(Thread IKs:
weg, Toxic Mental)
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Bad news for Russia's propagandist attempts to demonize Ukrainian nationalism - People who call themselves Banderites do not share his ideologies and probably have never read any of his writings, and the nationalists who pogromed the Jews of Lviv weren't out to exterminate, they were out to combat their political enemies https://kyivindependent.com/ukraines-true-history-how-nationalist-movements-paved-ukraines-way-to-freedom/ How nationalist movements paved Ukraine's way to freedom July 7, 2023 6:50 PM 11 min read ... And the first name that comes to mind when discussing this period is that of Stepan Bandera (1909-1959), one of Ukraine's most controversial figures, who is celebrated or hated – depending on who's talking. Motyl believes that's because Bandera was both made into a symbol of the nationalist movement by the Ukrainians and because he was a threat to the Soviets, which made him very easy to demonize. However, his influence over modern-day nationalism and Ukrainian society has been greatly exaggerated by Russia to discredit post-EuroMaidan Ukraine, scholars argue. "Nobody cares about the real Bandera," Yermolenko said. "Nobody reads his texts anymore, nobody believes in this hierarchical and far-right ideology, which existed in the 1930s." That's not Ukraine's current ideology, he said. "Ukraine's current ideology is much more horizontal, dependent on specific communities, specific people, much more decentralized, much more self-organized." And it's clear that people who call themselves Banderites do not share his ideologies and probably have never read any of his writings, Yermolenko said. "It's like wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt without knowing who Che Guevara was. (It's) just because it looks nice, and (Bandera is) a symbol of the underground resistance to the Soviets." ... In Russia, Ukrainian nationalism is associated with anti-Semitism, and the Kremlin's propagandists often point to the Lviv pogrom of 1941, an outbreak of anti-Jewish violence that began on the afternoon of June 30 and ended on the evening of July 1. Instigated by the German occupiers, the wave of violence saw the spontaneous participation of the non-Jewish local civilian population and officers of the newly formed OUN-B. The discovery in city prisons of the bodies of Soviet prisoners, victims of mass shootings committed by the NKVD (People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs), the forerunner to the KGB (Soviet Security Service), during the first days of the war, was used by Nazi propaganda: Lviv Jews were blamed for the NKVD shootings, which resulted in the pogrom. For Motyl, however, calling the nationalist movement anti-Semitic is a crude generalization, as it wasn't anti-Semitic in its ideology and practice. "Obviously, there were anti-Semitic Ukrainians," he said, adding that some Ukrainian nationalists collaborated with the Nazis. But for many Ukrainians, the issue wasn't racial but rather political, Motyl said. "The question was: Are they, or are they not, loyal to Ukraine?" "The (nationalists) weren't out to exterminate, they were out to combat their political enemies," he said while acknowledging the presence of anti-Semites in the ranks of the OUN. "To put it a little crudely, but not inaccurately: Ukrainians were peasants and Jews were kind of the middle class and the upper class were either Poles or Russians," he said. When the peasant class rebels, it tends to attack the middle class first, before the larger authority, Motyl said, which explains the animosity against some of the Jewish population at the time.
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Jul 9, 2023 05:38
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Tunicate posted:Thesis: He's doing a great job I think Zelensky traveling to these incredibly dangerous locations at great risk is a great propaganda tactic too. It highlights his opponents very well. Joe Biden has been closer to the front lines than Vladamir Putin at this point.
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Jul 9, 2023 05:46
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fizzy posted:Bad news for Russia's propagandist attempts to demonize Ukrainian nationalism - People who call themselves Banderites do not share his ideologies and probably have never read any of his writings, and the nationalists who pogromed the Jews of Lviv weren't out to exterminate, they were out to combat their political enemies ...no. good lord. if we don't give stalinists the time of day when they try to disown atrocity, we don't give it to loving banderites either. This is fash apologia.
