Are they still using IRON in any meaningful way in the Imperium? I assumed the Iron Warriors/Hands were kind of metaphorical. Surely everything substantial is made with some kind of ceramic/metal/concrete hybrid? Or, at the very least, steel?

# ? Jul 5, 2023 22:46

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

Deptfordx posted:

Yeah I had similar complaints about Kymes The Iron Kingdom. Literal Crusade despatched by the Emperors Son reborn accompanied by a Custodes, those who stand at the right hand........etc, etc.

Everyone where they arrive, treats it like another Imperial force rolling up and the Governor is able to rebel, including murdering the Custodes, and no-one on her side seems to give a drat about what should be horrifically blasphemous.

One could make the case that after the nightmares of the breaking of the Cadian gate, seeing literal swarms of demons in the night sky and other fun stuff, a lot of worlds are just done and lost, no matter how many loyal primarchs pop around. "Ohh fun, we lived a drat nightmare for 20+ years and my toothpaste turns into nurglings that fart in my face, but some big holy guy comes down saying he's Guilliman, and asks for a tithe in resources and manpower 5 times as big as before? Whooptie freaking doo! I already lost three of my kids, he's taking the last one to go who knows where? gently caress off! I'll give the spikey preacher a chance, the nurglings behave around him."

But it's not a case being properly made. It's a minor point in 'Harrowmaster' and perhaps one other book.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 23:30

D-Pad: Jun 28, 2006

Deptfordx posted:

Yeah I had similar complaints about Kymes The Iron Kingdom. Literal Crusade despatched by the Emperors Son reborn accompanied by a Custodes, those who stand at the right hand........etc, etc.

Everyone where they arrive, treats it like another Imperial force rolling up and the Governor is able to rebel, including murdering the Custodes, and no-one on her side seems to give a drat about what should be horrifically blasphemous.

To be fair this was a knight world that was only nominally part of the imperium so their outlook on that stuff isn't going to be quite as hardcore as nor.al worlds, especially among their nobility and ruling castes.

# ? Jul 5, 2023 23:45

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; "From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.; Buglord

von Metternich posted:

Just read the new Crime novel, which was fine-they all seem kind of samey to me. One thing that stuck out though, there's a building that's called the Red (something) because "it was made of iron and then it rusted so now it's red."

Are they still using IRON in any meaningful way in the Imperium? I assumed the Iron Warriors/Hands were kind of metaphorical. Surely everything substantial is made with some kind of ceramic/metal/concrete hybrid? Or, at the very least, steel?

A lot of mechanicus stuff is described as using old materials and technology like iron for aesthetics.

# ? Jul 6, 2023 03:06

Telsa Cola: Aug 19, 2011; No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface

Sephyr posted:

One could make the case that after the nightmares of the breaking of the Cadian gate, seeing literal swarms of demons in the night sky and other fun stuff, a lot of worlds are just done and lost, no matter how many loyal primarchs pop around. "Ohh fun, we lived a drat nightmare for 20+ years and my toothpaste turns into nurglings that fart in my face, but some big holy guy comes down saying he's Guilliman, and asks for a tithe in resources and manpower 5 times as big as before? Whooptie freaking doo! I already lost three of my kids, he's taking the last one to go who knows where? gently caress off! I'll give the spikey preacher a chance, the nurglings behave around him."

But it's not a case being properly made. It's a minor point in 'Harrowmaster' and perhaps one other book.

You can't really paint the Imperium as a crazy fanatic holy empire, and make a big deal about how this is ultimately loving them over through subtext and verbatim text, and then when honest god Jesus shows up with the flaming sword of motherfucking god as well as other extremely holy or significant figures go "Oh actually we don't care about that kinda thing". There 100% should at the very least be a "Holy poo poo he's real and hes here" moment.

I agree that if thats what they are going for they are poorly making the case, but even if its several hundred years after the fact people should be absolutely off the walls bonkers when a primarch shows up. People are still off the walls bonkers when a CSM or a Space Marine shows up.

Edit: if for whatever reasons Sanginius came back people would absolutely be losing their god drat minds given that he's a major religious and cultural figure given both his appearance and role in the heresy, and I feel like the GW authors would 100% drop the ball on portraying the impact of that.

Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Jul 6, 2023

# ? Jul 6, 2023 04:41

D-Pad: Jun 28, 2006

I dunno there are a ton of throwaway lines and scenery and character reactions etc peppered throughout all the newer books that show all of that. Plenty of scenes where characters and crowds freak the gently caress out when they see Guilliman for the first time. Also quite a few instances of characters only hearing he has returned and thinking it's probably all bullshit because it's just too big of an idea for them to believe which is something that would happen as well. There could certainly be more I guess but it's not like it isn't happening.

# ? Jul 6, 2023 06:10

sharknado slashfic: Jun 24, 2011

bunnyofdoom posted:

God I hope Trazyn crashes that party too

Pert shows up like hey I heard yall were talking about reverse engineering stuff

# ? Jul 6, 2023 06:23

boredsatellite: Dec 7, 2013

How does Fabius Bile not get loving shot and destroyed on sight there?

# ? Jul 6, 2023 06:30

Zudgemud: Mar 1, 2009; Grimey Drawer

boredsatellite posted:

How does Fabius Bile not get loving shot and destroyed on sight there?

Just looking at the cover I assume it is because he brought his own army that rivals that of the ones wanting to kill him.

# ? Jul 6, 2023 07:51

boredsatellite: Dec 7, 2013

Ah fair, that does seem like a well equipped mutant army

# ? Jul 6, 2023 08:00

notaspy: Mar 22, 2009

I hope they do a new model for Trazyn as I want to build the ultimate nerd convention

Crawl
Bile
Trazyn
Magnus
That Ork

# ? Jul 6, 2023 08:00

Angry Lobster: May 16, 2011; Served with honor
and some clarified butter.

Fabius doesn't give a poo poo if he dies, he has plenty of spare bodies like Trazyn.

# ? Jul 6, 2023 08:04

Zudgemud: Mar 1, 2009; Grimey Drawer

notaspy posted:

I hope they do a new model for Trazyn as I want to build the ultimate nerd convention

Crawl
Bile
Trazyn
Magnus
That Ork

Why not also add Pert and they could all play some grognard wargame with miniatures hand made by themselves and then get into arguments like if a clockwork knight can actually have the clockworks be made out of flesh and still count as a clockwork knight and not a flesh golem.

# ? Jul 6, 2023 08:27

D-Pad: Jun 28, 2006

Just finished Martyr's Tomb. I enjoyed it quite a bit. It's almost all bolter porn but it was well done and miles above the other dogshit DoF books we've gotten so far.

# ? Jul 6, 2023 09:07

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

D-Pad posted:

To be fair this was a knight world that was only nominally part of the imperium so their outlook on that stuff isn't going to be quite as hardcore as nor.al worlds, especially among their nobility and ruling castes.

That's an understatement. I'm halfway through Assassinorum: Kingmaker (which incidentally is, so far, exactly what I wanted Nemesis to be, although I miss the Eversor) and this is reiterated pretty strongly:

quote:

‘They leave us be as a courtesy, mother. We are part of the Imperium, whether you like it or not.’

Hawthorn wrinkled her nose. ‘Only in a technical sense. We have an understanding with the Imperium, Linoleus, we are not Imperial. Dominion was a settled world with ancient chivalric traditions when Terra was just feuding warlords and techno-barbarians. Never forget that, my son. We are older than their empire. It suits us to be a part of them.’

‘They might not see it that way, if it came down to it.’

‘If it came down to it,’ she said, lowering her head and looking at him hard, ‘we have a stack of treaties thick as a hymnal.’

‘Paper, I’ve found, provides very little armour when the lasguns start firing.’

quote:

‘You know that two years ago we got an order to muster and follow you?’

‘And why haven’t you?’

‘Because it was an order, not a request,’ Kraine sneered. ‘It’s that damned Guilliman. Thinks he owns the galaxy. Like we’re all his vassals. In the old days, the Imperium remembered that we were allies. Treaty partners. We are far older than they are. Hells, the lowest foundations of Gathering Palace were laid before the Palace on Terra. They used to woo us, send diplomats. Now, we simply get an astropathic communique saying we should rally our lances for war? Not calling on our oaths or honour, but commanding us. Hah!’

‘Perhaps it was an oversight. There is need for urgency, uncle. The Transmuted–’

‘That,’ said the baron, stabbing his chest with a strong finger, ‘is exactly what I fear. An oversight. My boy, you have fought in a crusade and think you know the Imperium, but you don’t. Because let me tell you, planets die because of oversight. A slip-up in the paperwork and a water table never gets restocked. A system gets too quiet, minds its own business, and suddenly a tactical vassal on Terra decides it’s not worth defending from the greenskin savages. If we let this oversight stand, if we turn the other cheek without defending our honour, it will be the death of us. Our rights will never be respected again – and if you ask me, that’s exactly what Guilliman wants. To erode our autonomy. Bring us all in line, numbers on a ledger, easily counted. They’ll want us adopting Imperial law next, I expect.’

