(Thread IKs:
fatherboxx)
|
Erdogan is probably seeing that his days of being able to lean on Daddy Russia to play off of NATO is waning. He is going to have to cozy back up as best he can again. I also assume that him narrowly winning re-election is probably going to have to cause him to reform some or risk being disposed.
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 20:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 23:36 |
|
|
spankmeister posted:Turkey joining the EU is a complete non-starter with him still in power so. We can re-start the process and tell again what reforms are now needed, though! (The list is going to be longer than the last time.) I suppose this is bad news for Koran vendors in Stockholm, there's no use for some people to keep burning them after this. But this has been a really weird journey with weird twists. Maybe one day we'll learn what went on behind closed doors but there doesn't seem to be any reason why Erdogan couldn't have given his pledge sooner so Sweden could have participated in the Vilna summit as a member state.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 21:04
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1678494833118179354 And there it is
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 22:12
|
|
|
 finally NATO has been shown its limits
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 22:21
|
|
|
Pretty sure I remember the F-16 deal was mentioned as a possible bargaining chip as soon as, or even before Sweden and Finland applied.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 22:22
|
|
|
Biden can't approve F-16 sales alone, it needs the congress' approval who have been opposed. WSJ has paywall and Twitter is poo poo so I'm not sure whatspankmeister posted:And there it is means? 
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 22:22
|
|
|
Seems like a reasonable compromise. Erdogan gets to look big and tough, but (still) doesn't get F-35s. I'm happy for Sweden, and hope that Swedish goons itt (are there any?) are happy too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 22:25
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:Biden can't approve F-16 sales alone, it needs the congress' approval who have been opposed. WSJ has paywall and Twitter is poo poo so I'm not sure what I believe that Biden is capable of obstructing the deal at his leisure, though, and the congress rarely opposes for-profit sales of military hardware, thanks to the jobs it brings.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 22:30
|
|
|
Tuna-Fish posted:I believe that Biden is capable of obstructing the deal at his leisure, though, and the congress rarely opposes for-profit sales of military hardware, thanks to the jobs it brings. But from what I have heard before, the obstruction was the congress who wouldn't want to arm the Turkish dictator to kill Kurdish freedom fighters. It's possible that this has changed, but I would like to hear a confirmation for it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 22:33
|
|
|
Ynglaur posted:Seems like a reasonable compromise. Erdogan gets to look big and tough, but (still) doesn't get F-35s. I'm happy for Sweden, and hope that Swedish goons itt (are there any?) are happy too. Nah, our PM promised Erdogan a ”special security cooperation”, which sounds like we’ll help him hunt Kurds and oppositional party members. An embarassing shitshow of smooching an autocratic rear end in a top hat until it’s shining. It also seems we promised to work inside EU to help Turkey’s application, which is funny. Like yes, I am sure everyone opposed to Turkey joining will change their tune now that Erdogan has mighty Sweden as their partner in crime. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jul 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 22:33
|
|
|
Pretty sure somebody called an F-16s for Swedish accession deal when this got started. If that's what's happening (and until it's actually ratified I'm not considering a done deal given Erdogan's history), it seems quite reasonable for everyone involved. Edit: lilljonas posted:Nah, our PM promised Erdogan a ”special security cooperation”, which sounds like we’ll help him hunt Kurds and oppositional party members. An embarassing shitshow of smooching an autocratic rear end in a top hat until it’s shining.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 22:33
|
|
|
EasilyConfused posted:Pretty sure somebody called an F-16s for Swedish accession deal when this got started. Sweden will also work on lifting the ban on selling weapons to Turkey, so yeah, even if he doesn’t end up with F-16’s, Erdogan can waste the rapidly crumbling Turkish economy on buying Swedish weapons for killing Kurds.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 22:40
|
|
|
lilljonas posted:It also seems we promised to work inside EU to help Turkey’s application, which is funny. Like yes, I am sure everyone opposed to Turkey joining will change their tune now that Erdogan has mighty Sweden as their partner in crime. I'm not from the EU but I have a hard time imagining this happening. Per wikipedia, sounds like Turkey would be the EU's most populous country and have the most parliament members. EDIT: Plus, don't all EU members have to approve? Pretty sure the Greeks would not be up for this.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 23:22
|
|
|
Small White Dragon posted:I'm not from the EU but I have a hard time imagining this happening. Per wikipedia, sounds like Turkey would be the EU's most populous country and have the most parliament members. If Turkey wants to get into the EU, step one would be getting rid of Erdogan’s and his party‘s stranglehold over Turkey’s political system.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 23:32
|
|
|
