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DeadlyMuffin posted:Honestly, it just sounds like you are trying to absolve your conscience for remaining a member of a group that has caused/is causing others harm by saying that your actions alone aren't causing that harm so it doesn't matter. Uh, I'm not Catholic. I just grew up being told it's bad to blame Muslims for 9/11 and never grew out of it, I guess. You said you'd show me why it's bad to hold people responsible for the consequences of their own choices and nothing else, I still don't see it. I'm arguing with you because you said something wrong on the internet and I have that kind of weirdo syndrome where I can't let it stand, I figured that's what all of us are doing here. Dubar posted:You can still have dinner with your family on a Sunday after you have made the choice to no longer believe in God. Is this a choice people can make voluntarily? Dubar posted:You can dress however you like, for whatever reason you like. But if you dress like a Muslim and you're seen as a Muslim by others, you'll still be tagged with "guilt by association" for overseas atrocities, whether I'm super religious or not. According to this thread you should just "stop bitching" about it, it's no big deal, it's only like one or two dozen Muslims sho were killed because they looked like they belonged to an "implicated" religion. Again, maybe this is all true of Christianity, but in the case of Judaism and especially Islam this logic is validating an ugly form of bigotry which has incited and will continue to incite terror campaigns, angry mobs, lynchings, and mass shootings, because it blames vulnerable people for horrible violence. I remember when the biggest problem with Right Wing Media was that it made people believe that Muslims should be held in suspicion and disgust because of Al-Qaeda. Now I'm being told here that, no, being Muslim is comparable to being in the KKK. The end-point of this reasoning is that we should bring back Trump's Muslim ban, after all if these people want to come to our country they should just give up their religion which is no big deal who cares. Dubar posted:Religion and culture influence each other, but they are different things, and if you can't see where one ends and the other begins, then you are absolutely participating in the weaponization of religion in society. If you are a Hasidic Jew it is completely impossible to disentangle your culture and your religion. That doesn't by itself mean you are doing something evil to society, forming a weapon against it, by belonging to that culture. You also did not deserve the Crown Height Riots to happen, to hide in your home while a mob rages for you to die, because they hold you "guilty by association" for a crime committed by someone else in your religion. You shouldn't be told to "stop bitching" about it Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Jul 7, 2023 |
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Jul 7, 2023 14:53
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Karatela posted:My real issue with going on about it being Christians needing to take responsibility like this is that Evangelicals and other shitheads like the Prosperity Gospel fucks aren't actually Christian anyway; they live in their own heretical cult space and basically run things from there.
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Jul 7, 2023 15:15
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I recall seeing some poll that the vast majority of Evangelicals essentially subscribe to Arianism, despite evangelicalism being Trinitarian. It's really all about cultural vibes.
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Jul 7, 2023 15:36
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cat botherer posted:I recall seeing some poll that the vast majority of Evangelicals essentially subscribe to Arianism, despite evangelicalism being Trinitarian. It's really all about cultural vibes. I don't think someone's religion is insincere because they're heretical according to traditional dogma. That's how new religious movements get started in the first place. The preacher who delivered the invocation at Trump's inauguration, Paula White, has been dogged by accusations of Arianism for a long time.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:46
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A bit of UK rightwing cruelty for a change:quote:Robert Jenrick has cartoon murals painted over at children’s asylum centre https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jul/07/robert-jenrick-has-cartoon-murals-painted-over-at-childrens-asylum-centre
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Jul 7, 2023 17:03
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I don't think someone's religion is insincere because they're heretical according to traditional dogma. That's how new religious movements get started in the first place.
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Jul 7, 2023 17:05
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cat botherer posted:Yeah I'm not knocking how anyone gives Godhead It's a fantastic pun but then what do you mean by "it's really all about cultural vibes"? Pookah posted:A bit of UK rightwing cruelty for a change: I wish they had the text of the actual memo or whatever, I'd love to see how exactly they worded "we are not scaring the kids enough."
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Jul 7, 2023 17:23
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I wish they had the text of the actual memo or whatever, I'd love to see how exactly they worded "we are not scaring the kids enough." It's a long, hallowed tradition in Torydom that "undeserving" children should be brutalized as often as possible, as cruelly as possible. See also Thatcher, Margaret.
