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I kinda suspect you'll only be able to install farms on the 'fertile land' resource. But gently caress it, that's what the map editor is for.
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Jul 10, 2023 17:52
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Grand Fromage posted:Actual farms. Excellent. I wonder if you can just zone a shitload of them like in SC4 to have huge rural areas or the demand won't let you.  they answered my prayers
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Jul 10, 2023 17:56
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The dev diary also really sounds like wealth and density are no longer connected. It's talking about how low density housing has higher cost of living than apartment buildings. Need to know more about how rent works to say for sure here. Sucks that you start off a highway again. I wonder if non-highway roads can do outside connections so you could make a custom map with just a little country road to satisfy that requirement without looking stupid. E: Hope zone suitability makes sense. I don't like the idea of the city dictating where you can build things. If it's just a bonus to growth rate or something that would be fine. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Jul 10, 2023 |
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Jul 10, 2023 18:03
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If you have a map entirely full of farms it'll well outpace what the city can consume and use but it sounds like in that circumstance all the extra will just export to CimNation, which won't make you nearly as much per unit as consuming locally but will still get you some.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:03
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I shouldn't post before I finish reading. "All zoned buildings have Building Levels from 1 to 5. Building Levels represent the progression of the building from a lower to a higher quality building and are a reflection of how wealthy its inhabitants are. As the building increases in level, its upkeep increases which means that its rent also increases. In residential buildings electricity and water consumption also decreases per household and as the buildings change at levels 3 and 5, more apartments are available in medium and high density residential buildings." God drat it.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:15
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bizarre that they've gone through the trouble of simulating land value but you can't tax it
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Jul 10, 2023 18:17
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Assuming the uptick in apartment count at 3 and 5 isn't that much, that does sound like wealth and density aren't that linked. Individual basic buildings have five grades of how 'nice' they can be and will float up to the level of niceness that their occupants can support.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:18
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MikeJF posted:Assuming the uptick in apartment count at 3 and 5 isn't that much, that does sound like wealth and density aren't that linked. Individual basic buildings have five grades of how 'nice' they can be and will float up to the level of niceness that their occupants can support. I guess. If it's just a bonus thing and not like there are no level 1 skyscrapers then it should be okay. I honestly don't remember how bad it is in the base game, I have been running only workshop assets + plops + building level control mod for years at this point.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:20
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MikeJF posted:Each zone type has a Zone Suitability infoview which activates when you start zoning. Depending on the zone type, it shows pertinent information about which areas are suitable for the selected zone type. As an example, zoning commercial areas shows information about where the potential customers are located in the city while zoning a residential area highlights ground pollution so that it is easy to avoid when zoning. It also shows areas that might be otherwise unsuitable, perhaps due to high Land Value making rent for low density housing very high.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:26
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Have one-way roads always been, that only one side of it is zoneable? I haven't been playing for a while and upgraded my industrial area to one way roads and lost half my industry  Edit: My bad. There's a new toggle button to change road zoning from both sides, to one-side to no sides. Oops. Issaries fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Jul 10, 2023 |
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Jul 10, 2023 18:27
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I hope that they leave room for Asian and developing world styled cities as a future DLC. It's understandable that they have a Europe/USA focus, but what if I want to build a Lagos, a Mumbai, a Tokyo, a Shanghai? Enable the city of our dreams!!