lilljonas posted:Nah, our PM promised Erdogan a ”special security cooperation”, which sounds like we’ll help him hunt Kurds and oppositional party members. An embarassing shitshow of smooching an autocratic rear end in a top hat until it’s shining. These all seem like conditions it would be very easy to half-rear end, or find convenient reasons to back out of, once NATO accession is done. Whereas it's not like Turkey can kick Sweden out of NATO once they're in.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 23:43
|
|
|
Small White Dragon posted:I'm not from the EU but I have a hard time imagining this happening. Per wikipedia, sounds like Turkey would be the EU's most populous country and have the most parliament members. The EU is a slow and lumbering mess by design, since the boogey-man of federalization was already unpopular in the 90's and guess what's the populist shtick about anti-EU sentiment in Europe today. Sweden sure can try to "help", but that's a pretty small gesture in the grand scheme of things. And as has been pointed out, Turkey as it is today won't meet EU's standards in many areas, so lobbying for them is carrying water into the sea.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2023 23:59
|
|
|
ranbo das posted:Give Ukraine the equivalent of anything that has been used against them. Give them F15/16/18s. Give them cluster munitions and ATACMS. Give them tanks and IFVs and rifles. For a russian, rather than ukrainian or polish, version, Jibek Jolu in Glenview does russian and central asian for quite cheap, including borscht, and it whips absolute rear end hit the borscht, hit the shashlik, hit the jarovnya, hit the zakuska, honestly you can't go wrong
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 01:03
|
|
|
The Russian food I wish was more common in the states is "chips fish". It's like fish jerky and it's good as hell. Fish must be feminine or UnAmerican or something I don't know. Does anyone have recommendations on podcasts/books for someone wanting to deep dive Kurdish history, culture, and current geopolitics?
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 01:28
|
|
|
Vaginaface posted:Fish must be feminine or UnAmerican or something I don't know. Worse - Catholic.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 01:57
|
|
|
Vaginaface posted:The Russian food I wish was more common in the states is "chips fish". It's like fish jerky and it's good as hell. Fish must be feminine or UnAmerican or something I don't know. I’d point to most of the US being terminally landlocked.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 02:18
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:I’d point to most of the US being terminally landlocked. Yeah there's large fish cultures on the coasts there's no need to try to make new stereotypes or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 02:28
|
|
|
russian and ukrainian both have good food but gonna take this chance to especially shoutout georgian food
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 02:30
|
|
|
Koos Group posted:This is not an entirely accurate characterization of opponents' arguments, as they didn't advocate murdering the same civilians Russians would, but rather other civilians. However, I don't think this is intentional on your part, and it doesn't affect the overall thrust of the argument, so I'm opting to just point this out. Unless you're saying I read too narrowly and people are calling for even more civilian blood than that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 02:31
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:russian and ukrainian both have good food but gonna take this chance to especially shoutout georgian food Good point, I would always choose Chick-fil-A over borscht.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 03:10
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:We're only murdering civilians because the other side would kill them anyway doesn't sound like something the good guys would say. VitalSigns posted:We're talking about dropping internationally banned cluster bombs on Ukrainian territory which will continue to maim and kill for decades, and those are the same people that are being killed in Russian attacks: Ukrainian civilians The fact that you are conflating collateral damage as "murder", implying the primary aim of supplying cluster munitions to Ukraine is not actually to assist them in evicting Russians from Ukrainian soil but is actually meant to kill civilians, strongly suggests trolling/bad faith. I guess it is possible the verbiage used in the first post was unintended. If so perhaps you can clarify. If you did actually mean to use the word "murdering" and posit that cluster munitions are unacceptable since they will kill Ukrainian civilians at some point, are there other weapons that you think should not be supplied due to the possibility of collateral damage? Since all military weapons will inevitably inflict collateral damage in the form of civilian deaths, are you suggesting that any and all military aid is actually immoral since we are "murdering" Ukrainian civilians? If this is not the case then I am interested in knowing where you would draw the line.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 03:10
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:russian and ukrainian both have good food but gonna take this chance to especially shoutout georgian food A good fried once invited me to her son's first birthday party. She's Caucasian Jewish, her husband was Mexican Catholic. There were more than 100 people there. They cleared out a two-car garage and had buffet tables along all three interior walls. The food was all a blur (we got into her FIL's good tequila later) but there was so much and it was all so good. Three trays of deviled eggs is all I retain, but I'm pretty sure they just rolled me down the hill home.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 03:20
|
|
|
Vaginaface posted:Fish must be feminine or UnAmerican or something I don't know. Have you ever been to a state that borders... a body of water? Like even large rivers because... what??
