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Ynglaur posted:Unless you're a committed pacifist, nobody's hands are clean the moment you choose to defend yourself or another. What's your point? Some weapons are obviously worse than others, which is why civilised countries ban the use of cluster munitions, and why people like Human Rights Watch call for them not to be used in Ukraine. https://twitter.com/hrw/status/1676937047326466048
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Jul 8, 2023 12:04
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I don't, but I also don't want to allow him to win said war of aggression and move on to planning his next one There is no reason to believe 10,000 cluster bombs will win this war, or even win it any quicker. But we have lots of experience at seeing the effects of unexploded ordnance on civilian populations. Thousands of Ukrainian children are going to die if these weapons are used.
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Jul 8, 2023 12:05
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Enjoy posted:Putin is a dictator waging an illegal war of aggression. Why do you want the rest of the world to follow his moral standards? you may be confused, but I send a letter to Putin to make him stop using cluster munitions, so Ukraine can then stop using them, too isn't this exactly what you wanted? Enjoy posted:Some weapons are obviously worse than others, which is why civilised countries ban the use of cluster munitions, and why people like Human Rights Watch call for them not to be used in Ukraine. Seriously, everyone knows cluster munitions are bad, but war involves a lot of bad stuff. Saying the weaker side, the one being invaded, should stop using a useful weapon because it's "immoral" is a completely insane stance. The Human Rights Watch does good work, but I'm assuming stuff like this won't get them many Ukrainian supporters these days.
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Jul 8, 2023 12:12
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Libluini posted:you may be confused, but I send a letter to Putin to make him stop using cluster munitions, so Ukraine can then stop using them, too It is absolutely immoral to use a weapon that will kill and maim thousands of children, even if the army which uses the weapon is "weak".
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Jul 8, 2023 12:15
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Enjoy posted:So for every cluster bomb with 88 submunitions, that's about 2 dud submunitions. If America sends 10,000 and Ukraine fires them all, that's 20,000 dud submunitions. What proportion of dud submunitions are picked up by children, 10%? 50%? You need to take into account the current situation on the front lines. These are areas are intensively mined and Russia has been using cluster munitions extensively for the entire war. 20,000 duds across a 250,000 square km minefield will make a very small difference. The entire contested area will need to be thoroughly de-mined after the war - regardless of whether the US sends these weapons. It won't be perfect, ordinance will be missed and it is guaranteed that some civilians will die, but are those likely to be due to dud bomblets left scattered across the surface or due to buried mines and traps? The idea that children would pick up 10% of the dud bomblets after trained demining teams had missed them is absurd. Farmers ploughing their fields are going to be at extreme risk for many years, they will account for the majority of civilians harmed. They're not stacking these things up in playgrounds. There is absolutely a good chance that civilians will be killed or injured by these bomblets, make no mistake, but the situation is already horrendous and there's only so much hand wringing you can justify about this. And what's the alternative? The cost of inaction? To avoid this increase in UXO you would allow the war to drag on how much longer? 6 months? A year? More? At the cost of how many civilian lives? These decisions aren't made in a vacuum, inaction is a choice with its own cost.
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Jul 8, 2023 12:21
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Chalks posted:To avoid this increase in UXO you would allow the war to drag on how much longer? 6 months? A year? More? At the cost of how many civilian lives? The idea that these weapons, designed for stopping columns of Soviet tanks crossing the Fulda gap, will shorten the war by 6 months is ridiculous. These weapons are being sent because America doesn't have enough conventional 155mm shells to send. They are not an optimal tool for the job, they are a desperation measure.
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Jul 8, 2023 12:24
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Enjoy posted:The idea that these weapons, designed for stopping columns of Soviet tanks crossing the Fulda gap, will shorten the war by 6 months is ridiculous. Yes, which still gives them more war ending utility than the alternative scenario of nothing It's embarrassing that the west can't provide more modern ordnance, but that's sadly the current situation.
