War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

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(Thread IKs: fatherboxx)

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

Tuna-Fish posted:

The russians posted a video of an attack helicopter taking out at least some of them with ATGMs.

It's important to note that the gun isn't meaningfully better at penetrating armor than the 35mm gun it was derived from, because it's not proportionally scaled. It's just the same gun, with a wider tube and ammo necked up to full case width. On the plus side, the ammo takes no additional room over what the 35mm ammo would need, on the minus side, it doesn't fit any additional propellant so won't shoot darts any harder. (Maybe a little, because of more surface on the sabot, but that's probably marginal.)

The purpose is to fit more HE, more fragmentation, and fancy fuzes into the shell, not more armor penetration.

Oh, interesting! I had assumed it was more about more explosive versus heavier penetrators, but wasn't certain.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 14:04

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 09:11

Tuna-Fish: Sep 13, 2017

Ynglaur posted:

Oh, interesting! I had assumed it was more about more explosive versus heavier penetrators, but wasn't certain.

From this video:

Training ammo, but shape matches the real thing. 50mm sabot, 50mm HE, 35mm HE.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 14:36

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

Surprising no one

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1679839793029562368?t=fXT4PewgleiteZx9K5neGg&s=19

# ? Jul 14, 2023 14:37

LifeSunDeath: Jan 4, 2007; still gay rights and smoke weed every day

thankfully the enemy is very stupid
https://i.imgur.com/Q6ZzM9O.mp4

# ? Jul 14, 2023 14:44

Tigey: Apr 6, 2015

fatherboxx posted:

Kommersant (established Russian newspaper of record, not super loyalist, but clearly broken with years of censorship) managed to get some rambling words from Putin regarding the meeting with Wagner leadership
- On the one hand, at the meeting with them, I assessed what they had done on the battlefield and, on the other hand, what they had done during the events of June 24. Thirdly, I showed them possible options for their further service, including combat application. That was it.

And they were done in three hours.

- Can we assume, - I asked, - that PMC "Wagner" will be preserved as a fighting unit?

- Well, the PMC "Wagner" does not exist! - Vladimir Putin exclaimed. - We have no law on private military organizations! It simply does not exist!

That is, if there is no law, there is no PMC.

And what was all this then?

- There is no such legal entity, - explained Vladimir Putin.

Here he apparently spoke as a lawyer.

It was clear.

- There is a group, but legally it does not exist! - The president repeated: "This is a separate issue related to real legalization. But this is a question that should be discussed in the State Duma, in the government. It's not an easy question.

Later, Vladimir Putin shared with me a story from that meeting. At the meeting, he offered the Wagner commanders, who, the president confirmed, numbered 35 at the meeting ("Well, there you are in the Kremlin," he told them), several employment options, including one under the leadership of their direct commander with the call sign Greyhaired. That is, the man under whom the Wagner fighters had served for the past 16 months.

- All of them could have gathered in one place and continued to serve," Putin said, "and nothing would have changed for them.
They would have been led by the same person who was their real commander all this time.

- So what?- Many people nodded when I said that," Putin continued, "and Prigozhin, who was sitting in front and didn't see it, said after listening:- No, the guys do not agree with this decision.

The story with PMC "Wagner", no doubt, has plowed Vladimir Putin.

nice loving functioning state you have here indeed

*spends last 20 years dismantling the rule of law in Russia and allowing the military, security forces and other powerful groups to act with impunity*

*surprised pikachu face when paramilitary group refuses to obey the rule of law*

# ? Jul 14, 2023 14:45

Tuna-Fish: Sep 13, 2017

Tuna-Fish posted:

Training ammo, but shape matches the real thing. 50mm sabot, 50mm HE, 35mm HE.

Selfquote to add: I can't find the other presentation, but some high-up army guy explained the rationale somewhere, and beyond AA, they want ability to clear obstacles. By his telling, in Iraq they were perfectly happy with Bradley's ability to poke holes in things, but if someone piled up more than 10 bricks on a road, a Bradley had to either expend a tow, have someone dismount to clear it, or call up help from above because the 25mm HE was just anemic at moving earth. Therefore, 50mm with rounds that carry a very nice big HE charge.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 14:48

Dirt5o8: Nov 6, 2008; EUGENE? Where's my fuckin' money, Eugene?

