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bulletsponge13 posted:The general acceptance rate for large munitions like bombs and missiles is around 30% according to my training, but that's anecdotal and not a good source, even if it seems to fit with overall reality, studies, and independent reports. jesus gently caress
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Jul 7, 2023 14:48
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im biased on this stuff because i grew up having to physically lead my grandfather around because a mine a colleague he was instructing blew up and destroyed much of his face, destroyed his eyes, and both of his arms. the cost of this stuff on the people who have to clean it up later is hosed. Russia is 1000% responsible for this in every single way but it's Ukrainians who are going to pay the horrible price that dealing with it and cleaning it up entails. \/ yeah I remember when he was pondering making that thread, I haven't read it yet because I really try to budget how many first hand accounts of war I take in and Ukraine has been capping that out, but I really should get around to it Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Jul 7, 2023 |
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Jul 7, 2023 14:52
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Herstory Begins Now posted:jesus gently caress https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4002076 Its a really good thread (Which I really really need to catch up on and transcribe the next few)
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Jul 7, 2023 15:00
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In Bosnia after the war, it was common to hear explosions in the distance that were farmers hitting UXO in their fields or seeing it get washed into the roadways after a rain. And, of course, kids finding it and playing with it. It's not cowardly or fifth column or whatever to understand that a significant amount of victims aren't the intended targets.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:03
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bulletsponge13 posted:I loving hate cluster munitions after seeing them firsthand. I think they should be of incredibly limited use, but I am OK with using Cluster Bomblets in the theorized situation. Oh hell yes. ICM are the devil, but in particular use cases they will actually be justified.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:31
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Punished Ape posted:In Bosnia after the war, it was common to hear explosions in the distance that were farmers hitting UXO in their fields or seeing it get washed into the roadways after a rain. And, of course, kids finding it and playing with it. It's not cowardly or fifth column or whatever to understand that a significant amount of victims aren't the intended targets.
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Jul 7, 2023 17:11
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Cluster munitions may be required by the exigencies of the conflict, or not. That is for the Ukranian government and generals to decide. Regardless of the need, they're a weapon that damns you by their use. The war is the responsibility of the Russian Federation yes, none of this would be happening if not for them, but that is not and never will be an absolution of responsibility or guilt for the methods Ukraine may choose to employ. And there is guilt, for the Ukrainians who will be maimed and killed for generations to come because of these specific weapons. Der Kyhe posted:My opinion is that anyone who does not have this opinion is just making excuses for not helping Ukraine in this war. Or are obstructionists and "we are just asking questions"-trolls privately cheering for the Russia. Or complete idealistic tool-bags, the Lisa Simpsons of the world, whose opinions should be ignored when dealing with reality. Your opinion is that of a moron or a monster. Go sit in the garden and have a cup of tea and some biscuits until you're feeling normal.
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Jul 7, 2023 17:32
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Does Ukraine not have and have not been using cluster munitions already? The USSR produced vast quantities of cluster munitions and I would be highly surprised to find out that Ukraine was left with none when they broke up. The internet says Ukraine has been using cluster munitions since the beginning of the war. So, the question isn't, "Should be Ukraine be using/not using cluster munitions." It's just should Ukraine be adding US made cluster munitions to it's already occurring use? It would seem odd to me to say no at this point. Especially, as at least the US supplied munitions will have had their routine maintenance and inspections keeping the UXO rate down to a dull roar compared to the 40-50 year old stuff being hurled around now.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:14
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If the fail rate is as high as 30%, that would make it a dicey proposition to disassemble them and use them for drone-delivery, yes? Although I guess if it works for dropping a bomblet into a trench or open tank hatch, the cost:benefit ratio is still through the roof. Even if it doesn’t, the idea that it could happen still has some value (and now there’s UXO in your trench/tank that needs dealing with). It’s still a really lovely decision to have to make, and the Russians have forced it upon the Ukrainians.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:25
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yes ukraine had some but used virtually all of them up or had them destroyed when depots were targeted fairly early on. you might've noticed that the drone dropped munitions shifted from cluster submunitions to vog grenades a couple of months into the war as one of those suddenly became not ubiquitously available. for a while you were seeing them dropping american-made anti-armor submunitions, too notably no one (at least here) is really saying they shouldn't use them, just kinda lamenting that the whole UXO situation is going to be even worse Icon Of Sin posted:If the fail rate is as high as 30%, that would make it a dicey proposition to disassemble them and use them for drone-delivery, yes? Although I guess if it works for dropping a bomblet into a trench or open tank hatch, the cost:benefit ratio is still through the roof. Even if it doesn’t, the idea that it could happen still has some value (and now there’s UXO in your trench/tank that needs dealing with). worth noting that people broadly ended up with a very distorted view of the effectiveness of drone dropped munitions due to only seeing the best-of successes. first hand reports suggested they're a lot less effective and specifically yeah quite inconsistent both due to fail rates and due to the inherent imprecision of dropping a small, lightweight munition from 150m up and that's before getting into countermeasures and jamming, albeit the last two are less relevant insofar as Ukrainian efforts focused on finding units that lacked anti-drone equipment and which existed in less-heavily jammed pockets of airspace that said, they're apparently quite effective as a morale thing and for harassing units out of particularly unprotected positions. actual military impact per drone is by all accounts pretty low, but it's also a way of having an impact while taking on relatively little risk Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jul 7, 2023 |
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Jul 7, 2023 18:27
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Yes, by that logic lets take all the Ukrainian weapon aid away because someone might get hurt using them. Its Ukrainians decision to decide what they are willing to use and what they need to defend themselves. But yeah call me a moron or monster for letting Ukrainians to decide what they want to do. While the Russians are already peppering the place with cluster munitions.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:44
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I don't think anyone is calling anyone else here a monster over that, although that may be happening on Twitter, which as we all know is a higher, superior form of reality than this thread or physical/material reality.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:51
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Meanwhile, in war news... https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1677290713749377027 This seems like an excellent way to totally core out your own economy and completely gently caress over your own companies.