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Jul 7, 2023 17:28
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Civilized Fishbot posted:It's a fantastic pun but then what do you mean by "it's really all about cultural vibes"?
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Jul 7, 2023 17:40
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Uh, I'm not Catholic. I just grew up being told it's bad to blame Muslims for 9/11 and never grew out of it, I guess. What you are describing is racism against Arabs and has nothing to do with religion. A non-muslim Arab would be treated the same way while a non-arab muslim would likely escape scorn. You are equating culture and religion in the same way a bigot would. Yes it would be hard for a Muslim Arab to escape racism. Racism is not likely to disappear any time soon. However the fact that they are Muslim is still their own choice. You can embrace Scientology tomorrow if you want.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:04
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Dubar posted:What you are describing is racism against Arabs and has nothing to do with religion. Do you believe there is Islamophobic violence in the US or does it never happen? Dubar posted:a non-arab muslim would likely escape scorn. This is a bizarre fantasy. Here in the United States, non-Arab Muslims face enormous discrimination and regular threats of violence. Somali Muslims have been talking about this for a long time, that they are targeted for both their ethnic background and for being Muslim. https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/transformation/how-somali-muslims-are-raising-10000-person-anti-hate-army/ Dubar posted:You are equating culture and religion in the same way a bigot would. It is not bigoted to say that religion is a cultural expression which people should be allowed to practice freely without being held in suspicion or contempt for crimes by people who look, talk, or pray like them. Dubar posted:However the fact that they are Muslim is still their own choice. Do you believe it was bigoted for Trump try to ban all the Muslims from entering the country, or was he just holding adults responsible for their choices? Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jul 7, 2023 |
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Jul 7, 2023 18:26
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Froghammer posted:The first time MTG went on Infowars she was legit complaining that she needed to form voting blocs in order to pass the legislation she wanted. Like, "Can you BELIEVE that in Congress you have to WORK WITH OTHER PEOPLE instead of EVERYONE LISTENING TO YOU" MTG gives me huge "Main character of reality" vibes, regardless of her horrible opinions.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:27
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Uh, I'm not Catholic. I just grew up being told it's bad to blame Muslims for 9/11 and never grew out of it, I guess. Never said you were. I mentioned some Catholic friends in the part of my post you didn't respond to. It is bad to blame Muslims for 9/11. It is also bad to excuse members of a church or mosque that supports lovely things just because they aren't doing it themselves. Civilized Fishbot posted:You said you'd show me why it's bad to hold people responsible for the consequences of their own choices and nothing else, I still don't see it. You are doing harm by being a member of those organizations. Full stop. Maybe it's a small amount, but it's harm. Civilized Fishbot posted:I'm arguing with you because you said something wrong on the internet and I have that kind of weirdo syndrome where I can't let it stand, I figured that's what all of us are doing here. Same. I think you're excusing bigotry because it's just a little bit. It pisses me off. I can't agree to disagree on this poo poo. I get it being hard to leave. That can be a huge obstacle, and it can outweigh the bad of that organization. But it doesn't excuse it.
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Jul 7, 2023 19:22
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I think the problem is that you thing of a religion as an organization and not a broad web of cultural traditions and identity labels which often become integral to our lifestyles and psychologies. Which is why you think "being a Muslim" and "being in the literal KKK" are comparable."The actual comparison would be "being a Muslim vs. being a Southerner" or "being in Al Qaeda vs bring in the KKK." The first are cultural identities and webs of traditions that you're just born into and for which you shouldn't face discrimination. The second two are terrorists. If you can't tell the difference between being a Muslim and being a terrorist, you shouldn't be lecturing others about excusing bigotry. I am not excusing bigotry because I believe we are responsible for the consequences of our actions and nothing else, or because struggle to follow your idea of "a KKK member who I say isn't doing anything bad but is also doing bad stuff and who doesn't have control over any harm done but is also doing harm." I stand by what I said that we are responsible only for the consequences of our actions, and I don't think people should be in the KKK. If you think someone can be in the KKK without their actions harming people, that's such a bizarre idea that you shouldn't be surprised it produces bizarre conclusions. I've been posting here too much but in the last 3 pages I've been told Muslims should accept that they'll be blamed for overseas atrocities and stop being concerned about it, that being a Muslim is like being in the KKK, that Muslims are harming other people just by existing as Muslims, and that Muslims don't actually face violence or discrimination for being Muslim, but if they do they should just stop being Muslim. These ideas aren't just bullshit, they are dangerous and get people killed. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jul 7, 2023 |
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Jul 7, 2023 19:36
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LOL. LMAO, even. https://twitter.com/MattGertz/status/1677395564948779008
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Jul 7, 2023 20:40
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At this point Musk is basically paying Carlson not to grow corn.