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 04:01
|
|
|
MikeC posted:The fact that you are conflating collateral damage as "murder", implying the primary aim of supplying cluster munitions to Ukraine is not actually to assist them in evicting Russians from Ukrainian soil but is actually meant to kill civilians, strongly suggests trolling/bad faith. I guess it is possible the verbiage used in the first post was unintended. If so perhaps you can clarify. As for your other question, certain weapons like poison gas, landmines, or cluster bombs are so heinous they've been banned by international treaty so comparing them to other weapons is a weak argument. Just because a bullet can kill doesn't mean we may as well drop phosgene on people or release hundreds of UXOs with every bomb that are going to keep crippling and killing innocent men, women, and children for decades. I draw the line at war crimes personally. We don't want to kill civilians we just want to end the war faster is what every side says. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jul 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 04:12
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:As for your other question, certain weapons like poison gas, landmines, or cluster bombs are so heinous they've been banned by international treaty so comparing them to other weapons is a weak argument. FWIW, the bigger reason poison gas was banned was that the main powers all had a lot of it, and all realized that it tended to favor the defender (or at least stalemate) by limiting mobility. Banning it eliminated a counter to their offensive weapons and so was in their mutual interest. As for cluster munitions and landmines, they were never actually banned since all of the major powers (among many others) continue to use one or both.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 04:33
|
|
|
Just because people ignore a ban doesn't mean the ban doesn't exist. Weird semantic argument. Most war criminals aren't prosecuted either because the victors control the courts, but that's hardly a moral justification for doing war crimes. And all laws of war were only signed because signing powers considered it to be in their self-interest. Again hardly a moral justification for committing war crimes, though it doesn't rule out that there are more acts which should be added but aren't because countries are acting in their self interest. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Jul 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 04:45
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Just because people ignore a ban doesn't mean the ban doesn't exist. Weird semantic argument. Who banned it and why?
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 04:46
|
|
|
Meanwhile in the real world, Russia hit a distribution point for aid with an airstrike, killing 7 civilians.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 04:50
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:Who banned it and why? You can read about it if you want, information is free. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions Or are you trying to make some kind of point about who drafted and signed the treaty, if so it would save time to just state your point.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 04:51
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:You can read about it if you want, information is free. Looks like a treaty that the US, Russia or Ukraine never signed. Interestingly enough it mentions the dud rates were the reason for the treaty as that can lead to civilian casualties and the US developed weapons that have a less than 1% dud rate which is significant.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 04:58
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:I don't see a moral difference between dropping cluster bombs to kill civilians on purpose versus dropping them and not caring that you're killing civilians. Call it whatever euphemism you want though. Why? Why would intent not matter in this circumstance?
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 04:59
|
|
|
Crosby B. Alfred posted:Why? Why would intent not matter in this circumstance? I mean you have to also go with the other assumption in the post which was "not caring that you're killing civilians" which is just asinine.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 05:01
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:You can read about it if you want, information is free. Is it not the case that in the event of a full-on NATO vs. whoever war, most of the European NATO signatories would either a) rely on US forces to use cluster munitions in tactically appropriate situations or b) just use US supplied cluster munitions? If that's the case, then this seems sort of like that "No weapons in space treaty" that most of the globe has signed, but all of the holdouts are the countries with viable space programs.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 05:02
|
|
|
DJ_Mindboggler posted:Is it not the case that in the event of a full-on NATO vs. whoever war, most of the European NATO signatories would either a) rely on US forces to use cluster munitions in tactically appropriate situations or b) just use US supplied cluster munitions? If that's the case, then this seems sort of like that "No weapons in space treaty" that most of the globe has signed, but all of the holdouts are the countries with viable space programs. There is an exception in the treaty that people who signed it will still let the US store the weapons in their country, UK pushed for this hard, so that is exactly what is happening.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 05:04
|
|
|
Crosby B. Alfred posted:Why? Why would intent not matter in this circumstance? If you somehow dropped a cluster bomb on accident then that intent is different in a morally significant way. socialsecurity posted:Looks like a treaty that the US, Russia or Ukraine never signed. socialsecurity posted:Interestingly enough it mentions the dud rates were the reason for the treaty as that can lead to civilian casualties and the US developed weapons that have a less than 1% dud rate which is significant. The treaty is stricter than that, I guess it's less of a war crime to use those depending on how accurate those 1% claims are.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 05:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 23:36 |
|
|
Looking at a map of the G20, it's almost an inverse of the cluster munitions ban (accounting for the fact that the European signatories + Canada will just use US supplied ones). So a supermajority of the world's population lives in countries where it is not, in fact, a crime to use cluster munitions (in general, I'm sure there's plenty of specific use cases that would constitute war crimes under different treaties). Edit: Probably closer to 75%+ of the global population, since Pakistan/SE Asia isn't in either. DJ_Mindboggler fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Jul 11, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2023 05:19
|
|