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Jul 9, 2023 05:49
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yea thats just a weird thing to say fizzy
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Jul 9, 2023 05:52
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fizzy posted:Bad news for Russia's propagandist attempts to demonize Ukrainian nationalism - People who call themselves Banderites do not share his ideologies and probably have never read any of his writings, and the nationalists who pogromed the Jews of Lviv weren't out to exterminate, they were out to combat their political enemies Yeah, that's not it. That thinking excuses any genocide that isn't simply 'we hate these people and their culture'.
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Jul 9, 2023 05:59
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Samovar posted:Call my cynical, but I do wonder why Edrogan released the prisoners in the first place. I wouldn't trust it to be from the kindness of his own heart. His son in law own bayraktar drone manufacturer. They just struck a multi year deal for supply.
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Jul 9, 2023 06:04
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BrassRoots posted:His son in law own bayraktar drone manufacturer. They just struck a multi year deal for supply. Ah.
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Jul 9, 2023 06:06
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Ronwayne posted:...no. good lord. if we don't give stalinists the time of day when they try to disown atrocity, we don't give it to loving banderites either. This is fash apologia. well, I think the comparison to Che Guevara is probably more apt. I would probably be somewhat suspect of a dude who shows up wearing a Che shirt, but it would be silly for me to go "so you support capital punishment for deserters???" to the guy. in a similar vein, while there probably are people who really really like Bandera and do follow his ideology, I don't see a reason to disbelieve a local (especially a scholar native to the country) who says a lot of people who are vaguely into it don't know much about him and are really supporters of national identity and independence. It's fair to push back on said vaguely-into-it people with, like, "do you think there's a less negatively suggestive symbol you could choose to demonstrate your commitment to national sovereignty", but I think drawing equivalency to stalinists (for the vaguely into it people) is a little excessive. e: and to be clear I have no idea of the relative population sizes of 'vaguely into it' vs 'True Believer' in this case, I want to be abundantly clear I am not trying to claim that true believers do not exist at all. tiaz fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Jul 9, 2023 |
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Jul 9, 2023 06:36
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tiaz posted:well, I think the comparison to Che Guevara is probably more apt. I would probably be somewhat suspect of a dude who shows up wearing a Che shirt, but it would be silly for me to go "so you support capital punishment for deserters???" to the guy. in a similar vein, while there probably are people who really really like Bandera and do follow his ideology, I don't see a reason to disbelieve a local (especially a scholar native to the country) who says a lot of people who are vaguely into it don't know much about him and are really supporters of national identity and independence. Whoever invented the Che shirt was a genius. Anyone who wears one shows they legitimately don't understand Che Guevara's philosophy (anti-materialism, anti-capitalist) or the irony of the situation. And basically shows how Che ultimately failed.
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Jul 9, 2023 06:44
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fizzy posted:garbage 
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Jul 9, 2023 07:04
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How have people not caught on to fizzy's gimmick yet?
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Jul 9, 2023 07:07
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beer_war posted:How have people not caught on to fizzy's gimmick yet? Nobody reads that poo poo.
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Jul 9, 2023 07:09
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You guys are actually reading his posts?
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Jul 9, 2023 07:09
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Mulva posted:Nobody reads that poo poo. Clearly, somebody does!
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Jul 9, 2023 07:13
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The only reason I read this one was it buried the lede. I did not like that.
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Jul 9, 2023 07:16
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Nelson Mandingo posted:Joe Biden has been closer to the front lines than Vladamir Putin at this point. Putin has been to Mariupol that one time. That's about 80 km from the front.
