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forkboy84 posted:It was the first big JMMA New Years show I'd ever seen live and outcomes crucified Inoki and I was absolutely howling at the sheer nonsense of it all. If the UFC would embrace sheer fun like that I'd probably still watch MMA. Did you watch it with english commentary? I vividly remember the confusion in the booth when Tiger Jeet Singh and Ali Singh came out to pay respect to then-recently passed Umanosuke Ueda.
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Jul 11, 2023 10:08
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edogawa rando posted:Which then led to pondering other sliding doors moments in wrestling. The Montreal Screwjob is another obvious one, but what are some other events where a change in outcome could have had a seismic effect on this stupid industry? Stone Cold's career has quite a few moments like this, not just the aforementioned Montreal Screwjob leading to the creation of Mr McMahon but him also not originally being booked to win the King of the Rong where we cut the Austin 3:16 promo. Also wonder how long HBK would have tolerated Austin on top if he hadn't broken his back
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Jul 11, 2023 11:40
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In WWE you win cage match (usually) by escaping, in AEW there's no escape rule. What about the other promotions?
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Jul 11, 2023 12:32
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Purple Monkey posted:Stone Cold's career has quite a few moments like this, not just the aforementioned Montreal Screwjob leading to the creation of Mr McMahon but him also not originally being booked to win the King of the Rong where we cut the Austin 3:16 promo. Also wonder how long HBK would have tolerated Austin on top if he hadn't broken his back I might be misremembering, but I believe they gave Benoit a Ringmaster tryout before settling on Austin for the role. But obviously the biggest divergence we have from the prime timeline is that Kane didn't keep the cape.
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Jul 11, 2023 12:58
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What if fake diesel and fake kane got over?
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Jul 11, 2023 13:05
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i mean fake razor ramon but what if fake kane got really over
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Jul 11, 2023 13:05
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edogawa rando posted:Which then led to pondering other sliding doors moments in wrestling. The Montreal Screwjob is another obvious one, but what are some other events where a change in outcome could have had a seismic effect on this stupid industry? Sting being the third man instead of Hogan.
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Jul 11, 2023 13:22
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Seth Rollins had that moment where he almost impaled himself on a giant spike live on Raw and I wonder sometimes about him not being a half-sec faster
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Jul 11, 2023 14:03
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Claytor posted:I might be misremembering, but I believe they gave Benoit a Ringmaster tryout before settling on Austin for the role. Dibiase did apparently accompany Benoit to the ring for his tryout dark matches, but the Ringmaster debut was nearly six month later. He could have been earmarked for the gimmick, or they might have just wanted the crowd to know that they should boo Benoit since he'd be working heel in those matches, and having a heel manager come out with him is easy shorthand for same. Maybe he was going to be Xanta's evil Xelf?
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Jul 11, 2023 14:07
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edogawa rando posted:Speaking of Inoki, I was watching Kim Justice's video about the Inoki-Baba rivalry which destroyed the JWA and led to the formation of AJPW and NJPW last night, and I got to wondering about what might have happened had Inoki's attempt at taking over the JWA had been successful. Or if WWE fired both Matt Hardy AND Edge El Gallinero Gros fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 14:08
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Kennel posted:In WWE you win cage match (usually) by escaping, in AEW there's no escape rule. What about the other promotions? Escaping the cage to win is mainly a WWE-only thing, though I think Impact moved toward it as well a few years ago.
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Jul 11, 2023 14:16
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Escape only is a good rule but ONLY over the top none of this open door poo poo
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Jul 11, 2023 14:20
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History Comes Inside! posted:Escape only is a good rule but ONLY over the top none of this open door poo poo I've heard that Bruno's beat-the-opponent-into-a-pulp-and-casually-walk-out was a good cage match gimmick.
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Jul 11, 2023 14:28
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Kennel posted:I've heard that Bruno's beat-the-opponent-into-a-pulp-and-casually-walk-out was a good cage match gimmick. This is the only good use of “escape to win”. You shouldn’t be able to just run for the hills or barely eke your way out, you should have to beat your opponent into mush and walk out freely. The whole point is to lock people in a cage to settle things without interference or cowardice, why did it become such a norm to just race to escape as if that somehow blows off the feud? It sucks!
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Jul 11, 2023 15:56
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Kennel posted:I've heard that Bruno's beat-the-opponent-into-a-pulp-and-casually-walk-out was a good cage match gimmick. Outside of this the only good escape cage match was Bret/Owen because they made that stip work.
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Jul 11, 2023 16:11
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Ganso Bomb posted:The whole point is to lock people in a cage to settle things without interference or cowardice, why did it become such a norm to just race to escape as if that somehow blows off the feud? It sucks!