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Jul 8, 2023 12:29
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Enjoy posted:The idea that these weapons, designed for stopping columns of Soviet tanks crossing the Fulda gap, will shorten the war by 6 months is ridiculous. Sorry, weapons designed for stopping columns of Soviet tanks will be ineffective against columns of Russian tanks? Did their rebranding cause some dramatic immunity to explosives? Is the letter Z a magical rune? These weapons were designed for the exact scenario that Ukraine faces in this war. What an insane way to phrase your argument. Ukraine's big weakness in its current counteroffensive is lack of artillery. Cluster munitions are an incredibly effective artillery weapon that can make up for that many times over. It is not a difficult to argue that this will speed up the counteroffensive and therefore shorten the war. Even if the war is only shortened by a few weeks, you're saving civilian lives. If Russia wasn't a barbaric nation bombing coffee shops and civilian homes every week then maybe you could argue differently. Chalks fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Jul 8, 2023 |
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Jul 8, 2023 12:32
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Chalks posted:Sorry, weapons designed for stopping columns of Soviet tanks will be ineffective against columns of Russian tanks? Did their rebranding cause some dramatic immunity to explosives? Is the letter Z a magical rune? Ukraine is conducting offensive actions against dug-in infantry, they are not conducting defensive actions against massed armour in the open. Chalks posted:Ukraine's big weakness in its current counteroffensive is lack of artillery. Cluster munitions are an incredibly effective artillery weapon that can make up for that many times over. It is not a difficult argument to make that this will speed up the counteroffensive and therefore shorten the war. We've been told this half a dozen times about different Western-supplied weapons systems. Until now, those wonder weapons didn't have the potential to kill and maim thousands of Ukrainian children after the war.
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Jul 8, 2023 12:34
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Enjoy posted:Ukraine is conducting offensive actions against dug-in infantry, they are not conducting defensive actions against massed armour in the open. Just wait until he sees what happens to infantry in a trench system when its hit by a cluster munition. Also I guess when Russia withdraws to other defensive positions they use teleporters or something? And they never counterattack? Also supply convoys, presumably immune to high explosive area denial.
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Jul 8, 2023 12:38
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US-imposed limitations on use of donated weapons systems have directly contributed to hundreds of civilian deaths.
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Jul 8, 2023 12:38
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Enjoy posted:It is absolutely immoral to use a weapon that will kill and maim thousands of children, even if the army which uses the weapon is "weak". you keep mentioning children, is killing adults perfectly fine for you? there seems to be a misunderstanding happening here, with certain posters apparently believing this awful poo poo is aimed at civilians, not just killing them in larger numbers than usual purely by accident, as if that isn't actually worse than this insane fantasy about "child-killing ammunition" Since most people in real life don't believe themselves to be military experts, the Süddeutsche made an article trying to explain cluster munitions. It's in German, of course. But translation in this day and age is easy, thankfully. Conclusion: It's awful, and no-one should use it. But it is getting used, a lot. Making a decision about supplying Ukraine or not is going to be hard. NATO and more Cluster Munition Talk From further down below this Süddeutsche-Newsticker Germany is torn about the cluster ammunition question: Part of the government would prefer to refuse US-supply of cluster munitions in favor of German cruise-missiles and more support (logistics and training) for the Netherlands and Denmark and their jetfighter-alliance for Ukraine. Would be funny if Germany ends up agreeing to a deal that gives our Taurus-missiles to Ukraine in exchange for a ban on cluster munitions. Arguably, a 500km-range bunker-busting cruise missile plus the jets to launch them from is a lot more useful than warcrime: the weapon
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Jul 8, 2023 12:39
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yeah war kills kids, you know what would stop the kids dying as soon as humanly possible? russia ceasing to wage a genocidal war of conquest. this literally could be over tomorrow if russia gave a single gently caress about the lives of everyone involved
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Jul 8, 2023 12:40
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Herstory Begins Now posted:yeah war kills kids, you know what would stop the kids dying as soon as humanly possible? russia ceasing to wage a genocidal war of conquest. this literally could be over tomorrow if russia gave a single gently caress about the lives of everyone involved This kind of petty and spiteful attitude is literally childish. Careful you don't pick up toys with ribbens in the forest, could be an unexploded submunition.
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Jul 8, 2023 12:45
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Libluini posted:you keep mentioning children, is killing adults perfectly fine for you? Killing children is generally seen as an especially cruel thing by people who aren't sociopaths.
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Jul 8, 2023 12:46
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Libluini posted:
Maybe they should reflect on why 500 days into a war they can't produce a noticeable amount of conventional shells, despite manufacturing being supposedly their thing.
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Jul 8, 2023 12:47
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funny how we learn that the US is about to send another weapon system to Ukraine that might help them and suddenly there's a guy with a Z avatar pretending to be very concerned about Ukrainian children
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Jul 8, 2023 12:49
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Enjoy posted:We've been told this half a dozen times about different Western-supplied weapons systems. Until now, those wonder weapons didn't have the potential to kill and maim thousands of Ukrainian children after the war. Buddy, what do you think happens to an artillery round or switchblade drone that fails to go off an is found by a child after the war? Who convinced you that the arms supplies thus far were child safe?? The conversation here is about the scale of UXO but you're talking about it like everything is fine until the US provides these weapons. It's completely detached from reality.