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Jul 9, 2023 07:22
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Bad news for the Russo-Belarussian axis - Poland is wise to their tricks and has taken steps to secure their borders against threats (including potential shenanigans by Wagner) from the Belarus direction. https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...f0850c66ca2ee73 O700 BST Poland has begun moving more than 1,000 troops to the east of the country amid rising concern in the Nato member that the presence of Wagner fighters in Belarus could lead to increased tension on its border. “Over 1,000 soldiers and almost 200 units of equipment from the 12th and 17th Mechanized Brigades are starting to move to the east of the country,” the defence minister, Mariusz Błaszczak, wrote on Twitter. “This is a demonstration of our readiness to respond to attempts at destabilisation near the border of our country.” Last Sunday Poland said it would send 500 police to shore up security at its border with Belarus. Russian president Vladimir Putin’s decision to offer mercenary fighters of Yevgeny Prigozhin’s Wagner group the choice of relocating to Belarus has led to fears among eastern Nato members that their presence will cause greater instability in the region. A senior Wagner commander was quoted as saying on Saturday that mercenaries from the group were preparing to move to Belarus.
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Jul 9, 2023 07:22
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Jul 9, 2023 07:25
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Not a mod in GBS but as a poster here in my opinion a poster shouldn't expect a reader of their post to try and find a way around a pay or login-wall, it's nice as a courtesy do the work and post the info in a form that is readable for everyone. sebmojo posted:Yeah this, it isn't going to be a formal thing unless a gbs mod wants to make it one, but it is good and kind to help people see stuff you're linking. I agree with the sentiment of it being a nice courtesy that should be done, but I also think that quoting a post specifically to say "well obviously I'm not reading that because I don't want to figure out how" is the other side of the coin. I'll shut up about this now, no need to derail.
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Jul 9, 2023 07:28
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the only reason fizzy/catpetter gets away with deliberately posting vile stuff sprinkled into the assortment of unassuming news posts for as long as they do is because the threads they troll are usually too polite to call them out on it, and their MO is just innocuous enough that people usually can convince themselves that fizzy isn't posting provocative and fashy poo poo on purpose. But their rap sheet indicates that, no, sometimes they really do get caught for it mods and iks can manage their threads how they like so it's up to them to decide if any lines get crossed, and if any potential benefits of their gimmick outweigh the bad faith intent behind it
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Jul 9, 2023 07:54
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sorry if you wanted to leave the subject be, I just had to drop my two cents
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Jul 9, 2023 07:55
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Can it even really be called trolling unless people are actually reading the posts If a tree falls in the woods etc
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Jul 9, 2023 07:55
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Runa posted:the only reason fizzy/catpetter gets away with deliberately posting vile stuff sprinkled into the assortment of unassuming news posts for as long as they do is because the threads they troll are usually too polite to call them out on it, and their MO is just innocuous enough that people usually can convince themselves that fizzy isn't posting provocative and fashy poo poo on purpose. But their rap sheet indicates that, no, sometimes they really do get caught for it 100%
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Jul 9, 2023 07:56
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I mean we can just threadban fizzy if he's actually malicious, idgaf. I'd leave that up to the thread's posters though because you're the ones ultimately reading it (or not reading itlol)
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Jul 9, 2023 07:57
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Bad news for Russia - NATO will be there for Ukraine for as long as it takes, and Ukraine still hasn’t thrown into battle much of its best new Western equipment. Source: Wall Street Journal https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-war-counteroffensive-frontlines-russia-add3e4e4 Why the Ukraine Counteroffensive Is Such Slow Going By Ian Lovett and Daniel Michaels July 9, 2023 12:08 am ET ... Ukraine is now attempting to dislodge an entrenched enemy, one of the most daunting operations any military can undertake. Russian troops have spent months building physical defenses that include bunkers, tank traps and minefields—some more than 15 miles deep. In this phase of the war, Ukraine’s lack of resources is proving as much of a challenge as the dug-in Russian defenses. Despite the delivery of new Western weapons in recent months — and a promise by the U.S. Friday to send deadly cluster munitions in the future — Kyiv’s effort to push south through Russian territory toward the Sea of Azov has stalled. Though Ukrainian officials say they are making progress, and have reclaimed a handful of villages in the Zaporizhzhia and Donetsk regions over the past month, they also acknowledge the herculean nature of their task. ... Ukrainian soldiers said the Russians in the Zaporizhzhia region have constructed miles of zigzagging, interconnected