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The mixed use is nice yeah.
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Jul 11, 2023 13:57
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Ms Adequate posted:All you goons posting about density as if the most important news isn't mixed-use zoning like that's been something people have wanted since at least SC3K to my own recollection and I am sure much earlier. It's good but we all had our posting about it when the first screenshot of the zoning tab came out and we were 99% sure one of those was mixed use. Nice to know it for sure though. I wish it were less limited. I assume the fact that it exists means modders should be able to play with it so that will be fine eventually.
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Jul 11, 2023 16:59
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I wonder if it'll be possible to add C/I or C/O mixed use at some point. Like, small factories that also direct sell, or an office building with a coffee shop on the ground level, etc.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:09
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It seems really odd to me that C/O isn't it. My main guess is that if they did that it'd end up dominating in some games and they'd have to basically make both O and C/O versions of every single office skyscraper or the limited number of assets would make the city centre look too repetitive for people only doing C/O.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:32
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Having mixed use zoning here even in a limited amount isn't just "eh modders will add stuff" but CO did slowly add free feature upgrades over the 10 years CS1 has been a thing, too. I'm not hopeful that having C/I or C/O (or R/O?) will be provided in a free update, it'll likely be in the inevitable industries DLC. Having it at all is great. Having just R/C is so nice and I'm gonna be making a little downtown similar to the area I'm living in now when I get the game in the fall. I do think they fumbled the high density & rich and high density & cheap. I think it'll work out a patch or two into it, but having designated "affordable housing" and "let the market decide" housing will probably have some emergent behavior. Bunch of affordable housing near the very prestigious university to give students a place to live, otherwise all the housing nearby will be too expensive because its a nice area? Something like that. Better than CS1, at least.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:38
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I would just have office towers default to having commercial on the bottom couple floors. All office towers probably exist but mixed is the standard layout that I've seen.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:41
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I bet every office tower having commerical on the bottom would end up loving your traffic up way harder than keeping them separate. I suspect people will mostly go home between work and shopping.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:42
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I would suggest that high density commercial should default to offices on the upper floors.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:44
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It's a bit annoying the way they're doing it. Mixed zoning just being its own separate thing, which means it's own individual bespoke building models. Also it doesn't really over the granularity of medium/high density either. Are we getting a huge 50 story condo tower with a retail podium, or a little 3 story main street building with a single shop and a couple apartments above? Would have been cool to have dynamic "slots" at the bottom of many buildings that could either have retail spaces or not, depending on the zoning and demands.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:45
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Looks like mixed use is the same as 'Medium Density Apartment Buildings' but with shops on bottom, so all that roughly 5-15 floor apartment buildings. Lil 3 storey main street buildings would be the Row Houses density. It'd be nice to get a mixed use of that too. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 19:51
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Would posting on the official forums under the dev diary thread accomplish anything? It did change some things with Vicky 3’s DLC content. I know CO aren’t the same people who did V3, but I figure they’d be open to listening to more things than a AAA giant?
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Jul 11, 2023 19:51
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I/R for that dystopian company town Foxconn factory vibe. 
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Jul 11, 2023 19:52
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OwlFancier posted:I would suggest that high density commercial should default to offices on the upper floors. Yeah the idea of a skyscraper that is actually 100% commercial is just laughable. Nobody builds a 50-storey mall. SimCity considered office to be a type of commercial which is where this mix-up got started. But since CS has an actual office zone, "high density commercial" should be something like the big Macy's in NYC. Skyscrapers should be mostly office or residential
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Jul 11, 2023 19:52
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Yeah like, a vertical mall would be a feature building, not the default.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:55
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VostokProgram posted:Yeah the idea of a skyscraper that is actually 100% commercial is just laughable. Nobody builds a 50-storey mall. It actually looks like high density commercial maxes out pretty small, and is on most commonly only a half dozen floors or so. Like, here's the HD commerical buildings in a city highlighted, surrounded by office buildings. 
