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The planetary fortress is very powerful with tons of health and lots of damage. I've watched youtubers basically go that the choice is so slanted towards the PF over the perdition turret that it's not even a choice.
Poil fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Jul 9, 2023 |
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Jul 9, 2023 11:58
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FoolyCharged posted:All right, time to go grab the goliath. Counterpoint: They share ground weapon sounds with another unit and it's like getting tickled with a malfunctioning water hose  . Pitch that thing down 10 semitones and make me think it's actually an autocannon (Also make it have better DPS, probably by shooting faster).Omobono posted:Yeah I don't see much point in the planetary fortress. Is the other CC upgrade available in the campaign? I'm actually going to bat for the PF here, I think that it's better than the Perdition Turret by a fair margin, especially because of the last few missions. A Perdition Turret actually does less DPS than a Planetary, a Planetary has a 40 damage cannon that works against units with armour much better, it provides the same AOE, and it has 3x the health and armour of a fully upgraded bunker. Couple that with an upgrade that will come up soon, and I genuinely think that the PF is a better investment than the Perdition turret in holding a defensive line, even at the cost.
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Jul 9, 2023 12:13
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Goliaths, like so many other units, just feel so wimpy in SC2 since they lack their much better SC1 sounds.
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Jul 9, 2023 12:32
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I feel like I got robbed of Tosh. Because the game kept beating it over the head that Tosh was a insane mass murderer but actually no he isn't any worse then Nova herself.
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Jul 9, 2023 13:31
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It is not a subtle plotline. completely stinks of being written and rewritten until any spark of originality was dulled.
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Jul 9, 2023 13:34
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Goliaths! I wish they were available in multiplayer, I love them.
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Jul 9, 2023 13:52
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By popular demand posted:It is not a subtle plotline. He's also a character that showed up in a comic that came out to retcon the cancelled game Starcraft Ghost's story into the normal story. I personally dislike adding characters from comics unless it's done well since most people will not have read it and will confuse the story, like how Assassin's Creed also did with a few of it's characters.
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Jul 9, 2023 16:35
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By popular demand posted:It is not a subtle plotline. I feel like the game keeps trying to make Raynor and company a bit edgy and morally ambiguous - Hanson is possibly a mad scientist with an unhealthy interest in the Zerg, Tosh is possibly a murderous pirate and completely crazy, Tychus is an all-around dirtbag - but then keeps pulling back (with one potential exception). I get the impression that someone wanted the Terran campaign to feel like a gang of, well, outlaws and antiheroes on the run before someone decided to make it a very simplistic heroic rebels versus evil empire plot.
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Jul 9, 2023 16:40
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Cythereal posted:
Having the plot be more advanced than just what we got might be too much for the Blizzard writing team though, they're not very good at making plots that make sense.
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Jul 9, 2023 16:52
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Koorisch posted:He's also a character that showed up in a comic that came out to retcon the cancelled game Starcraft Ghost's story into the normal story. On the flip side, the game gives you all the context on Tosh's background that you really need. You're never left feeling like you NEED the context from the comic to know who this guy is. You're not left with a feeling of "Did I miss something? Who is this character they apparently expect me to know?" It's easy to believe that Tosh was a new character invented for Starcraft 2, and that's exactly what I believed for years before I learned about that comic. In short, his presence in that comic is complementary to his appearance in Starcraft 2, rather than being required reading.
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Jul 9, 2023 16:53
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Cythereal posted:I feel like the game keeps trying to make Raynor and company a bit edgy and morally ambiguous - Hanson is possibly a mad scientist with an unhealthy interest in the Zerg, Tosh is possibly a murderous pirate and completely crazy, Tychus is an all-around dirtbag - but then keeps pulling back (with one potential exception). It feels like a common Blizzard problem where they're either too afraid to show a character as even slightly flawed, or they're way too eager to jump off that edge and have them do horrendous poo poo while still insisting that you cheer them. They have a hard time finding that right balance.
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Jul 9, 2023 17:07
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Is everyone meant to be slightly suspicious? Are you meant to be distrustful of everyone in your team? Does anything come of it?