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Jul 10, 2023 18:29
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CapnAndy posted:That makes it sound like high land value might be bad for low density housing, but isn't that backwards? I want to take the nice land and make it into suburbs. Land value is primarily a function of amenities and competition, not an intrinsic property of the soil. High density has high amenities and a lot of competition for the space. If you can just sprawl out further then there is no reason to compete. Suburbs are low value because they provide few amenities and are sprawling hellfields of identikit houses, they are built because land is cheap, so you buy lots of it and put the bare minimum on each parcel and then sell it to someone.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:30
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CapnAndy posted:That makes it sound like high land value might be bad for low density housing, but isn't that backwards? I want to take the nice land and make it into suburbs. Well, it depends on your goals. Because low density is more impacted by land value than high density, you'll need a lot of rich-rear end people.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:31
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I just keep thinking "how nice can it be if you still have to live in an apartment", but I guess that's my suburban upbring speaking.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:34
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Issaries posted:Have one-way roads always been, that only one side of it is zoneable? No. There's a zoning on/off toggle that was added recently, you might've pressed that.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:34
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Grand Fromage posted:No. There's a zoning on/off toggle that was added recently, you might've pressed that. Doh. But that is awesome.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:37
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Grand Fromage posted:E: Hope zone suitability makes sense. I don't like the idea of the city dictating where you can build things. If it's just a bonus to growth rate or something that would be fine. It doesn't sound like Zone Suitability is a mechanic or bonus or anything, it sounds like it's just an advisor window that lets you know pertinent info that might affect a zone of that type at that spot, like how easy it'll be to get to jobs from there and stuff or how much you've sprayed this area with pollution.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:39
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CapnAndy posted:I just keep thinking "how nice can it be if you still have to live in an apartment", but I guess that's my suburban upbring speaking. Think of value as being less "how nice is it" but "how much can we charge for it" and there are a lot of people who pay absurd amounts of money to live in shitholes because, for example, it's the only place they can get a job.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:40
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This is the actual explanation of what land value in the dev diary:quote:Citizens tend to value large homes, the proximity of shops, services they require, schools and workplaces as well as pollution-free locations. If the citizens find homes that suit their needs, they move in. And if they are happy living there and are wealthy enough, they are able to pay a higher rent which translates into an increase in the area’s Land Value. It is important to note that simply plopping all city services into a neighborhood doesn’t increase the Land Value in the area automatically. Only when the residents and companies have their needs met, be it with services or shopping options for citizens, customers, and resellers for companies, will Land Value be affected as the residents and companies feel that the area is valuable to their existence. It's just how high rent is in any given area.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:45
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I hope there's an ordinance to drive down rent by banning AirBnB.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:48
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Also a bit weird that nobody owns their homes.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:52
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Eh, you guys abstract some things. I don't think any large scale city builder's ever handled purchasing vs rental.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:56
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MikeJF posted:Eh, you guys abstract some things. I don't think any large scale city builder's ever handled purchasing vs rental. Victoria 3 has this, it always ends up with 
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Jul 10, 2023 18:57
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My god all you had to do was tie maximum density to to the zoning, and the actual built density to demand and land value, like real life. Having a special zone for "low rent high density" is such a bonkers thing. Simcity 4 handled this fine, 3 zone densities and then the wealth level of the building was mostly just based on the demand for housing for that wealth level. A lot of rich people needing housing and you have some high density zones land? They'll build a luxury condo. Have a ton of demand for low wealth housing? They'll build a huge dense housing block. Easy. I don't know why CS keeps wanting to over-complicate things while also producing worse gameplay, but that's CO for you.
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Jul 10, 2023 19:03
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Baronjutter posted:My god all you had to do was tie maximum density to to the zoning, and the actual built density to demand and land value, like real life. Having a special zone for "low rent high density" is such a bonkers thing. Simcity 4 handled this fine, 3 zone densities and then the wealth level of the building was mostly just based on the demand for housing for that wealth level. A lot of rich people needing housing and you have some high density zones land? They'll build a luxury condo. Have a ton of demand for low wealth housing? They'll build a huge dense housing block. Easy. I don't know why CS keeps wanting to over-complicate things while also producing worse gameplay, but that's CO for you. yea, specifically zoning for Robert Mosesesque poor people towers instead of it being a balance of density and property value seems problematic. CO is so weird in how it filates poor US urban planning decisions.
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Jul 10, 2023 20:10
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I read it more as they did what you're asking with separating value from density by having the 5 levels of a building, plus the variety of zoning options. So maybe a low income high-rise is level 1 but it upgrades to luxury condos at level 5, but maybe I'm giving too much credit. The city industry specialization thing seems cool as it could bring in some interesting gameplay elements if there's a global economy that impacts certain industries. So while, as they described, there are advantages to having one industry together, maybe that comes at a risk of being hurt if that industry's global demand goes down, so there's incentive to diversify. Otherwise the complex economy seems really cool but I have some doubts they can pull it off to be well balanced and engaging. But I suppose as long as the tolls are there game updates and mods can do the rest. Fuzzie Dunlop fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 10, 2023 22:29
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GlassEye-Boy posted:yea, specifically zoning for Robert Mosesesque poor people towers instead of it being a balance of density and property value seems problematic. CO is so weird in how it filates poor US urban planning decisions.
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Jul 10, 2023 23:11
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I feel like purposefully giving you the option to build lovely cities is sort of a necessary part of making a city game? Like if you could only build good cities that would be weird cos most cities aren't. Like you shouldn't be able to build roads for cars if we're not allowing bad decisions.
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Jul 10, 2023 23:20
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I don't even know why they're called low rent buildings. They're higher density than high density, but everything about rent prices/land value/upkeep applies to them like any other residential building,. It's not like they're even going to necessarily be affordable if they're in an area with super high land value since the cost of rent increases to match the income of residents.