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 19:56
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I wonder what the tallest all commercial building is. I've definitely seen up to at least 20 stories. 10-ish is pretty common in East Asia.OwlFancier posted:Yeah like, a vertical mall would be a feature building, not the default. It would be neat if this changed by theme. Vertical malls are the norm in Asia, where I lived in China there were four or five within a 15 minute walk of my apartment. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 19:56
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Jul 11, 2023 19:58
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Grand Fromage posted:I wonder what the tallest all commercial building is. I've definitely seen up to at least 20 stories. 10-ish is pretty common in East Asia. according to Guiness it's The ONE shopping mall in Hong Kong, 24 floors.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:58
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I wonder if office workers go out for lunch.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:01
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My favorite form of commercial buildings are zakkyos in Japan. Basically imagine a narrow apartment building, but instead of apartments they're small businesses. Tower covered in glowing signs with 100 different bars in it.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:02
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Yeah it's weird that mix used is stuck firmly as a medium zone, while all the biggest highest density towers don't have retail in the bottom. I've usually found the biggest housing towers have commercial in the bottom as the norm. It would be killer if modders could add new zones. Have some row-house level mixed use and some high density tower ones too. I mean real life zoning is way too nuanced for the typical simcity/skylines zoning system anyways. Just a few blocks away from me is a brand new fire station that has a few floors of office on top of it and then a whole affordable housing complex on top of that. God, I'd love a modular building system sort of like simcity 2013's where you were just given a big library of chunks of buildings and could slap together whole complexes. Have your dream combo fire station / library with housing and office on top.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:02
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also worth notingquote:The major differences between low and high density businesses, apart from their physical size, are the types of companies as well as the volume of goods they are able to sell to consumers. The low density businesses are usually boutiques, gas stations, small stores, and bars while the high density businesses tend to be supermarkets, department stores, and various recreational locations such as theaters and hotels. Small businesses employ fewer workers and can serve smaller amounts of customers, while large businesses on the other hand are populated with many employees and thus can service a greater number of people. This also means they are able to sell more goods from their stock compared to smaller, low density businesses. the different kinds of commercial buildings also supply different kinds of products so it's not like CS1 where 25% of your city's buildings are restaurants or stores. cars actually need gas to function and people have to go out and buy gas from gas stations, bars produce entertainment instead of groceries, etc. i don't know why commercial can be so diverse while residential is so rigid. Baronjutter posted:Yeah it's weird that mix used is stuck firmly as a medium zone, while all the biggest highest density towers don't have retail in the bottom. I've usually found the biggest housing towers have commercial in the bottom as the norm. being able to add new zone types would be great but IIRC that and growable building footprints were super hard coded in CS1. i wouldn't hold my breath.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:11
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Hopefully they learned enough from their experience with CS1 and any issues they had making expansions to know where and how to design the code in CS2 in ways that would be less restrictive of likely future features, with nice places to plug things in.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:16
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I wonder if a better name for the 'High Density Low Rent Apartments' zone might be the 'High Density Studio Apartments' zone.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:19
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It just doesn't really make sense because that's almost never part of zoning. You just zone high density and developers build a mix of units based on demands. If there's a lot of demand for smaller low rent apartments, that's what they'll build. if the demand is for bigger fancy apartments, they build those. There aren't different zones for them.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:21
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Grand Fromage posted:My favorite form of commercial buildings are zakkyos in Japan. Basically imagine a narrow apartment building, but instead of apartments they're small businesses. Tower covered in glowing signs with 100 different bars in it. Mixed use apartments in East Asia in general where you can be a turbo nerd and just stay permanently inside while still meeting all of your restaurant and grocery and maybe even gym and clinic needs without ever stepping out of the front door are amazing and I wish they would catch on in the west. I was at a place last year that had an internal connection to the subway line. Wonder if with mods we might actually get that. Time for proper arcologies.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:23
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Baronjutter posted:It just doesn't really make sense because that's almost never part of zoning. You just zone high density and developers build a mix of units based on demands. If there's a lot of demand for smaller low rent apartments, that's what they'll build. if the demand is for bigger fancy apartments, they build those. There aren't different zones for them. this is what's so weird. the game can apparently figure out that there's demand for gas, so it build a gas station in a commercial lot, but they decided not to do that with residential buildings
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Jul 11, 2023 20:24