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Jul 7, 2023 20:48
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FMguru posted:LOL. LMAO, even. Every decade needs its own "Glenn Beck meteoric drop from ubiquity into obscurity".
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Jul 7, 2023 20:57
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Which is why you think "being a Muslim" and "being in the literal KKK" are comparable. This is an incredibly offensive misreading of my posts. I never said this. I do not believe this. Civilized Fishbot posted:If you can't tell the difference between being a Muslim and being a terrorist, you shouldn't be lecturing others about excusing bigotry. This is also not something I have ever said. Jesus loving Christ. If you are a member of a group that does harm: the Catholic Church, a mosque or church or temple or whatever with lovely views towards LGBT people you bear some tiny fraction of moral responsibility just by belonging. Even if all you do is say the prayers and go to service on X day. And as I've said over and over, if you are a member of one of those churches and you feel that the good of you belonging does outweighs the bad of you supporting it by belonging, then grand. But I don't think you should get to pretend you aren't doing harm. And the dude that posted his church that looks like it's lovely on LGBT issues might keep that in mind next time he talks about what an ally he is or whatever. If you put up a Christmas tree and call yourself a Christian but aren't part of a lovely church, then I've got zero issue. You do you. But I'm really, really loving tired of people who feel the need to jump in and #NotAllChristians when others are talking about issues with how Christianity affects things in the US. It is *exactly* like a man who has to pipe up about not all men every time misogyny is a topic. We know. If you are not doing those things, we aren't talking about you. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jul 7, 2023 |
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Jul 7, 2023 22:07
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DeadlyMuffin posted:This is an incredibly offensive misreading of my posts. I never said this. I do not believe this. I said Muslims and Jews should not be held accountable for the evil done in the name of their religion, because it's morally incorrect and because it puts them in danger, and you said, "well, imagine it was the KKK." I guess I have to admit I don't know why you think that's a useful analogy, but I disagree, it's not a useful analogy because "Muslim" and "Jewish" are benign cultural identities and the KKK is a violent terror cell. DeadlyMuffin posted:If you are a member of a group that does harm: the Catholic Church, a mosque or church or temple or whatever with lovely views towards LGBT people you bear some tiny fraction of moral responsibility just by belonging I agree - if you're a member of a group that does harm, that's bad. Being Muslim or Jewish should not mean that you're held in suspicion as someone who's in a group that does harm. Because that suspicion is both morally unfair and literally deadly. DeadlyMuffin posted:But I'm really, really loving tired of people who feel the need to jump in and #NotAllChristians when others are talking about issues with how Christianity affects things in the US. It is *exactly* like a man who has to pipe up about not all men every time misogyny is a topic. We know. If you are not doing those things, we aren't talking about you. If it had stayed about Christianity it wouldn't matter to me, because anti-Christian violence doesn't happen in this country. But people in this thread started saying "yeah, no matter what religion you are, you should be ready to be held accountable for crimes committed in the name of that religion" which in the case of Muslims and Jews has gotten people killed.
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Jul 7, 2023 22:50
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I said Muslims and Jews should not be held accountable for the evil done in the name of their religion, because it's morally incorrect and because it puts them in danger, and you said, "well, imagine it was the KKK." I guess I have to admit I don't know why you think that's a useful analogy, but I disagree, it's not a useful analogy because "Muslim" and "Jewish" are benign cultural identities and the KKK is a violent terror cell. Define "held accountable" here, because the way I read your post you'll give someone who is a member of a mosque that says horrible things about LGBT people a pass on it.