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Jul 8, 2023 12:49
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Chalks posted:Buddy, what do you think happens to an artillery round or switchblade drone that fails to go off an is found by a child after the war? Who convinced you that the arms supplies thus far were child safe?? Are Human Rights Watch detached from reality? Why did half the world ban cluster bombs?
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Jul 8, 2023 12:50
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Enjoy posted:Yes no poo poo, how does that mean it's okay to kill future Ukrainian children with unexploded ordnance? You're right, it's not okay, But maybe don't act like the ordinance being sent right now Even amounts to a drop in the ocean of cluster munitions that are already on the field right now. You're literally trying to demonize Ukraine for adding what's effectively a few extra mines to an existing minefield, as if the minefield isn't going to be getting people killed for years regardless of adding a few more mines to it or not. The extra civilian casualties that'll come from the cluster munitions in question are not even a tiny fraction of the amount of lives that would be saved if it lets Ukraine win the war any earlier. I would take that any day of the week and tell my kids to stay inside.
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Jul 8, 2023 12:57
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Enjoy posted:Are Human Rights Watch detached from reality? Yes, like so many other organisations they've become detached from reality since they only call out Ukrainians defending themselves but not Russia, notice the tweet you posted earlier makes no mention of Russia having used cluster ammunition for 9 years in Ukraine. Them, the international red cross, amnesty international and many more can go gently caress themselves, they're useless and pro Russians .
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Jul 8, 2023 12:59
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Enjoy posted:Are Human Rights Watch detached from reality? Human Rights Watch made some extremely compelling arguments against cluster munitions 16 years ago. To quote: quote:The vast majority of cluster munitions stockpiled today have limited, if any, utility in In 2007 that was pretty convincing. It is impossible to have a peer conflict in the modern era and cluster weapons are very poorly suited to asymmetric warfare. They should therefore be banned due to their impact on civilians, who would otherwise be able to recover quickly in the aftermath of the war with limited UXO. Many people agreed, many countries agreed. Then 2022 rolled around and holy poo poo they could not have been more wrong. The entire basis of their argument, gone, just like that. So yeah, frankly, their insistence on sticking to this argument is pretty detached from reality. I mean I get it, they probably want to ban all the other weapons being used in the war too and this is the only one they got any traction with so they're like a dog with a bone. War is bad and the best plan is to ban it, I totally agree.
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Jul 8, 2023 12:59
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Enjoy posted:There is no reason to believe 10,000 cluster bombs will win this war, or even win it any quicker. How do you know that? What credentials do you have to make such claim?
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Jul 8, 2023 12:59
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Atreiden posted:Yes, like so many other organisations they've become detached from reality since they only call out Ukrainians defending themselves but not Russia, notice the tweet you posted earlier makes no mention of Russia having used cluster ammunition for 9 years in Ukraine. Them, the international red cross, amnesty international and many more can go gently caress themselves, they're useless and pro Russians . That's just because you focus on the tweets calling for Ukraine to respect human rights and ignore their tweets and reports on Russia. You shouldn't do that, it's making GBS threads on good organisations out of ignorance.
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Jul 8, 2023 13:02
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Nenonen posted:How do you know that? What credentials do you have to make such claim? I am entirely uncredentialed, I am basing that off the fact we heard similar claims for the other weapon systems which were actually used in roles they were suited for, and now we're hearing it about a weapon which is a stop-gap for when the conventional 155mm shells arrive
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Jul 8, 2023 13:03
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Nenonen posted:That's just because you focus on the tweets calling for Ukraine to respect human rights and ignore their tweets and reports on Russia. You shouldn't do that, it's making GBS threads on good organisations out of ignorance. nope, I've seen their reports and how they're always afraid to call out Russia.
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Jul 8, 2023 13:05
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Enjoy posted:Ukraine is conducting offensive actions against dug-in infantry, they are not conducting defensive actions against massed armour in the open. Scatterable mines are used in offensive operations to fix/turn/block an enemy counterattack or attempts to concentrate defense in an area. It's a gamble for the attacker though since they now have to deal with a minefield to continue their advance.
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Jul 8, 2023 13:05
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Enjoy posted:I am entirely uncredentialed, I am basing that off the fact we heard similar claims for the other weapon systems which were actually used in roles they were suited for, and now we're hearing it about a weapon which is a stop-gap for when the conventional 155mm shells arrive Wait, how could you possibly know that things like HIMARS have not shortened the war? Are you running A/B testing in an alternate reality where they didn't get HIMARS, and it turns out that the war plays out exactly the same?