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Jul 9, 2023 22:47
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painedforever posted:Is everyone meant to be slightly suspicious? Are you meant to be distrustful of everyone in your team? Does anything come of it? Too early to say! We'll just have to wait and see what happens in the LP, won't we?
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Jul 9, 2023 22:49
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I voted for gas. Partially because Goliaths are fun, but mostly because I like to delay the Train mission until after I've got Ghosts/Spectres so you can use nukes to kill the trains.
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Jul 10, 2023 00:05
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Rhonne posted:It feels like a common Blizzard problem where they're either too afraid to show a character as even slightly flawed, or they're way too eager to jump off that edge and have them do horrendous poo poo while still insisting that you cheer them. They have a hard time finding that right balance. It's also Metzen in particular LOVES redemption arcs FARRR to much. Literally every single bad guy in WoW has had a redemption arc or 'good reason' to go bad.
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Jul 10, 2023 01:07
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JohnKilltrane posted:I voted for gas. Partially because Goliaths are fun, but mostly because I like to delay the Train mission until after I've got Ghosts/Spectres so you can use nukes to kill the trains. That is so much funnier than the normal person holding out for siege tanks that I am.
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Jul 10, 2023 01:31
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FoolyCharged posted:That is so much funnier than the normal person holding out for siege tanks that I am. The funny part is that That Mission is also much easier with ghosts/spectres, for a ridiculous reason I hope we'll get to see shown off.
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Jul 10, 2023 08:21
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Everyone's story also suffers from the branching mission structure, characters can only ever develop during missions when they're guaranteed to be around, so spend a lot of time standing around with no opinions during the rest.
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Jul 10, 2023 11:06
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Cradok posted:Everyone's story also suffers from the branching mission structure, characters can only ever develop during missions when they're guaranteed to be around, so spend a lot of time standing around with no opinions during the rest. Plus you can't have, like, actual urgency since every mission has to exist in limbo until you decide to go do it.
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Jul 10, 2023 11:12
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Unit Spotlight: Hellion
And just like that, the Firebat is almost 100% obsolete. No animation windups, no gas costs, compatible with Reactors so you can turbo them out as a mineral dump, and they hit significantly harder than a Firebat ever could. They're still not, like, incredible, since their DPS vs non-Light units is in the gutter (a single Marine has almost twice the DPS, and you can get two of them for the price of one Hellion) and there's a future unit for mech comps that are better as a mineral dump. But hey, at least Hellions get something. Armory Upgrades:  Twin-Linked Flamethrower
Hellions can now literally douse groups of enemy units in overlapping flames with this upgrade. The problem here is that this upgrade doubles down on dealing with huge swarms of enemies. When the major mission against huge swarms of enemies was uhh... Outbreak. Where you physically can't have Hellion upgrades.  Thermite Filaments
For a small investment, your Hellions can be the envy of every military organization in the sector. This one, I'm also not too hot on. In Wings multiplayer, you needed this upgrade to be able to two shot a Zergling, but the campaign Hellion can do that by default so all that extra damage gets wasted. I guess it lets them punch through Zealots and Hydralisks a bit faster? Field Manual Artwork  Technically not the Hellion we get, as they got a major overhaul in Heart of the Swarm that lets them transform into a better form of Firebats, but close enough.
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Jul 10, 2023 14:20
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My impression was that the hellion was supposed to be a worker massacre machine, not a zergling toaster. Area effect damage vs light, and worker lines tend to be conveniently lined up for a line attack.
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Jul 10, 2023 14:56
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This is why I really appreciate SC2's use of different difficulty levels. Normal difficulty is a nice, relatively gentle introduction for newer players, but it's also a fun playground for experienced players to say "You know what, screw it. I think Hellions are rad and I'm going to build a bunch every mission and I don't care what anyone says."FoolyCharged posted:That is so much funnier than the normal person holding out for siege tanks that I am. Numbus26 posted:The funny part is that That Mission is also much easier with ghosts/spectres, for a ridiculous reason I hope we'll get to see shown off. Me LPing StarCraft: Nukes are okay I guess but I'd really rather show off the power of Terran's combined arms. Me when someone else LPs StarCraft: NUKES NUKES NUKES NUKES NUKES
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Jul 10, 2023 15:24
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Cythereal posted:My impression was that the hellion was supposed to be a worker massacre machine, not a zergling toaster. Area effect damage vs light, and worker lines tend to be conveniently lined up for a line attack. Told you I have barely any knowledge of multiplayer. 