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Jul 7, 2023 19:00
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Its a good sign Russia is sending a message that they are not planning anything. They could be lying, but the IAEA inspects would likely be able to spot anything.
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Jul 7, 2023 19:06
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CommieGIR posted:Its a good sign Russia is sending a message that they are not planning anything. They could be lying, but the IAEA inspects would likely be able to spot anything. I wouldn't be so unbeat given didn't see rooftops where satellites spotted new stuff recently.
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Jul 7, 2023 20:26
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I can see how it can be viewed positively, but I also don't see Russia making any effort to deny being responsible for something that has yet to happen unless they expect it to happen. Ukraine sure as poo poo isn't going to blow it up, so the easiest thing in the world would be to just ignore the accusations and let the plant's continued unexplodedness demonstrate your innocence.
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Jul 7, 2023 20:32
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OddObserver posted:I wouldn't be so unbeat given didn't see rooftops where satellites spotted new stuff recently. Nobody has been able to verify any of that. Satellites spotted something, but its not clear what.
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Jul 7, 2023 20:58
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PurpleXVI posted:Meanwhile, in war news... How does that work? Is your employer paying your wage and sending you off for ‘training’ and kitting you out with gear? I.e. old school raising a company to support your liege/patrician? “Who were you with in the war?” “I fought with the 1st Acme Construction Company Infantry Company, 3rd Dry Wall and Framing Trades Battalion” Or telling you that if you don’t enlist you’re fired? Because, all things being equal I’d rather be fired than enlist in Russias army to fight in Ukraine and it doesn’t seem like a hard choice.
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Jul 7, 2023 21:31
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Murgos posted:How does that work? Is your employer paying your wage and sending you off for ‘training’ and kitting you out with gear? I.e. old school raising a company to support your liege/patrician? Well, if they're not completely idiotic, what they do is they pay some poor desperate sods off the street to sign up and say that the Acme Construction Company sent them, perhaps paying a bit more now, but not losing their own competent/experienced employees(without which said government contracts would suddenly be worth much less). The Russian government doesn't care where these new mobilized come from, only that they're not officially mobilized by the government, and thus they can pretend they're not panicking and essentially conscripting people.
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Jul 7, 2023 21:37
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I am concerned that's going to lead to a bunch of central asian immigrants getting volunteered to go to war
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Jul 7, 2023 21:37
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CommieGIR posted:Nobody has been able to verify any of that. Satellites spotted something, but its not clear what. Russian privates wondering if they have to hide the rooftop booze and ping pong break area.
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Jul 7, 2023 21:39
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I am concerned that's going to lead to a bunch of central asian immigrants getting volunteered to go to war I believe they already opened the gates for this a while back, back in October of last year I think we started hearing about it, including officials scamming them into signing long-winded documents with a "I will fight for Russia, lmao"-rider hidden somewhere in there.
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Jul 7, 2023 21:41
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PurpleXVI posted:the Ukrainians are the ones who get to decide what cost they'll bear to liberate their country, not anyone else. Herman Merman fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jul 7, 2023 |
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Jul 7, 2023 22:05
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or we can let them prosecute a defensive war that is for their very survival how they see fit
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Jul 7, 2023 22:13
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poo poo, the first edit/quote mishap I've had in over a decade of posting
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Jul 7, 2023 22:14
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Herman Merman posted:This is a very naive view, a caricature almost. Ukrainians aren't a unitary hivemind. Ukrainians don't get to decide this, their leadership does. The people who make the decisions and the people who die as the result are not the same people. The democratical institutions in Ukraine are partly suspended because of the war, so they can't even kick out their current leadership if they're unhappy about it. It absolutely is morally the right thing for Ukraine's allies to say no to any bad ideas they might have. Are you talking about the suspended political parties or something else?