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Jul 7, 2023 23:45
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These campaign ads are some of the most bizarro things I've seen in a while. It feels like some parody you'd see in a Paul Verhoven dystopia flick. https://twitter.com/CaseyDeSantis/status/1677061896317353988?t=mP6T95GHAItO9CSDcb95QQ&s=19 Apparently Tim Pool is pissy they lifted footage he gathered and used it without permission lol. Panfilo fucked around with this message at 12:31 on Jul 8, 2023 |
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Jul 8, 2023 00:07
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Panfilo posted:Apparently Tim Pool is pissy Good
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Jul 8, 2023 00:13
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Glad to see the Live Laugh Love font still finding work.
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Jul 8, 2023 00:42
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Lol. More Tim Pool humiliation please. He is a professional political commentator who said the reason he supports Trump over DeSantis is because the DeSantis campaign used AI audio in an ad. He’s all the proof necessary we don’t live in a meritocracy
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Jul 8, 2023 04:18
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PortobelloPirate posted:He is a professional political commentator who said the reason he supports Trump over DeSantis is because the DeSantis campaign used AI audio in an ad. This is also where I draw the line
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Jul 8, 2023 04:39
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Define "held accountable" here, because the way I read your post you'll give someone who is a member of a mosque that says horrible things about LGBT people a pass on it. There is, and it's ridiculous that I have to make this clear, a difference between "Muslim" and "a member of a mosque that says horrible things about LGBT people." I mean exactly what I said - that Muslims and Jews are not, on the basis of their cultural identities, blameworthy or appropriate targets of suspicion that they're harming people, endorsing harm, or responsible for harm. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Jul 8, 2023 |
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Jul 8, 2023 09:13
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Panfilo posted:These campaign ads are some of the most biarro things I've seen in a while. It feels like some parody you'd see in a Paul Verhoven dystopia flick. Edit: "DEI, stopped". Much like BLM, they're perfectly aware that actually saying what the acronym stands for looks bad because surprise, the majority of people don't hate diversity, equity and inclusion Edit Reloaded: sometimes I feel like I'd be the best propagandist the Democratic Party has ever seen if they hired me just by not being completely stupid, there are so many obvious angles to attack the opposition on. I could probably say the same for most of you, I really don't think I'm a world-class prodigy here. Hell, for the above idea and many others you could probably just steal all the non-copyrighted footage from Last Week Tonight, put some of it to a script and music and call it a day. The Islamic Shock fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Jul 8, 2023 |
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Jul 8, 2023 10:27
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This propiganda works well because their base is very primed to attack some outside threat and use it as a scapegoat for problems. It means they don't have to do any kind of introspection about their choices or convictions. "They are coming for your children" /"Protect the children" are effective slogans because they involve a demographic group even chuds understand to be vulnerable and impressionable. And much like "pedos are bad" is a straightforward and common sense take, the idea of protecting your children or being hostile to those who might harm then is one that is easy to promote and defend after all, anyone that is critical of them easily gets labeled as being indifferent to hostile towards children. And since a lot of their critics don't have children (yes, BiggerBoat you and I have kids and explicitly speak out about this poo poo but I feel like we're kind of in the minority with this discourse) they can spin it to come off as being much more responsible and invested in future generations. To the right, they actually "care" about their children, unlike those narcissistic queer people who only care about themselves and only increase their numbers by corrupting others. The last part also follows a greater narrative theme we see in many stories in general:"good" forces create, grow, and propigate themselves into the future while "evil" cannot do this, rather it can only corrupt, destroy, and appropriate existing things for it's own end. It reassures the reader that they are on the "right" side of things morally. You see a lot of conservatives with this attitude they think they are the ones creating, building, and growing and they think progressives are corrupting and destroying. And another element I observed with this is the fact that for a lot of people, having kids is pretty much their only accomplishment even though it didn't really take significant effort or merit for that to happen. If kids are all you got going for yourself then you are probably going to put a disproportionate amount of significance on your role as a parent, even though by chud standards being a parent is as close to a real life "participation trophy" as you can get. So "protecting your children" "being a mama