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Baronjutter posted:It just doesn't really make sense because that's almost never part of zoning. You just zone high density and developers build a mix of units based on demands. If there's a lot of demand for smaller low rent apartments, that's what they'll build. if the demand is for bigger fancy apartments, they build those. There aren't different zones for them. Yeah but it seems like the basic model here is that all apartments are the same base 'size' in a zone type, as part of the simplification/abstraction (likely excepting low density). It's an understandable way of designing the engine; if different high density buildings were different types of accommodation (building grades aside) it would be super complex to design how to decide what grows where. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 20:24
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Specifically mandated affordable housing/public housing is definitely a thing. Having it as a zone type makes sense given that it's trying to fit into the game systems. The only other way you could do it without making a bespoke feature is having it as a district setting. I do think the zone name is weird but it being a Finnish studio explains that for me. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 20:25
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Koramei posted:Mixed use apartments in East Asia in general where you can be a turbo nerd and just stay permanently inside while still meeting all of your restaurant and grocery and maybe even gym and clinic needs without ever stepping out of the front door are amazing and I wish they would catch on in the west. I was at a place last year that had an internal connection to the subway line. I never lived in one but stayed at a friend's place in the deep Seoul burbs that was like that. There was an open atrium in the middle too so it had a fun cyberpunk megabuilding vibe.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:28
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Yeah, I remember seeing people post some cool examples of those Asian buildings in the old arcology thread.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:30
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That part of cyberpunk is just straight reality at this point really. I was honestly mildly disappointed with Cyberpunk’s Night City, most of it isn’t far off places that already exist. Lack of pyramids though still. Did anyone ever play the future expansion for SC5? Despite the rest of the game I was mildly curious about it.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:35
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OwlFancier posted:I would suggest that high density commercial should default to offices on the upper floors. At least, I hope so, because if you've got to go into the teeth of downtown just to go to the movies, that's a bit silly.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:49
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CapnAndy posted:It kinda seems like high density commercial isn't necessarily "tall", but "big"? They said movie theaters as an example, and also I'd assume malls, big box stores, the like. Stuff you wouldn't really see in a downtown area. this is a intensely American suburban perspective, in Asia and much of Europe all of these things are found "downtown" or at least in heavily urban areas. They won't have the same physical layout as a suburban big box store or movie theater, but very much a thing in large cities. Could be interesting in the future if there is something like mixed us office or residential/entertainment which includes restaurants, bars, clubs, movie theaters, galleries etc so you can create bar or entertainment districts. GlassEye-Boy fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 21:00
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GlassEye-Boy posted:this is a intensely American suburban perspective, in Asia and much of Europe all of these things are found "downtown" or at least in heavily urban areas. They won't have the same physical layout as a suburban big box store or movie theater, but very much a thing in large cities. I have a suspicion that things like movie theaters and hotels might also exist outside of cities in both europe and asia
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Jul 11, 2023 21:05
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turn off the TV posted:I have a suspicion that things like movie theaters and hotels might also exist outside of cities in both europe and asia of course they do, but they also exist in downtown urban areas.
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Jul 11, 2023 21:05
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VostokProgram posted:Yeah the idea of a skyscraper that is actually 100% commercial is just laughable. Nobody builds a 50-storey mall. Somewhere in the UAE, a man napping in his money bath jerks awake
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Jul 11, 2023 21:13
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GlassEye-Boy posted:this is a intensely American suburban perspective, in Asia and much of Europe all of these things are found "downtown" or at least in heavily urban areas. They won't have the same physical layout as a suburban big box store or movie theater, but very much a thing in large cities. Yeah if I want to go to the cinema I have to go to town. There's maybe a couple of small picture houses around but a proper multiscreen cinema yeah you only get that in an urban center.
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Jul 11, 2023 21:18
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This is why I wish parking was way more of a focal issue. You get that massively different type of city development based entirely on your parking policy. When its assumed 99% of people will be driving to the theatre, you get these huge big-box like complexes out in the burbs where land is cheap for the huge parking swamps that surround them. When you know most people will be arriving via foot, bike, transit, you generally see big multi-screen theatre in the city core because they need to be in close proximity to as many customers as possible since they aren't relying on cars.
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Jul 11, 2023 21:37
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GlassEye-Boy posted:this is a intensely American suburban perspective, in Asia and much of Europe all of these things are found "downtown" or at least in heavily urban areas. They won't have the same physical layout as a suburban big box store or movie theater, but very much a thing in large cities. GlassEye-Boy posted:of course they do, but they also exist in downtown urban areas.
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Jul 11, 2023 22:47
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