trenches, some of them reinforced with concrete, or covered with wood-and-earth roofs so they are difficult to spot using drones. Fields are heavily mined. In at least two cases, Ukrainian soldiers said, the bodies of their killed comrades had been mined as well. “It’s impossible to completely destroy such a well-prepared position before advancing,” said a 38-year-old rifle unit commander in the 108th brigade, who goes by the call sign Vados. To be able to take it, he said, Ukrainian artillery forces would need to first bombard the area and then advance with armored vehicles to bring in infantry. A shortage of tanks and other armored vehicles has made that strategy hard to execute, he said. ... In 1991, before coalition land forces advanced in Operation Desert Storm, the U.S. led a five-week air campaign to wear down Iraqi positions. Ukraine lacks the firepower and air-superiority that America and its partners had in those fights. Kyiv’s air force consists of a small number of Soviet-era fighter jets and helicopters, some supplied by former East Bloc allies now in NATO. The Russians, meanwhile, are deploying advanced Sukhoi fighter jets and Ka-52 helicopters across the southern front. ... At NATO’s summit this week in Lithuania, which Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is slated to attend, alliance leaders will “send the message that we will be there for as long as it takes,” Stoltenberg said. NATO countries are discussing sending Ukraine U.S.-made F-16 fighter jets, but the planes are unlikely to enter the war this year. Lacking F-16s, Ukraine is lobbying allies for shells of all sizes—from machine gun bullets to artillery projectiles. The U.S. recently said it would send Ukraine cluster munitions, which have the potential to kill or wound more Russians. Fired from artillery, the shells spew small bomblets over a wide area. Their downside is that some fail to explode, potentially endangering civilians after a conflict ends. Kyiv is trying to soften the Russian defenses before sending troops in, but doesn’t have enough ammunition to simply flatten Russian-held villages, as the Russians did in Bakhmut and other parts of eastern Ukraine. Instead, Ukrainian troops usually make artillery strikes only if they have confirmed Russian positions with drones. Soldiers said a lack of armored vehicles was also slowing their efforts to advance. Speaking recently from a command post in the Zaporizhzhia region, Vados, the rifle-unit commander, said that his unit had tried to assault a Russian-held village the previous day. As Ukrainian infantry advanced on foot, the Russians moved to surround them. “If we had more vehicles, we could have brought more infantry to the flanks,” Vados, a lieutenant, said. Instead, the unit retreated without taking the village. In the month since the offensive began, Vados said he hasn’t been part of an operation that successfully seized a well-prepared Russian position. Ukraine still hasn’t thrown into battle much of its best new Western equipment. Kyiv has dozens of German-made Leopard 2 tanks, but after several of them got stuck in minefields in early June, they haven’t been seen on the battlefield. Some brigades that were spared from the fighting earlier this year to train on the Western equipment also haven’t been used since the offensive began. Military analysts believe Ukraine is still probing for weak spots before committing the bulk of its Western weaponry. The reconnaissance is difficult because Russians can often see Ukrainians approaching across open ground. ... Ukrainian officials have declined throughout the war to discuss casualty figures. But soldiers on the southern front say that a unit can sometimes lose dozens of men in one assault. A 19-year-old combat medic, who goes by the call sign Bald, said he made three runs to pick up injured comrades during a recent assault, transporting eight men to stabilization points. Earlier in the summer, a mortar hit his car during an evacuation. Another vehicle came to pick up the growing number of wounded. “We had to evacuate the evacuation team,” he said. Ukrainian forces have shot down some of Russia’s helicopters in recent weeks. One soldier from an antiaircraft unit near the border of the Zaporizhzhia and Donetsk regions said Russian choppers sometimes fly within 5 miles of Ukrainian troops. The proximity improves Russian attackers’ accuracy, but also leaves them vulnerable. The soldier said he shot down two in one week last month, using Soviet-era antiaircraft systems. Still, infantry say the aircrafts remain a menace. “We don’t have proper air defense systems to deal with the threat,” said Dmytro, a 40-year-old platoon commander in the 108th brigade. “When we’re warned that an enemy plane has taken off, the only way to deal with it is to take cover.” The region of mostly flat, open fields separated by thin treelines offers little protection. In the spring, some troops who fought in the area questioned whether an offensive could succeed here, given the landscape. The difficulty of the task hasn’t been a surprise, Lt. Col. Telehin said. “We knew that to be able to move forward against such well prepared defenses,” he said, “we’d need experience, resources and surprise.” (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 9, 2023 07:57
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lol Okay you're threadbanned bitch, that's enough of whatever this was lmao
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Jul 9, 2023 07:58
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lol
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Jul 9, 2023 08:03
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Toxic Mental posted:I mean we can just threadban fizzy if he's actually malicious, idgaf. I'd leave that up to the thread's posters though because you're the ones ultimately reading it (or not reading itlol) As you've seen, threadbanning Catpetter is always correct.