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Jul 10, 2023 15:31
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I'm almost sure that at some point Firebats were supposed to be unlocked at Outbreak and Hellions at Evacuation, not the other way around. It still doesn't answer the question "why Firebats even exist if everything they can do Hellions do better".
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Jul 10, 2023 15:32
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BisbyWorl posted:Told you I have barely any knowledge of multiplayer. Don't look at me, I'm just guessing based on their attack profile. My main exposure to multiplayer that isn't co-op is... custom co-op with me and friends stomping the AI. Zerg ground forces backed by battlecruisers for air cover and y-cannoning hard targets, and the Terrans' multiplayer healing unit are a thing of terrifying beauty.
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Jul 10, 2023 15:35
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In the early game after the obligatory 1-2 reapers, a mech player will use hellions to play footsies with zerglings and banelings and see if there's a runby available to maybe hit workers. In most maps they don't get dropped because mech terrans use Widow Mines for that. As the game goes on they remain a constant mineral sink for most Mech terran players, and by late game they generally want to have a few of them on hand, because a 3/3 Hellbat with blue flame can oneshot a 3/3 zergling in a generous, more-meleeish AOE allowing them to effectively kill an infinite number of zerglings by themselves if you have, like, 2. It makes dealing with zergling runbys effectively free.
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Jul 10, 2023 15:54
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Szarrukin posted:I'm almost sure that at some point Firebats were supposed to be unlocked at Outbreak and Hellions at Evacuation, not the other way around. It still doesn't answer the question "why Firebats even exist if everything they can do Hellions do better". I think the main answer is "nostalgia." They wanted to make every SC1 unit available (except the Valkyrie lol), even in cases where it's been effective made redundant, like the Firebat. The other answer is tanking. Firebats are crazy durable in SC2 (IIRC they're tied with Battlecruisers for best armour in the game). It still isn't a good enough reason to build them (especially because their tankiness hinges on a not-inexpensive armory upgrade) but in theory one could get some use out of mixing them as the vanguard of a bioball to soak up the damage.
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Jul 10, 2023 15:56
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Hey! Swanky! Faux leather seats! This is the good stuff.
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Jul 10, 2023 22:11
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Regarding Kerrigan's redesign for this game:
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Jul 11, 2023 14:19
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 We are going to raid the Tal'darim some more.
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Jul 12, 2023 14:49
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Unit Spotlight: Reaper
I don't even touch competitive multiplayer and I can tell what a Reaper's niche is at a glance. Zoom around to scout, use the Jet Pack to hop directly into an enemy base, use their guns to take out some workers and bombs to knock out production. Guess how many times any of those things are relevant in a campaign setting. You don't need to scout, since enemy bases are fixed, and they'll always have defenders that never leave on attack waves so trying to hop in for a hit and run will just get your Reapers killed. What you have left is a worse Marine that costs 50 gas a head that can't hit air, is dinged twice by enemy armor, dies to a stiff breeze, and can't even be easily splashed into an army since their high speed will make them happily charge ahead of the rest of the group and run head first into the enemy. The only time Reapers are good are in Outbreak, which is nothing but Light targets and buildings. Shame that we, you know, just finished it. Abilities  Jet Pack
 U-238 Rounds
A cute reference to SC1, sure, but this just makes them double down even harder on anti-Light. Meanwhile a single Roach takes 24 shots to kill.  G-4 Clusterbomb
Key word: 'delayed.' Even the little video that plays in the Armory Console itself shows a several second gap between throwing it and exploding, so by the time it goes off whatever you actually threw it at has either died or moved away. Field Manual Artwork 
BisbyWorl fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Jul 12, 2023 |
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Jul 12, 2023 14:52
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BisbyWorl posted:
And even then, the infested buildings are flagged as Light, so Hellions roast them anyway. It's a real shame because Reapers are objectively badass units, and they are a lot of fun to use. They're just focused on things you don't do in the campaign. But man. I only played Terran in multiplayer for a short stint in WoL, but pulling off a good harass with Reapers was so fun and satisfying. Even if I ended up still losing the game, I didn't care. The adrenaline from bounding up the cliffs and laying waste to a mineral line was enough for me.