Tuna-Fish posted:

Selfquote to add: I can't find the other presentation, but some high-up army guy explained the rationale somewhere, and beyond AA, they want ability to clear obstacles. By his telling, in Iraq they were perfectly happy with Bradley's ability to poke holes in things, but if someone piled up more than 10 bricks on a road, a Bradley had to either expend a tow, have someone dismount to clear it, or call up help from above because the 25mm HE was just anemic at moving earth. Therefore, 50mm with rounds that carry a very nice big HE charge.

If you could find it, I would be really interested in this guy's take on it. Moving dirt isn't really the Bradley's mission. I haven't worked with the engineer mod of it but it's pretty lightweight for that kind of work

# ? Jul 14, 2023 15:06

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

fatherboxx posted:

Surprising no one

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1679839793029562368?t=fXT4PewgleiteZx9K5neGg&s=19

Possibly a mistranslation. Reuters reports it differently.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/erdogan-says-he-is-agreement-with-putin-that-grain-deal-should-be-extended-2023-07-14/

I.e. Putin agrees it should be extended, but there are some conditions.

Peskov also said that Putin hadn't agreed to anything yet.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 15:26

LifeSunDeath: Jan 4, 2007; still gay rights and smoke weed every day

POV almost getting your drone missiled
https://v.redd.it/vij5yw8yxvbb1/DASH_720.mp4

# ? Jul 14, 2023 15:47

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

LifeSunDeath posted:

thankfully the enemy is very stupid
https://i.imgur.com/Q6ZzM9O.mp4

I love it how they were videoing it as if the sight of Russia's dumbest mofo springing to the mortar with a shell was going to be some sort of positive propaganda. They were so dumbstruck by this fratricidal idiot's display that the only reaction was to remove safety from the shell.

And where the hell is your helmet private :commissar:

# ? Jul 14, 2023 15:54

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

OddObserver posted:

Note that the thread also points out that a lot of training days were wasted, with lots of time spent sitting around doing nothing.

Good to know that hasn't changed, at least. That and bad housing contractors seem to remain constants.

Djarum posted:

I think also with the US military there is a VERY serious vetting process for every piece of equipment. They rarely use anything off the shelf because it can easily be compromised in various ways. I am quite surprised that they haven’t invested heavily in small drones that can be used on the platoon/squad level. As we have seen in this conflict they are basically invaluable in modern warfare.

Something like this can be made for military use that has modularity to allow it to do things like drop munitions like that Ukrainians have modified theirs to do. Maybe add stuff in like laser designation or even small arms fire capability. It is all pretty cheap off the shelf tech. Small, cheap and disposable.

I completely agree. The US invested heavily into those Black Hornets, which are great except they cost about $100,000 each. Gdls submission for the Xm30 talks about having one (1) Switchblade drone.

The US military needs several types of inexpensive, attritable drones. And they need hundreds of thousands of them. They keep treating every drone like a platform rather than like ammunition.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 16:12

Djarum: Apr 1, 2004; by vyelkin

Ynglaur posted:

I completely agree. The US invested heavily into those Black Hornets, which are great except they cost about $100,000 each. Gdls submission for the Xm30 talks about having one (1) Switchblade drone.

The US military needs several types of inexpensive, attritable drones. And they need hundreds of thousands of them. They keep treating every drone like a platform rather than like ammunition.

Well if you were an enterprising fellow designing and engineering a domestically made cheap modular drone would likely make you a ton of money. If anyone here does that I expect a cut of the profits.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 16:15

Tiny Timbs: Sep 6, 2008

Nenonen posted:

I love it how they were videoing it as if the sight of Russia's dumbest mofo springing to the mortar with a shell was going to be some sort of positive propaganda. They were so dumbstruck by this fratricidal idiot's display that the only reaction was to remove safety from the shell.