‘Surely not.’

‘They did with Castelaide.’

‘What?’

‘Sent them a notice that their native land grant system and census didn’t comply with the Lex. Forced them to accept a monastery of the Sisters of the Ebon Chalice too, and insisted Navy and Militarum servicemen be immune to local prosecution.’

‘They didn’t accept?’

‘They did. The Knights of Castelaide have always been too…’ He mulled the choice of words, then spat one out with venom. ‘Flexible. They felt they had no choice. Their options were to let the Imperials rewrite the treaty, or fight.’

‘Mother said she’d fight.’

Kraine shot him a twinkling glance, as if he’d prised the information loose. ‘No doubt she would, and it’d be just as ruinous as letting the erosion happen. Too soft and you lose your independence slowly, too hard it goes all at once. But if we put up a brave diplomatic front, insist on the mutual respect both we and the Imperium deserve, we can thread the needle. They want our Knights in the field, and they can’t have that if they crush us. Guilliman is ruthless, but he’s not stupid.’

quote:

‘Say your words,’ said Kraine. ‘We’re all family. And he’ll learn of our… disagreement soon enough. I’d rather he heard it first-hand rather than through the poison filter of the baroness.’

‘Very well.’ He took a goblet from a servant and sipped before starting. ‘Lord Commander Guilliman is our ally. An ally in a difficult position, leading a fractious coalition, with the galaxy torn in half. It is more than understandable that he wishes to simplify some arrangements. Besides, his representative said nothing to me about changing the arrangements when I went to renew our oaths.’

‘Treaty,’ growled Kraine. ‘You went to renew our treaty. We do not give oaths to Guilliman.’

So yeah, at least some of the Knight worlds have very little loyalty or respect for the Emperor and his court, they flat out state that they are not Imperial and they see the presence of Nuns with Guns (his #1 fanclub) with open hostility. But much like the Mechanicum's forge worlds, when you control a lot of dakka and are willing to aim it against Chaos and xenos, you are apparently allowed to skip the kool-aid.

# ? Jul 6, 2023 09:09

habeasdorkus: Nov 3, 2013; Royalty is a continuous shitposting motion.

Those excerpts remind me that Assassinorum: Kingmaker was really, really good and fun. Not quite as excellent as The Infinite and the Divine, but absolutely in the top tier of Black Library books. The sort of thing I'd happily recommend to non-Warhammer fans as a ripping good space opera. Cannot wait to get more from Robert Rath, given that those are his first two novels. What I especially like is, while there's plenty of cool action sequences with both the assassins and Knights, there's as much or more focus on the characters and world. And that type of lore is what I really dig about 40k.

And yeah, the Imperium is a byzantine state even before you get to their alliances with Mars and the Knight Worlds. The Ecclesiarchy and Administratum don't exactly work hand in glove, and the Inquisition and Assassins certainly don't. Wraight does a good job exploring those cleavages in his Watchers of the Throne duology and in his Vaults of Terra trilogy, and ADB did a real good job showing just how hosed up it could get in Spear of the Emperor.

# ? Jul 7, 2023 14:17

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

What if the Ecclesiarchy and Administratum were combined tho? I�m positive that would work well

# ? Jul 7, 2023 14:29

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I like the idea what the IOM is actually well run in places and there are good worlds. But I understand how that gets complicated since at the top level it�s so obviously not a government that should be praised

# ? Jul 7, 2023 14:33

Warden: Jan 16, 2020

Goge Vandire posted:

What if the Ecclesiarchy and Administratum were combined tho? I�m positive that would work well

# ? Jul 7, 2023 18:02

a shitty king: Mar 26, 2010

euphronius posted:

What if the Ecclesiarchy and Administratum were combined tho? I’m positive that would work well

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# ? Jul 7, 2023 18:41

Black Griffon: Mar 12, 2005; Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time.

I know who you are. You are destiny.

God it's so hosed how Keeble is the Ridley Scott of narrating Warhams. When he's bad it's like "what are you doing and why are you doing it?", but when he's good you don't even notice if the book is bad. He's just so loving alive.

# ? Jul 7, 2023 22:16

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

Black Griffon posted:

God it's so hosed how Keeble is the Ridley Scott of narrating Warhams. When he's bad it's like "what are you doing and why are you doing it?", but when he's good you don't even notice if the book is bad. He's just so loving alive.