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Jul 8, 2023 13:05
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Atreiden posted:nope, I've seen their reports and how they're always afraid to call out Russia. I really doubt that you are reading them earnestly...
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Jul 8, 2023 13:06
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Both nations involved have publicly stated that they have already used these munitions in this theater and have no problem continuing to do so; that's the end of the conversation. Assuming your "points" are being made in good faith (admittedly, hard to do) you're getting really offended on someone else's behalf. It will be up to Ukraine and Russia to be aware of the consequences of their decisions in the course of the war, whichever way it turns out.
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Jul 8, 2023 13:07
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Chalks posted:Wait, how could you possibly know that things like HIMARS have not shortened the war? Yes
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Jul 8, 2023 13:07
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Nenonen posted:I really doubt that you are reading them earnestly... good for you I guess.
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Jul 8, 2023 13:07
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Vaginaface posted:Both nations involved have publicly stated that they have already used these munitions in this theater and have no problem continuing to do so; that's the end of the conversation. Governments can take actions which I find immoral and which cause harm to civilian populations in the future
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Jul 8, 2023 13:07
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Enjoy posted:Yes Seriously though, you don't seem to be able to tell the difference between the war being shorter and the war being over.
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Jul 8, 2023 13:08
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OddObserver posted:US-imposed limitations on use of donated weapons systems have directly contributed to hundreds of civilian deaths. I agree. I'd prefer cluster munitions were banned in the United States, as well I would have preferred that Western fighter jets and fighter bombers with a large stockpile of missiles and bombs were provided so this wouldn't be a thing at all. But they weren't, and cluster munitions are an instant and immediate weapon system that can effectively work against the problems that the Ukrainian army is facing. There is absolutely going to be a post-war humanitarian cost, but there is a humanitarian cost on both sides right now for russian soldiers to remain dug in defensive positions. If there is a different weapon system that can deliver similar results that doesn't require months of training and tremendous logistics to operate. Or beyond parameters the United States wants to set (no long range missiles into russian territory) I'd love to hear about it because that would absolutely be preferable.
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Jul 8, 2023 13:10
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OddObserver posted:Maybe they should reflect on why 500 days into a war they can't produce a noticeable amount of conventional shells, despite manufacturing being supposedly their thing. After decades of neglect, and without any big wars where at least one side wants German stuff in large numbers, that's what capitalism gets you. But things are slowly changing now. Rheinmetall now has their own production-line of 35mm shells and is producing at near capacity for conventional artillery shells. They expect production of artillery shells to go up from 450k (this year) to 600k next year. And while the corporation is like "international demand is high" about the question of who is buying all those 155mm shells, it's not a secret nearly all those shells are going to Ukraine. Since the new 35mm line is now up and running, Rheinmetall expects to deliver 40-60k Gepard-shells this year, out of an already ordered 300k. So while it took a while, considering this is the German production alone, it seems Europe can definitely support Ukraine indefinitely and in growing numbers each year. By the time Trump gets reelected, he'd have to declare war on Europe to prevent Russia from losing
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Jul 8, 2023 13:12
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Enjoy posted:I am entirely uncredentialed, I am basing that off the fact we heard similar claims for the other weapon systems which were actually used in roles they were suited for, and now we're hearing it about a weapon which is a stop-gap for when the conventional 155mm shells arrive e: added quote You've mentioned this twice. Is there some premise somewhere that cluster munitions are sent because of a shell shortage vs an additional tool appropriate for the situation?
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Jul 8, 2023 13:14
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notwithoutmyanus posted:e: added quote https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...ake-sullivan-5/ "We have provided Ukraine with a historic amount of unitary artillery rounds, and we are ramping up domestic production of these rounds. We’ve already seen substantial increases in production, but this process will continue to take time, and it will be critical to provide Ukraine with a bridge of supplies while our domestic production is ramped up. We will not leave Ukraine defenseless at any point in this conflict, period."
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Jul 8, 2023 13:17
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Enjoy posted:https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...ake-sullivan-5/ Okay. But that doesn't say anything about cluster munitions being 'a bridge'. In fact their argument has been that the cluster munitions will boost their chances to win in general.
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Jul 8, 2023 13:28
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Kchama posted:Okay. You think that, in between the paragraphs where Jake Sullivan talks about cluster munitions being sent to Ukraine, he started talking about a completely unrelated topic? What do you think he was calling "a bridge of supplies"?
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Jul 8, 2023 13:30
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