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Jul 11, 2023 16:16
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Purple Monkey posted:Stone Cold's career has quite a few moments like this, not just the aforementioned Montreal Screwjob leading to the creation of Mr McMahon but him also not originally being booked to win the King of the Rong where we cut the Austin 3:16 promo. Also wonder how long HBK would have tolerated Austin on top if he hadn't broken his back To be fair, it did take several months after Austin 3:16 for WWE to really realize that Stone Cold was the next big thing. He wouldn't have a super-iconic catchphrase to turn into one of the biggest shirts in the company, but you could add an extra month to how long it took him to get over and you wouldn't change the timeline in a meaningful way. Also, escape-style cage matches are fine if you treat them as a fancy gimmick that you plan a match around, and WWE doesn't really do that. The Bret/Owen cage match is divisive, but at least it's meaningfully different from a normal match throughout.
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Jul 11, 2023 16:21
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Once you accept that the cage is only there to throw people into and/or jump off of you will find peace
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Jul 11, 2023 16:23
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Ganso Bomb posted:This is the only good use of “escape to win”. You shouldn’t be able to just run for the hills or barely eke your way out, you should have to beat your opponent into mush and walk out freely. This is also why Magnum TA/Tully Blanchard cage match (which was also an I Quit match)* worked so well. Magnum beats that Wish.com Ric Flair to a pulp, takes his belt and just leaves. It is very final. *Promotions, please feel free to make your cage matches double as I Quit matches.
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Jul 11, 2023 16:23
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Dawgstar posted:*Promotions, please feel free to make your cage matches double as I Quit matches. one thing I like about this is that when you eventually make one not I quit so a face can whoop a heel's rear end, itd rule extra, I think
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Jul 11, 2023 16:31
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Ganso Bomb posted:This is the only good use of “escape to win”. You shouldn’t be able to just run for the hills or barely eke your way out, you should have to beat your opponent into mush and walk out freely. I thought the idea of the escape clause was more of a concession to a cowardly heel. Like to avoid the fight dude is gonna have to scale a lovely, ten foot tall chain link fence to get out of a fight while being hounded by the brave face who would never use the escape clause while his opponent was less than a bloody pulp. Alternatively Big Coffin Hunter posted:Once you accept that the cage is only there to throw people into and/or jump off of you will find peace
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Jul 11, 2023 17:16
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Lurks With Wolves posted:To be fair, it did take several months after Austin 3:16 for WWE to really realize that Stone Cold was the next big thing. He wouldn't have a super-iconic catchphrase to turn into one of the biggest shirts in the company, but you could add an extra month to how long it took him to get over and you wouldn't change the timeline in a meaningful way. It was the Bret feud that really elevated Austin. The WWE pushes the KOTR match because it’s a better origin story. Plus Bret was persona non grata for so long so it downplays his contributions to this.
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Jul 11, 2023 18:30
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edogawa rando posted:
What's the other option in the sliding doors with the Montreal Screwjob? Shawn gets screwed? As for a sliding doors moment, the biggest one is if Lou Albano doesn't sit next to Cyndi Lauper on a random flight in 1983.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:13
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Rusty Shackelford posted:What's the other option in the sliding doors with the Montreal Screwjob? Shawn gets screwed? Vince doesn't try to get out of Bret's contract.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:27
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Rusty Shackelford posted:What's the other option in the sliding doors with the Montreal Screwjob? Shawn gets screwed? I would say Vince and Bret compromising on the opponent/finish in a way that there's no bad blood. I know there's way more to it than just the moment of bad testimony, but I like the idea of Vince losing the steroid trial because he never hired Nailz back in 1992.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:28
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Kennel posted:I've heard that Bruno's beat-the-opponent-into-a-pulp-and-casually-walk-out was a good cage match gimmick. it also worked because there was no referee in the ring for Bruno's cages, just adding to the concept these two are going to beat the dogshit out of each other and the promoters can't find a referee willing to get anywhere near them, so put them in a cage and award the win to whoever's left standing
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Jul 11, 2023 19:29
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"Let them fight and give the win to whoever's left standing" sounds like what they were kinda-sorta trying to do with the various nWo factions in WCW.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:56
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MassRafTer posted:Vince doesn't try to get out of Bret's contract. If that happens Shawn and HHH probably pull a play to get released to go to WCW and HHH probably gets hired but Shawn may not as Eric said at the time he didn't want Shawn
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Jul 11, 2023 20:41
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edogawa rando posted:Which then led to pondering other sliding doors moments in wrestling. The Montreal Screwjob is another obvious one, but what are some other events where a change in outcome could have had a seismic effect on this stupid industry? If Hogan and Gagne didn't have a falling out and he stayed in AWA right as his career was taking off
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Jul 11, 2023 20:58
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SatoshiMiwa posted:If that happens Shawn and HHH probably pull a play to get released to go to WCW and HHH probably gets hired but Shawn may not as Eric said at the time he didn't want Shawn Eric says a lot of things, but there's no way he doesn't hire Shawn just as quickly as he hired Bret (and Shawn then probably ODs within a year or two given WCW's apathy to drug use). If Eric leaves either of them out to dry, it's Hunter; he'd already released him once, and in Oct/Nov '97, HHH was mostly losing to Mankind, Vader and Goldust. Most of the attention he got at that time was as the hanger-on to HBK. Benne posted:If Hogan and Gagne didn't have a falling out and he stayed in AWA right as his career was taking off Hogan and Gagne could be best friends who ate dinner together every night, and there's still no way Gagne could afford to keep him once Vince opened his wallet. And Hulk ain't the kind of guy who'd have been like "nah, I'll pass on the money to stay where I'm happy."