Haven't found a bad read from him yet. Which book do you mean?

# ? Jul 7, 2023 23:18

Black Griffon: Mar 12, 2005; Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time.

I know who you are. You are destiny.

Descent of Angels is the Exodus: Gods and Kings of Keeble. Someone else pointed out that one of the big issues is with the main characters, who kinda sound like the annoying kids they were at the beginning of the book up until the end of the book. Other than that I think it's just been a couple of short stories/novellas that kinda fizzled, and I cannot emphasize enough that I make the comparison because I absolutely adore Scott's work and I go "wait what?" when he makes something bad. The vast majority of Keeble is loving amazing and I'm just so happy every time I notice he leans away from the mic so he can actually roar.

And then there's the "making bad stuff feel good" thing. Alien: Covenant isn't good, but it's loving beautiful, and The Outcast Dead has problems, but Keeble manages to make Kai Zulane such a wonderful, tender and broken man that I ended up loving the book.

# ? Jul 7, 2023 23:31

AndyElusive: Jan 7, 2007

Black Griffon posted:

God it's so hosed how Keeble is the Ridley Scott of narrating Warhams. When he's bad it's like "what are you doing and why are you doing it?", but when he's good you don't even notice if the book is bad. He's just so loving alive.

This is how I felt when I first heard his voice for High Marshal Helbrecht in Helsreach.

Then like once I was over it though, I honestly felt like the voice he did for him was loving perfect.

# ? Jul 7, 2023 23:35

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Keeble understands that not every Space Marine needs to have a deep booming voice which is just as well because Keeble's A Game is in doing raspy voices.

# ? Jul 8, 2023 03:24

Sharkopath: May 27, 2009

Reading The Last Volari, blood knight story set in sigmar with a neat vampire protagonist. Haven't heard much talk about it at all but I'm really enjoying it so far. It's nice to have a set of characters who are so full of emotion they can barely contain them.

# ? Jul 8, 2023 03:35

Arbite: Nov 4, 2009

Sephyr posted:

Haven't found a bad read from him yet. Which book do you mean?

There was that delayed Siege of Terra audiobook, where the first recording was allegedly lost and he had to redo everything. Left him sounding a bit cheesed off in the early chapters.

# ? Jul 8, 2023 07:32

Owlkill: Jul 1, 2009

Sharkopath posted:

Reading The Last Volari, blood knight story set in sigmar with a neat vampire protagonist. Haven't heard much talk about it at all but I'm really enjoying it so far. It's nice to have a set of characters who are so full of emotion they can barely contain them.

Definitely here for decent AoS/Warcry/Underworlds setting recommendations.

Read Spear of Shadows by Josh Reynolds a few years back and it was wholly forgettable, recently started Dark Harvest by him and I'm enjoying it a lot more, getting some definite Wicker Man vibes (if Edward Woodward's character was prone to bursts of ultraviolence)

# ? Jul 8, 2023 12:53

Sephyr: Aug 28, 2012

Arbite posted:

There was that delayed Siege of Terra audiobook, where the first recording was allegedly lost and he had to redo everything. Left him sounding a bit cheesed off in the early chapters.

Huh. Now I'm picturing an audio director wanting to do it Kubrick-style.

"Ok John, we 'lost' the last 12 takes. But I want you to do it again. I think it'll really bring out how tired, frazzled, angry and dissociating the survivors of thevSiege are at this point. Just sustained by a cold bitter fury at the Emperor, Horus, and their rear end in a top hat director. Ready? Action!"

# ? Jul 8, 2023 15:22

Ardent Communist: Oct 17, 2010; ALLAH! MU'AMMAR! LIBYA WA BAS!

Just wanted to post my thanks to the Omnissiah somewhere i'd only be regarded as half mad as opposed to totally crazy.

All praises to the Omnissiah,
for restoring function to my handheld vox,
despite the ministrations of techpriests failing,
my words and prayers have been answered
now the glorious machine and i can resume communion,
all glory to Omnissiah,
through the holy motive force all is possible!

# ? Jul 8, 2023 17:25

bunnyofdoom: Mar 29, 2008; I've been here the whole time, and you're not my real Dad!