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Jul 9, 2023 08:16
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Kchama posted:As you've seen, threadbanning Catpetter is always correct. it upsets the mobiks though
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Jul 9, 2023 08:21
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Toxic Mental posted:I mean we can just threadban fizzy if he's actually malicious, idgaf. I'd leave that up to the thread's posters though because you're the ones ultimately reading it (or not reading itlol) yes do it he adds less than nothing E: Toxic Mental posted:lol Okay you're threadbanned bitch, that's enough of whatever this was lmao tyvm
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Jul 9, 2023 08:27
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do not thread ban the catpetter, his posting in CSPAM will only intensify if he has no other outlets
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Jul 9, 2023 08:27
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Starsfan posted:do not thread ban the catpetter, his posting in CSPAM will only intensify if he has no other outlets good
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Jul 9, 2023 08:31
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Starsfan posted:do not thread ban the catpetter, his posting in CSPAM will only intensify if he has no other outlets Mashallah
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Jul 9, 2023 08:34
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Starsfan posted:do not thread ban the catpetter, his posting in CSPAM will only intensify if he has no other outlets Can we double threadban him somehow?
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Jul 9, 2023 08:34
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beer_war posted:Can we double threadban him somehow? Light the signal fires, warn GiP and D&D
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Jul 9, 2023 08:35
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Starsfan posted:do not thread ban the catpetter, his posting in CSPAM will only intensify if he has no other outlets Is that physically possible?
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Jul 9, 2023 08:36
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Rust Martialis posted:Mashallah And the creeks don't rise.
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Jul 9, 2023 08:57
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Rust Martialis posted:Light the signal fires, warn GiP and D&D he was already threadbanned from D&D lol
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Jul 9, 2023 08:59
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Starsfan posted:do not thread ban the catpetter, his posting in CSPAM will only intensify if he has no other outlets why would I give a single poo poo what happens to your moron enclave? spankmeister posted:I agree with the sentiment of it being a nice courtesy that should be done, but I also think that quoting a post specifically to say "well obviously I'm not reading that because I don't want to figure out how" is the other side of the coin. I think of it kind of like stripping tracking elements from URLs (e.g. instagram's ?igshid=BASE64). It's nice to do but it isn't mandatory. threadreaderapp has a site where you can enter a parent link like that and it'll either pull it or already has and will just show you all the stuff. It'd be ideal to get a link to that straight away but it's not that big an ask to go do it for curmudgeons like myself who refuse twitter accounts.
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Jul 9, 2023 09:28
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tiaz posted:why would I give a single poo poo what happens to your moron enclave? tiaz posted:I think of it kind of like stripping tracking elements from URLs (e.g. instagram's ?igshid=BASE64). It's nice to do but it isn't mandatory.
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Jul 9, 2023 09:50
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