And where the hell is your helmet private

Doing it once is dumb, doing it twice in a row is cognitive impairment from lack of sleep or something else. That guy's either drunk or having a lovely time.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 16:19

Kraftwerk: Aug 13, 2011; i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Ynglaur posted:

Good to know that hasn't changed, at least. That and bad housing contractors seem to remain constants.

I completely agree. The US invested heavily into those Black Hornets, which are great except they cost about $100,000 each. Gdls submission for the Xm30 talks about having one (1) Switchblade drone.

The US military needs several types of inexpensive, attritable drones. And they need hundreds of thousands of them. They keep treating every drone like a platform rather than like ammunition.

Even if such cheap off the shelf solutions exist, isn�t the procurement of the military politically motivated and only contracts for expensive, complex, over engineered products the only one capable of winning?

# ? Jul 14, 2023 16:23

WarpedLichen: Aug 14, 2008

Kraftwerk posted:

Even if such cheap off the shelf solutions exist, isn�t the procurement of the military politically motivated and only contracts for expensive, complex, over engineered products the only one capable of winning?

Americans are trying and have tried to make drones, this page has a pretty good write up:
https://www.thedronegirl.com/2020/06/23/american-drone-companies/

But the issue is that DJI has a massive advantage in that market.

quote:

A Department of Interior Mission Functionality and Data Management Assurance Assessment from July 2019 seeking out �inexpensive and highly capable aircraft� found that any drones �available from U.S. based companies were up to 10x less capable for the same price, or up to 10x more costly than similarly capable DJI aircraft.�

# ? Jul 14, 2023 16:31

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

How do American drones compare in cost/effectiveness to the Iranian ones being used in the war?

# ? Jul 14, 2023 16:34

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

Tiny Timbs posted:

Doing it once is dumb, doing it twice in a row is cognitive impairment from lack of sleep or something else. That guy's either drunk or having a lovely time.

Most likely it is a joke video

# ? Jul 14, 2023 16:42

Groggy nard: Aug 6, 2013; How does into botes?

Kraftwerk posted:

Even if such cheap off the shelf solutions exist, isn�t the procurement of the military politically motivated and only contracts for expensive, complex, over engineered products the only one capable of winning?

The value of a dollar goes a lot further overseas for various economic reasons. This can cause hilarious disconnects in pricing because in the US the cost of training a fresh faced LT is the same as two Ukrainian Specops.

Groggy nard fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Jul 14, 2023

# ? Jul 14, 2023 16:43

Owling Howl: Jul 17, 2019

Ynglaur posted:

The US military needs several types of inexpensive, attritable drones. And they need hundreds of thousands of them. They keep treating every drone like a platform rather than like ammunition.

Australia has been sending cardboard drones to Ukraine.

I feel like the ability to saturate enemy airspace with cheap drones would be extremely useful. Put some radar reflectors on them and just have them fly in circles over enemy territory and then return to land in a field somewhere for collection. Now they can either shoot down $2-3000 drones with $100.000 AA missiles or ignore them and risk having surveillance or armed drones mixed in with the swarm.

Someone figure out how to marry a small engine from something like a chainsaw or leafblower to a cardboard fuselage and an arduino unit.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 16:53

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

Kraftwerk posted:

Even if such cheap off the shelf solutions exist, isn�t the procurement of the military politically motivated and only contracts for expensive, complex, over engineered products the only one capable of winning?

Historically, yes. That seems to be changing, at least for some things. I've certainly seen changes in terms of how state-level governments procure in the US.

Cpt_Obvious posted:

How do American drones compare in cost/effectiveness to the Iranian ones being used in the war?

Iran's are less "drone" and more "cruise missile". I think a US Tomahawk goes for about a million dollars. The Shaheds are around $100,000. The Tomahawks are far more capable. It remains to be seen if floods of $100,000 cruise missiles are worthwhile. I'm not sure we'll know until we see how inexpensive we can make air defense. It's like a reverse-arms race right now in terms of cost effectiveness.

Groggy nard posted:

The value of a dollar goes a lot further overseas for various economic reasons. This can cause hilarious disconnects in pricing because in the US the cost of training a fresh faced LT is the same as two Ukrainian Specops.