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Jul 11, 2023 00:29
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turn off the TV posted:I don't even know why they're called low rent buildings. They're higher density than high density, but everything about rent prices/land value/upkeep applies to them like any other residential building,. It's not like they're even going to necessarily be affordable if they're in an area with super high land value since the cost of rent increases to match the income of residents.
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Jul 11, 2023 00:48
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CapnAndy posted:It seems like everyone living on a parcel pays 1/x of its value in rent, where x is the maximum amount of residents of that parcel. So because they're super high density, even on nice land, the rent will still be pretty low, because it's getting split so many ways. Seems like basically it's housing for students and young adults, not a "build slum here" zoning. The dev diary makes it sound like rent is determined by a combination of land value, upkeep costs, demand and households. Large buildings with multiple households presumably have significantly higher upkeep costs than single family homes. If the simulation is actually any decent then the right circumstances should make low rent housing still pretty expensive.
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Jul 11, 2023 01:13
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And those denser buildings will still upgrade in level and we'll still see a version of them that's all expensive and the building changes to look made with more expensive materials and nicer props and all. It's a rent control zone.
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Jul 11, 2023 01:28
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turn off the TV posted:I don't even know why they're called low rent buildings. They're higher density than high density, but everything about rent prices/land value/upkeep applies to them like any other residential building,. It's not like they're even going to necessarily be affordable if they're in an area with super high land value since the cost of rent increases to match the income of residents. The way I read it the different zone types have different configurations of living space, household capacity and inherent upkeep. Rent seems to be upkeep divided by max household capacity, modified by land value. The "low rent building" zone produces buildings with high household capacity and low upkeep, so the rent is low, but the living space is small, so its comfort is low and may even be hard capped in household size (2 or 3 people per household, perhaps?). Mixed use has the commercial part contribute to the upkeep, so rent is cheaper than an equivalent building. High density probably has high capacity and high upkeep for larger living space. I imagine upkeep costs scale slower than household capacity, so high density rent is still cheaper given equivalent land value. All in all even if the default balance is not quite there it seems to offer a lot of levers for mods to use so we can expect to see some interesting stuff. Kyte fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 05:39
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One of the really cool things in SimCity 4 was that buildings that were originally built for high-wealth could occasionally downgrade to lower wealth, so having the same building model but significantly more run-down looking, and holding a much larger number of tenants.
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Jul 11, 2023 07:21
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Yeah so it might be better to call them "High density, standard size apartment" and "High density, small size apartment" zones. I'd say call it 'ultra high density' but that might confuse people into thinking you need to use that zone to get the biggest buildings. nielsm posted:One of the really cool things in SimCity 4 was that buildings that were originally built for high-wealth could occasionally downgrade to lower wealth, so having the same building model but significantly more run-down looking, and holding a much larger number of tenants. From what they say here they do have that kind of modification: Visually, buildings change at every other level, representing the increase in the quality of the building. Lower-level buildings have an intended “cheaper” look while higher-level buildings adopt a more modern and detailed look. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 09:33
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All you goons posting about density as if the most important news isn't mixed-use zoning like that's been something people have wanted since at least SC3K to my own recollection and I am sure much earlier. The farms look kino as hell, too. If they pull this off, these fuckers might finally dethrone SimCity 4; CS1 came way closer than I expected and this looks like it's building on that in every conceivable way. Grand Fromage posted:They've mentioned in the past they want it to be more open for modding than the first game. I'm not sure how you'd make it easier to deal with honestly, the workshop is so simple. But 20 years of SimCity 4 mods might affect my view on that. Yeah it's kinda funny that they're going "Oh we want to make modding easier and more powerful" like the og doesn't have one of the biggest modding scenes in all creation. Great goal to have, but funny.
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Jul 11, 2023 11:12
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Ms Adequate posted:Yeah it's kinda funny that they're going "Oh we want to make modding easier and more powerful" like the og doesn't have one of the biggest modding scenes in all creation. Great goal to have, but funny. If they hook in a proper API then most mods won't break when they update.
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Jul 11, 2023 12:27
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MikeJF posted:If they hook in a proper API then most mods won't break when they update. Yeah this is the change I'm hoping for too. Mods that don't interact with features that were updated shouldn't just break as a matter of course
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Jul 11, 2023 13:14
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Game is looking good. Mixed use zoning is great. More realistically sized buildings is great. Wealth seems... kinda separated from density? It looks convoluted, I don't really understand it. It sounds like high density, low income buildings are possible? Some features like traffic accidents sound like they'll be a disaster at launch but maybe not.
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Jul 11, 2023 13:49
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It is a bit weird that as apartment buildings level up - which appears to be a proxy for building quality - they cram more people in.
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Jul 11, 2023 13:57
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