bear" etc gets seen as noble actions and a convenient excuse as to give yourself an inflated sense of authority over other people. These folks are TERRIFIED of the idea of being on the lower end of their own hierarchies, it's never about others bossing them around it's about them not being able to boss others around instead. For someone without a lot of political agency- a lower middle class parent with little education/career prospects this can feel very empowering. Finally, this also reminds me of a hyperbole I see on the left which they use to build their strawman arguments. You'll hear some people say they don't want to have kids because of climate change, overpopulation, etc reasons. Personally I don't think it's necessary to justify why you want/don't want kids because I don't think the decision to have/not have kids should be an ethical act. However people on both sides of the aisle often do believe that and I think it can be harmful. Either have kids because you want to, or don't have them. I don't think anyone needs to justify it (my mom tells me she had my little brother so that I would "have someone" in my life after her and my dad were dead. I told her it was pretty morbid to have a second child just to exist as a kind of spare tire in my own life; it's ok to just say you wanted 2 kids, or you weren't sure and it just kind of happened, there's no right/wrong answer, mom!). When you get to arguing about the un-ethics of having more children in the world it is really easy for the topic to tumble down the path of eugenics since even the most well meaning people will admit that maybe "certain people" shouldn't be having so many goddamn kids. And leftist nihilism towards the future can really help to fuel right wing attitudes about how much more better equipped and deserving they are to inherit the future.
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Jul 8, 2023 13:14
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Killer robot posted:That's the kind of nonsense this is. Only even moreso: multiple major churches are splitting up because the mainstream body moved toward social justice and inclusion and, unlike southern states in the US, there's nothing to keep individual right-wing congregations from thumbing their nose and making their own church with This is happening both ways, as Southern Baptist churches that affirm and believe women are being forced out of that denomination. And at the end of the day, "evangelicals" are all really tied back to the Southern Baptists eventually, and so many of these issues come from Southern Baptists buying up and controlling almost all of Christian media. cat botherer posted:I grew up in a fundie-heavy community. My general observation is that fundie churchgoers are more in it for social reasons - they don't read the bible much, understand theology, etc. The "religion" part of it is superficial, and is all about reinforcing traditional power structures. God is at the head of that, but more important in practice is patriarchy, "respect for your elders," etc. Morality is equivalent to not rocking the boat. Christian ideas of forgiveness are weaponized to protect the worst people (e.g. prominent male sexpests). Any charity that is done is suffused with judgment of those they (allegedly) help. I was part of a large church that was led by a former theology professor, lots of good works and things of that nature, especially across racial lines. He taught through the entire Bible, and so many people in the church hated that, to the point that they went to another church once COVID hit (where that pastor didn't really do anything but rant about conspiracies for 90+ minutes each week). They hate reading! They think it's liberal and gay! AsInHowe fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Jul 8, 2023 |
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Jul 8, 2023 14:17
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Panfilo posted:This propiganda works well because their base is very primed to attack some outside threat and use it as a scapegoat for problems. It means they don't have to do any kind of introspection about their choices or convictions. Good post. To elaborate and simplify it a bit, what I see is that the ideas you described boil everything down to a basic, simple to digest element that's easy to feel good about and requires very little effort to actually (pretend) to stand for. USA flags on my lawn = "I am a patriot". More flags means I x amount more of a patriot. Of course I want to protect children from pedophiles! Who could be against that? So then everyone that makes these people feel uncomfortable is ripe for accusations of child molestations. Who doesn't love freedom? The USA is all about freedom ergo the USA is great and anyone who has criticism of it must hate america. Therefore everyone of that stripe must be a commie or a marxist. Look how big my flag is! See? I love america! What have you got against the teachings of Christ? The bible is the word of god and is good. Therefore, since I (pretend to) believe in the bible, I myself am good and anyone who doesn't or who dislikes public prayer or religion in schools is evil. After all, America was founded on it. How can anyone hate our brave troops? I support the troops so all wars must be just. Otherwise, if you oppose war, then ipso facto you hate out troops. Here, look, I even have a yellow ribbon sticker on my car! Who could possibly be against law and order? One has to love cops if they support the rule of law and anyone who has a problem with police corruption or abuses of power must really love violent, drug addled criminals and rapists. You can make an enemy out of just about anyone in this way, as we're seeing.