This is something that is very under-appreciated. Everyone goes, "Wow, the US spends more on its military than every other country! They're so war-like!" I mean, yes, we are sometimes, but military spend relative to GDP is probably a fairer measure of efficiency given the relative strength of the dollar compared to most currencies.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 17:01

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

Ynglaur posted:

Historically, yes. That seems to be changing, at least for some things. I've certainly seen changes in terms of how state-level governments procure in the US.

Iran's are less "drone" and more "cruise missile". I think a US Tomahawk goes for about a million dollars. The Shaheds are around $100,000. The Tomahawks are far more capable. It remains to be seen if floods of $100,000 cruise missiles are worthwhile. I'm not sure we'll know until we see how inexpensive we can make air defense. It's like a reverse-arms race right now in terms of cost effectiveness.

This is something that is very under-appreciated. Everyone goes, "Wow, the US spends more on its military than every other country! They're so war-like!" I mean, yes, we are sometimes, but military spend relative to GDP is probably a fairer measure of efficiency given the relative strength of the dollar compared to most currencies.

Shaheds are something like $10,000-$50,000 each.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 18:23

WarpedLichen: Aug 14, 2008

Charliegrs posted:

Shaheds are something like $10,000-$50,000 each.

I think the overall point is fair that the Shahed is a loitering munition and not a traditional drone and is lacking a direct counterpart in the US arsenal.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 18:31

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

Charliegrs posted:

Shaheds are something like $10,000-$50,000 each.

More to the point.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 18:32

ummel: Jun 17, 2002; <3 Lowtax; Fun Shoe

Owling Howl posted:

Australia has been sending cardboard drones to Ukraine.

I feel like the ability to saturate enemy airspace with cheap drones would be extremely useful. Put some radar reflectors on them and just have them fly in circles over enemy territory and then return to land in a field somewhere for collection. Now they can either shoot down $2-3000 drones with $100.000 AA missiles or ignore them and risk having surveillance or armed drones mixed in with the swarm.

Someone figure out how to marry a small engine from something like a chainsaw or leafblower to a cardboard fuselage and an arduino unit.

Just a bunch of of those light up drones they use at concerts and such drawing a big penis in the sky

# ? Jul 14, 2023 18:33

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

ummel posted:

Just a bunch of of those light up drones they use at concerts and such drawing a big penis in the sky

That would have the benefit of pissing off Iran's hardliners...

# ? Jul 14, 2023 18:45

Djarum: Apr 1, 2004; by vyelkin

Charliegrs posted:

Shaheds are something like $10,000-$50,000 each.

They are effectively RC planes with a DSLR and packed with plastic explosive. There isn�t much to them.

I think you are going to see a LOT of effectively Land Phalanx Weapon Systems on a vehicle frame being developed to handle drones and missiles being fielded in the coming years. You�ll probably see a couple in each armor group.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 19:05

Safety Dance: Sep 10, 2007; Five degrees to starboard!

I'm curious to see if anyone builds short range anti-radiation missiles to attack small drone operators directly.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 19:14

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

I wonder how well Iron Dome would do against a Shahed drone and if it would be cost effective.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 19:17

Staluigi: Jun 22, 2021

Tiny Timbs posted:

Doing it once is dumb, doing it twice in a row is cognitive impairment from lack of sleep or something else. That guy's either drunk or having a lovely time.

If you ever seen a brain running on fumes and stress hormones yeah it goes like that

# ? Jul 14, 2023 19:23

Orthanc6: Nov 4, 2009

Safety Dance posted:

I'm curious to see if anyone builds short range anti-radiation missiles to attack small drone operators directly.

That depends on what the strength/frequency differences are between the signal from an anti-air-radar, and a drone controller. I could imagine the drone operating signal being a lot weaker and thus harder to find and lock on to. It might be tricky to fit a detector sensitive enough inside a missile.