Thought after finishing infinite and divine

so the planet is a tropical paradise where the indigenous population is driven out and killed and then settlers built on their bones and made it a vacation spot and then destroyed the environment for profit and then just out of gently caress that. Then I remembered Rath is from Hawaii and it clicked

# ? Jul 8, 2023 18:12

Warden: Jan 16, 2020

bunnyofdoom posted:

Thought after finishing infinite and divine

so the planet is a tropical paradise where the indigenous population is driven out and killed and then settlers built on their bones and made it a vacation spot and then destroyed the environment for profit and then just out of gently caress that. Then I remembered Rath is from Hawaii and it clicked

Oh, gently caress me, I missed that.

# ? Jul 8, 2023 18:18

DaysBefore: Jan 24, 2019

bunnyofdoom posted:

Thought after finishing infinite and divine

so the planet is a tropical paradise where the indigenous population is driven out and killed and then settlers built on their bones and made it a vacation spot and then destroyed the environment for profit and then just out of gently caress that. Then I remembered Rath is from Hawaii and it clicked

Oh drat lol

# ? Jul 8, 2023 19:45

sharknado slashfic: Jun 24, 2011

Ah, didn't catch that, good call

# ? Jul 8, 2023 19:58

Genghis Cohen: Jun 29, 2013

So, this new book is up for pre-order about an 'Inquisitor Sabbathiel' and I remember the preview sort of gave the impression she was an established, returning character. Is this the case, or is it the first appearance?

# ? Jul 8, 2023 22:22

D-Pad: Jun 28, 2006

Genghis Cohen posted:

So, this new book is up for pre-order about an 'Inquisitor Sabbathiel' and I remember the preview sort of gave the impression she was an established, returning character. Is this the case, or is it the first appearance?

She was previously a character in three comic series with four issues each. You can read them here, and I would recommend doing so before starting the book:

1. https://readallcomics.com/category/warhammer-40000-will-of-iron/

2. https://readallcomics.com/category/warhammer-40000-revelations/

3. https://readallcomics.com/category/warhammer-40000-fallen/

She then had a short story in Inferno! Volume 4

# ? Jul 8, 2023 22:54

Sharkopath: May 27, 2009

Owlkill posted:

Definitely here for decent AoS/Warcry/Underworlds setting recommendations.

Read Spear of Shadows by Josh Reynolds a few years back and it was wholly forgettable, recently started Dark Harvest by him and I'm enjoying it a lot more, getting some definite Wicker Man vibes (if Edward Woodward's character was prone to bursts of ultraviolence)

Finished it up and liked it a bunch, rambling review to follow.

The Last Volari is a coming of age courtly drama where a vampire princess has to learn very quickly how to maintain the reins of power as her father falls ill in the middle of a long running guerilla war that pits vampires and their human allies against humans aligned to sigmar, in the volcanic plains of a wasteland region of aqshy.

It really is focused more on the court part than big battles, with most of the content being navigating the loyalties of different characters, with tests and betrayals along the way.

I dont think everybody will vibe with the main character, although I definitely did. She's a young vampire who got turned as a teenager and still is immature, brash, incredibly violent and distrustful of even her nominal allies and always a hairs breadth away from pouncing on people for even looking at her funny. Her only moderating influence is the spirit of her dead mother, who speaks to her in her mind but only responds if spoken to vocally, a fact which unnerves those around her as she's often driven to argue with herself out in the open.

Usually with black library vampire stuff they like to keep the vampires at least partially sympathetic and being kastelai/blood knights makes this a bit easier since they really do value the commitments their human allies have brokered with them and they aren't given to excessive cruelty. In opposition the human sigmarites are pulling from some of the darkest of history, and in no uncertain terms the inspiration here is Nazi SS. These are outsiders obsessed with purity who have no problem putting every human thst a vampire ever even looked at to the torch and ruling over a wasteland of clean ashes.

It was a clean fast read and I think the weaker aspect is combat if only because it usually wasn't as compelling as the character interaction.

I'd recommend it.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 02:23

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# ? May 23, 2024 11:15

Genghis Cohen: Jun 29, 2013

D-Pad posted:

She was previously a character in three comic series with four issues each. You can read them here, and I would recommend doing so before starting the book:

1. https://readallcomics.com/category/warhammer-40000-will-of-iron/

2. https://readallcomics.com/category/warhammer-40000-revelations/

3. https://readallcomics.com/category/warhammer-40000-fallen/

She then had a short story in Inferno! Volume 4

Thank you for that, very helpful! I have read the modern Inferno anthologies, but obviously it didn't make that big an impression. Shame as I love the Inquisition-themed stuff in general.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 12:58

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