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Jul 7, 2023 22:32
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LtCol J. Krusinski posted:This is a ridiculous assertion.
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Jul 7, 2023 22:34
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Herman Merman posted:This is a very naive view, a caricature almost. Ukrainians aren't a unitary hivemind. Ukrainians don't get to decide this, their leadership does. The people who make the decisions and the people who die as the result are not the same people. The democratical institutions in Ukraine are partly suspended because of the war, so they can't even kick out their current leadership if they're unhappy about it. It absolutely is morally the right thing for Ukraine's allies to say no to any bad ideas they might have. Everything I've seen indicates that the Ukrainian public is massively in favor of the current government. Democratic processes are suspended, but it hardly indicates illegitimacy. It's morally right for Ukraine's allies to decide on the disposition of their [the allies'] own weapons because they own them, not out of a paternalistic disregard for the current Ukrainian government.
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Jul 7, 2023 22:35
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I thought they only banned the parties that were like the We Love Putin Party, We Want To Kiss Putin On The Forehead Party, and Russia Please Come Eat My Face Party. Which is a form of democratic restriction, I suppose.
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Jul 7, 2023 22:49
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Nessus posted:I thought they only banned the parties that were like the We Love Putin Party, We Want To Kiss Putin On The Forehead Party, and Russia Please Come Eat My Face Party. Which is a form of democratic restriction, I suppose. I believe elections are suspended during the war (as required by their constitution) Edit: Technically it's the state of emergency, not the war per se EasilyConfused fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 7, 2023 |
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Jul 7, 2023 22:53
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Nessus posted:I thought they only banned the parties that were like the We Love Putin Party, We Want To Kiss Putin On The Forehead Party, and Russia Please Come Eat My Face Party. Which is a form of democratic restriction, I suppose. I thought elections were temporarily suspended since they can't hold elections in all the occupied areas, but I don't remember exactly
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Jul 7, 2023 22:53
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EasilyConfused posted:I believe elections are suspended during the war (as required by their constitution) Which is reasonable since folks can't safely vote and a good chunk of the population is currently cut off from voting entirely on account of being in occupied territories.
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Jul 7, 2023 22:54
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tiaz posted:I thought elections were temporarily suspended since they can't hold elections in all the occupied areas, but I don't remember exactly Yeah it's martial law, it's in the constitution That's not the same as the bans, which were as stated, all Pro-russian outlets with little to no representation in the Duma or previous popular votes e;fb
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Jul 7, 2023 22:56
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I am concerned that's going to lead to a bunch of central asian immigrants getting volunteered to go to war They’ve already been recruiting in Kazakhstan itself, to the point that Kazakhstan had to pass a new law specifically making that illegal.
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Jul 7, 2023 23:00
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Say, did that nuke plant ever go up or was that just a bunch of chicken littleing?
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Jul 8, 2023 00:52
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Page 777... reminds me of the Boeing 777 that russia shot down on Flight MH17, murdering all 298 people aboard. gently caress russia, they deserve each and every cluster bomb hurled down into their trenches. The booby trapped children's toys, mines, UXO, and cluster munitions already used by russia is already an existential nightmare for Ukraine. Discouraging that more may be added to the cleanup, but that's still relatively less than the amount being added by russians every day they hang into occupied territory, so it's sadly the lesser of two evils imho. Catatron Prime fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jul 8, 2023 |
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Jul 8, 2023 00:53
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Say, did that nuke plant ever go up or was that just a bunch of chicken littleing? I'm not sure it's quite chicken-littling... Russia could blow it up for the same reasons they blew up that dam, namely "gently caress you, we do what we want," but it's possible pressure came in. I think it was considered unlikely that it would be a second Chernobyl, or anything close, but it would have hardly been good.
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Jul 8, 2023 01:01
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PurpleXVI posted:(without which said government contracts would suddenly be worth much less). I don't think it's the skilled workforce that's bringing in the money on those contracts, it's more the connections and the grift
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Jul 8, 2023 01:20
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Akratic Method posted:They’ve already been recruiting in Kazakhstan itself, to the point that Kazakhstan had to pass a new law specifically making that illegal. yeah I'm concerned that it has a high probability of being less recruiting and more people getting forcibly volunteered. it's a specifically a very migrant heavy field (albeit one that has struggled with a decreasing flow of migrants since the start of the war) iirc 2/3 of migrants to russia work in construction
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Jul 8, 2023 01:27
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Nessus posted:I think it was considered unlikely that it would be a second Chernobyl, or anything close, but it would have hardly been good. It would be an awful ecological disaster, but hopefully more localized to the plant itself and the immediate surroundings. But the plant would be rendered unusable forever, and that's an ecological disaster in itself. Ukraine has already lost 357MW of clean energy generation capacity when the Russians blew up the dam. Losing the plant would remove a massive 5700 MW of carbon-free energy generating capacity from the grid. Where would the replacement energy come from? In the short term likely coal and gas.
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