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Jul 11, 2023 21:11
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Rusty Shackelford posted:What's the other option in the sliding doors with the Montreal Screwjob? Shawn gets screwed? Either Shawn is the one ousted, or Survivor Series 97 gets a compromised finish with Bret dropping the belt on the following Raw to Austin or Foley or Shamrock or whomever. Bulldog doesn't leave in disgust and solidarity with Bret, no back injury that sets him down a path with no good ending. If Bret sticks around, Owen probably wouldn't have been pressured into doing that stunt.
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Jul 11, 2023 21:32
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the most interesting alternate 90s timeline is the one where Triple H is fired after the Curtain Call and Michaels is slowly buried to make way for new main eventers, and eventually he's either fired or he leaves at the first opportunity for WCW along with Waltman
Venomous fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 21:53
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"What if Dusty could stick to a budget" is something I've pondered more than once as a hinge point.
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Jul 11, 2023 23:09
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he would suck fewer eggs
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Jul 11, 2023 23:13
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What if Austin had Jumpin' Jeff Farmer's promo ability. Hayes: The fourth, prestigious King of the Ring, Stone Cold Steve Austin; an incredible victory! Austin: Yip! The other big one I've pondered is: What if Benoit had turned up at Vengeance to do his ECW title match against CM Punk after... you know. edogawa rando fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 23:36
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edogawa rando posted:The other big one I've pondered is: What if Benoit had turned up at Vengeance to do his ECW title match against CM Punk after... you know. Getting taken out of the ring in handcuffs while the crowd awkwardly stands around wondering if this is a work
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Jul 12, 2023 00:08
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Famous white guy, they would wait until he was done wrestling. Possibly even let him change first. Particularly as it is not like there is video footage of him doing it, it would be a pretty standard investigation at that point I imagine if he had not killed himself
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Jul 12, 2023 00:34
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edogawa rando posted:
Part of me thinks WWE would escape with minor damage but also part of me thinks having Benoit wrestle after the murder would magnify everything to the nth degree and with the media frenzy WWE wouldn't be able to hide or had the savvy at the time to ride it out. Could see the stock tanking, high executive's having to quit to maybe even TV being threatened
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Jul 12, 2023 00:53
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SatoshiMiwa posted:Part of me thinks WWE would escape with minor damage but also part of me thinks having Benoit wrestle after the murder would magnify everything to the nth degree and with the media frenzy WWE wouldn't be able to hide or had the savvy at the time to ride it out. Could see the stock tanking, high executive's having to quit to maybe even TV being threatened
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Jul 12, 2023 01:04
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Wasn't he supposed to go over too? Yeah, the obvious plan was for Benoit to win and for Punk to chase til at least Summerslam. Benoit winning the ECW title after murdering his family I think would abruptly end the WWECW experiment as WWE desperately distances itself from the title a murderer celebrated with on one of their PPVs. disaster pastor posted:If Eric leaves either of them out to dry, it's Hunter; he'd already released him once, and in Oct/Nov '97, HHH was mostly losing to Mankind, Vader and Goldust. Most of the attention he got at that time was as the hanger-on to HBK. Yeah, Hunter going to WCW at the end of 1997 is basically resigning himself to being stuck at I'd say maybe Jericho level? Kliq Influence wasn't the perfect protector, since Bischoff fired Waltman around that time. WCW was so slow to make new stars, I can't see Hunter getting anything more than a token US title run in that era. At least until Russo comes in.
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Jul 12, 2023 01:22
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