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Jul 8, 2023 14:35
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Is this a good place to ask about what drama just happened around Ana Kasparian? She's not Right Wing Media, but if she goes the way of Dave Rubin, she'd qualify.
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Jul 8, 2023 15:33
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That definitely sounds like its own can of worms. We need a “Jimmy Dore Vortex” thread.
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Jul 8, 2023 15:56
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duodenum posted:Is this a good place to ask about what drama just happened around Ana Kasparian? She's not Right Wing Media, but if she goes the way of Dave Rubin, she'd qualify. She and Cenk want to throw the trans community under the bus to appease conservatives (they will not be appeased, no matter what).
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Jul 8, 2023 16:02
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duodenum posted:Is this a good place to ask about what drama just happened around Ana Kasparian? She's not Right Wing Media, but if she goes the way of Dave Rubin, she'd qualify. She's going in the "Now I'm no anti semite but perhaps Jews went a little too far and inevitably antagonized Hitler into starting the Holocaust" concern trolling. There's also this annoying pattern where a left signaling person always seems to slam hard right in response to the most milquetoast of criticism from the left. They can't even ignore the criticism and talk past it, it becomes "the left hurt me and I was forced into the sympathetic arms of the right. Shame on them!"
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Jul 8, 2023 16:32
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BiggerBoat posted:Good post.
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Jul 8, 2023 16:45
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Panfilo posted:She's going in the "Now I'm no anti semite but perhaps Jews went a little too far and inevitably antagonized Hitler into starting the Holocaust" concern trolling. There's also this annoying pattern where a left signaling person always seems to slam hard right in response to the most milquetoast of criticism from the left. They can't even ignore the criticism and talk past it, it becomes "the left hurt me and I was forced into the sympathetic arms of the right. Shame on them!" It's because they were never as progressive as they pretended to be. It's a brand exploitation thing. See how Elon Musk built his army of sycophants and defenders off of being the guy who was going to solve climate change or whatever bullshit he was on in any given month only to rip the mask off and go hard right the moment the egregious labor abuse and racism came out and he couldn't suppress it anymore. And I will note that Cenk and company also went hard against their workforce unionizing as yet another comparison. They also refer to the trans people's agenda as turning people off for being bullies and intimidating people which is uh...Okay? So the people who exist and did nothing but say they want to keep existing pointed out how they were being hurt and that counts as bullying and intimidating? That hypocrite needs to check herself. Archonex fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Jul 8, 2023 |
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Jul 8, 2023 18:37
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 One of the many bad things about America is the white washing of MLK and the Civil Rights movement to "they asked really nicely".
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Jul 8, 2023 21:05
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Panfilo posted:There's also this annoying pattern where a left signaling person always seems to slam hard right in response to the most milquetoast of criticism from the left. They can't even ignore the criticism and talk past it, it becomes "the left hurt me and I was forced into the sympathetic arms of the right. Shame on them!" Somewhere around 2019 or so I saw a mini rant on YouTube (the land of rants) where someone lamented that he votes Democrat, attends marches for and donates to left-aligned causes, but felt like a significant portion of online dems took shots at him or tried to cancel him. He said that the GOP was "like a giant party where they hand you a beer and say welcome aboard," and that even though he didn't consider himself "redpilled" he could understand how others made the switch. I think the video got deleted, either out of shame or after realizing he had the freedom to simply not base his political affiliation on others' judgment of him. I was mainlining social media at the time and kinda-sorta saw where he was coming from in terms of the Trump tent having no real standard besides loyalty to Trump. Watching the further fragmentation of the right and the right's own "circular firing squad" is a thing of beauty. Especially enjoyed republicans screaming at Libertarian voters after 2020, a nice mirror image of democrats hating on Green voters after 2016. Anyway. Same old "everyone else gets to play the victim but *I* am a genuine victim" schtick in these redpillers.
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Jul 8, 2023 21:12
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Jul 8, 2023 22:06
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Geez https://twitter.com/theserfstv/status/1677739409867943937?t=mLxtFOQEnXH_3K7V9GYwBg&s=19
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Jul 8, 2023 22:45
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