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Jul 12, 2023 15:16
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Reapers being badass or useful? We have dismissed that claim.BisbyWorl posted:Guess how many times any of those things are relevant in a campaign setting. You don't need to scout, since enemy bases are fixed, and they'll always have defenders that never leave on attack waves so trying to hop in for a hit and run will just get your Reapers killed.
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Jul 12, 2023 15:43
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Poil posted:Reapers being badass or useful? We have dismissed that claim. As someone who has smashed the bases you aren't intended to on brutal, thise things absolutely actively produce units although I can't speak to resource cheating under the hood(probably, considering how fast the enemy base in the next mission can poo poo dudes out). Not every attack is a scripted spawn in even if they do exist, so raiding production could at least have some use on the rare maps the enemy doesn't rush to rebuild the buildings you remove.
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Jul 12, 2023 15:59
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Early previews for SC2 really wanted elevation to be a Thing in SC2. Blizzard was very proud of how they'd made units like Reapers that could move up and down cliffs without needing a ramp, with the intent that this sort of terrain and manipulation would add a new layer to the game. It's why medics were cut from beta when they were a part of the Terran roster. Terran players were completely ignoring reapers because medics couldn't keep up with them. Blizzard instead came up with a different solution to the problem that they wanted to encourage Terrans to use reapers.
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Jul 12, 2023 16:34
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FoolyCharged posted:As someone who has smashed the bases you aren't intended to on brutal, thise things absolutely actively produce units although I can't speak to resource cheating under the hood(probably, considering how fast the enemy base in the next mission can poo poo dudes out). Not every attack is a scripted spawn in even if they do exist, so raiding production could at least have some use on the rare maps the enemy doesn't rush to rebuild the buildings you remove. Yeah crippling the enemy's production definitely has a noticeable impact in the campaign and can really make your life easier. The Reaper's problem has more to do with map design and the fact that there generally isn't much in the way of cliff access to exploit, especially not compared to multiplayer maps.
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Jul 12, 2023 17:11
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There are cases where the ability to scale cliffs comes in very handy, but those are limited to the Zerg campaign.
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Jul 13, 2023 00:21
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I found Reapers to be slightly useful in the campaign for scouting and to grab caches since they're fast and mobile. It's true most of the enemy stuff is fixed, but that's not really relevant if you're playing casually since you won't know the maps ahead of time anyways. I never built more than a couple of course, but since you already have the building pre-reqs, building 2-3 usually felt like they at least served enough of a purpose that I didn't regret having them around. In future expansions, Reapers got some pretty interesting buffs. The "damage versus Light" was replaced with just straight damage so their overall DPS is something like 30% higher, while also removing the Tech Lab requirement and giving them out of combat regeneration. Still pretty limited usage though because they have uses early game but fall off fast in the mid-game once air units come into play - both because Reapers can't defend against them and also because Reapers' main niches (scouting, attacking workers from unexpected directions) can be better handled by fliers.
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Jul 13, 2023 00:30
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Reapers are as cool as they are niche and I probably used them more than strictly necessary. But I maintain they're pretty helpful on one of the endgame missions, even on Brutal. The Gates of Hell was the one I remember using them on, not a lot of fliers around and I really found myself struggling to get my forces moving quickly enough on that one, so sending reapers ahead to clear the way and prepare an expansion was extremely useful.
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Jul 13, 2023 00:48
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I haven't mathed it out, but don't the reapers have the best anti-structure DPS of the infantry units? If you're running a bioball I could see it being useful to build some as a secondary control group, your MMM squad runs in first to attract attention and kill the enemy units, then the reapers run in after to focus down defensive structures, pylons, or other high-value targets.
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Jul 13, 2023 01:46
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