I'm guessing people have already mounted such detectors on aircraft and other drones. It's definitely better bang for buck to take out the operator than take out the more replaceable drone. Though most of the point of drone operation is being as far away as possible from threats, so range could be a bigger issue than detection. Still, could be useful to counter frontline troops tossing up small drones to check out the trench just ahead of them.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 19:28

Chalks: Sep 30, 2009

Some speculation about the state of the Russian defenders given a recent flurry of reports about ammunition and troop shortages

https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1679893186620141582

Threadreader for the above: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1679893186620141582.html

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1679783976595013632

quote:

quote:
Dismissed from his post of RU 58th CAArmy m-j Igor Popov indirectly admitted that new UA tactics of undermining deadly RU combination of mines, tube&rocket artillery, EW, air defense is working. That�s why Popov is so desperate for more counter-battery fight capability.
If the Ukrainians arent recapturing large parcels of territory now, its because that is not there main aim. They are trying to weaken Russian forces first, to give a subsequent forward movement the best chance for success. From this evidence, their plan is having a real effect.

https://twitter.com/ArmedMaidan/status/1679861202606759936

quote:

Ukraine "close to a bigger kind of success": Estonian military intelligence boss, Col. Margo Grosberg

Ukrainian strikes have demolished Russian command and logistics, while Russia nears the end of its reserves and its frontline troops are running out of steam because of the lack of rotation

"The reserves of the Russian Federation are running out, as units cannot be rotated from the front"

At Bakhmut, Ukrainian liberation of key terrain around the city has put Russian supply lines there under Ukrainian fire control

"The fact that the Russian airborne troops who have been stationed in Bakhmut since the spring are still tied up in the city and suffering losses, and it is not possible to send them to other places or to the reserve, also has a big impact," the report quotes Grosberg saying

Maybe the speed of the counter offensive may change soon, if this really is the state of things.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 19:34

Tiny Timbs: Sep 6, 2008

fatherboxx posted:

Most likely it is a joke video

I guess I shouldn't rule it out for grunt behavior but when I worked around explosives I always drew the line at using them for prop gags

# ? Jul 14, 2023 19:35

tractor fanatic: Sep 9, 2005; Pillbug

Safety Dance posted:

I'm curious to see if anyone builds short range anti-radiation missiles to attack small drone operators directly.

Aren't they already just aiming artillery at operator positions anyway? Drone controls are pretty loud

# ? Jul 14, 2023 19:36

Moon Slayer: Jun 19, 2007

Chalks posted:

https://twitter.com/ArmedMaidan/status/1679861202606759936

Maybe the speed of the counter offensive may change soon, if this really is the state of things.

Hold on, is he wearing a "Russian warship, go gently caress yourself" gang tag?

What's your account name, Colonel Grosberg?

# ? Jul 14, 2023 19:38

mutata: Mar 1, 2003

It's not a surprise to see memes on UA uniforms. There's been a large pro-Ukraine meme effort since the war began. Saint Javelin and all that.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 19:40

beer_war: Mar 10, 2005

Moon Slayer posted:

Hold on, is he wearing a "Russian warship, go gently caress yourself" gang tag?

What's your account name, Colonel Grosberg?

Nah, it says Slava Ukraini.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 19:54

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Moon Slayer posted:

Hold on, is he wearing a "Russian warship, go gently caress yourself" gang tag?

What's your account name, Colonel Grosberg?

drat that's a classic goon brain reaction to a flag with some text!

# ? Jul 14, 2023 20:17

WarpedLichen: Aug 14, 2008

tractor fanatic posted:

Aren't they already just aiming artillery at operator positions anyway? Drone controls are pretty loud

If it really becomes an issue you can just connect to a detached antenna with a cable though, anti radiation will only find the transmitter and the operator can be a good distance away.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 20:21

Morrow: Oct 31, 2010

mutata posted:

It's not a surprise to see memes on UA uniforms. There's been a large pro-Ukraine meme effort since the war began. Saint Javelin and all that.

He's an Estonian intelligence officer wearing a UA patch.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 20:42

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 09:11

mutata: Mar 1, 2003

Morrow posted:

He's an Estonian intelligence officer wearing a UA patch.

Ok. Same post but insert "Estonian" wherever you'd prefer.

# ? Jul 14, 2023 20:45

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