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I think it should still be a toggle option for people who don't like it, though. I rarely play any of these games on Hard or higher because I don't find it fun, so I think it'd be cool if you could just have an option for the bloodstain mechanic in accessibility. Instead of being all-or-nothing, you could have a couple toggles like "shade on death y/n" "geo tied to shade y/n" "mana tied to shade y/n" and mix-and-match.
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Jul 16, 2023 18:47
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If you bank geo (or exp, or whatever it is you lose) before going on a risky run that helps. Or you can save scum.
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Jul 16, 2023 20:46
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bawk posted:I think it should still be a toggle option for people who don't like it, though. I rarely play any of these games on Hard or higher because I don't find it fun, so I think it'd be cool if you could just have an option for the bloodstain mechanic in accessibility. Instead of being all-or-nothing, you could have a couple toggles like "shade on death y/n" "geo tied to shade y/n" "mana tied to shade y/n" and mix-and-match. This is against the universal law of game design where harder is better and accessibility undermines reward structures 
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Jul 16, 2023 20:55
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King of Solomon posted:Hollow Knight was good, but I hated the map system, and the double jump specifically felt bad. Maps that do not fill out as you explore them AND require you to find a thing to unlock areas you’ve already been to are dumb as hell. Either have me fill it out on graph paper myself or do it for me. The in between objectively demonstrates a flaw in game design. It’s one of the stupid things Aeterna Noctis also does. At least AN just has some stupid swirly see-through fog and the controls are nice/ precise so it’s fine I guess just really stupid.
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Jul 16, 2023 21:13
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I don't think bloodstain mechanics have added anything to a game I've played except for the series they came from. at best I just don't notice them because I'm not dying, at worst they're obnoxious. don't think much would be lost if every game stopped copying them. Ender lilies preserves the world state when you die so all the rooms you explored and items you found are still complete, but doesn't have any bloodstain mechanic either. made the game feel pretty chill.
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Jul 16, 2023 21:26
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I love a good in-between map and the way it makes you mentally engage with the space of the game. The handdrawn maps of Thief, the multiple different maps of King's Field 2/4 (4 having a full 3D automap as nearly the last item in the game is such a flex). I played HK without the compass pin and enjoyed it a lot. The AN swirly fog is pretty stupid though, both because it doesn't really hide anything, just make it more annoying, and because its maps aren't built for exploration anyway, being largely a series of linear platforming challenges.
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Jul 16, 2023 21:39
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Maps that do not fill out as you explore them AND require you to find a thing to unlock areas you’ve already been to are dumb as hell. Either have me fill it out on graph paper myself or do it for me. The in between objectively demonstrates a flaw in game design. It’s one of the stupid things Aeterna Noctis also does. At least AN just has some stupid swirly see-through fog and the controls are nice/ precise so it’s fine I guess just really stupid. Yeah, basically. If I'm playing a metroidvania, I want the map to update automatically. It would also be nice for the map to tell you if a given map square has something to find there, and whether or not you found that thing, like actual Metroid does.
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Jul 16, 2023 21:39
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I liked the bloodstain in shovel knight. it doesn’t matter at all there but you get to recover big flying moneybag sprites which feels good. in hollow knight it actually sucks a lot to lose a bunch of cash in some situations so the mechanic works less well there.
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Jul 16, 2023 21:40
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Tortolia posted:Most games with a bloodstain/corpse mechanic in recent years have something like this, an option to spend a fairly common consumable or currency to get it back if the potential loss is too great. It’s fine imo. My favorite "death punishment" mechanic is in The Messenger (which gets called a metroidvania on occasion but it is not quite, really). You don't lose anything on death, you just cant collect more money for a little bit after revival.
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Jul 16, 2023 21:59
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sudonim posted:Is a game mechanic good if the developers put in a way to pay your way around it? I like The Messenger too for that. It’s good to give the player options if you’re going to implement a corpse run mechanic at all. The genre can definitely be a little less slavishly beholden to Souls concepts, but the idea of adding a risk/reward type mechanic to death is not inherently bad.
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Jul 16, 2023 23:11
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Being sent back to the last save room is the risk. The reward is progressing instead of being sent back to the save room.
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Jul 16, 2023 23:28
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The games I don't die in have good bloodstain mechanics.
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Jul 17, 2023 04:21
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In addition to the other gameplay negatives that've already been said about Hollow Knight, I also hated the lack of boss heathbars considering how long you need to chip away at some of them even with all the up-to-date weapon upgrades. I don't consider the bloodstain mechanic that huge of an issue since you can just hang onto to the sellable items instead to bypass that and there's a way to respawn the ghost in a fixed location in town if necessary as stated previously, but it doesn't really matter when it feels like I don't really connect with the game on any level: the artwork may be gorgerous and the basic gameplay meticulously crafted for a specific gameplay style and experience, but between my complete lack of sense of direction, the purposefully annoying map mechanics and difficulty in healing yourself, save points that were way too far from the boss fight and a checkpoint teleport that took way too long to activate and finally, all the Super Meat Boy bullshit I didn't sign up for and no indication you could swordpogo off the saws, I honestly can't say I was having any fun at any point when playing the game. That plus I don't think I liked any of the characters either and the 2 you can kill off via inaction, I naturally managed to keep alive half by accident and regretted it both times.
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Jul 17, 2023 08:49
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Love it when people say the mechanics I enjoyed were objectively bad. It's almost as if it's not objective at all! I really enjoyed the map loop of Hollow Knight. I tend to be the type of player who overuses the map when it's there, so to have that limited trickle where you don't get to see it until after you've been through it once made for a really nice experience. I preferred the lack of direction as well. Most Metroidvanias aren't open-ended enough for me. Bloodstains are also such a commonplace mechanic, I'm surprised people complain about them so much. Death is more terrifying when there are stakes involved, even if Geo is plentiful. Like sure, it's not perfect, could have some QoL improvements, whatever. Objectively bad though? Yawn. Sorry a game you didn't like got popular, but coming at it with the stance that you're trying to "prove" it's bad is instantly gonna kill all your legitimacy. Just criticize it like a normal person.
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Jul 17, 2023 14:36
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I agree with Penguin Patrol. I enjoyed those objectively bad design choices. They increased my immersion in the world. If the world hadn't been so well constructed and if every screen was a nondescript corridor that looked just like the rest, then the map thing would have been irritating.
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Jul 17, 2023 14:47
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GRIME has a neat “not getting this for free” map mechanic where you have to find crystal pillars in each region to enable the permanent map logging, but: A) the pillar makes an audible hum that gets louder as you approach it, B) similarly when close enough you can see little visual streamers pointing you in the direction, and C) whether or not you’ve found the crystal on that section yet, the map tracks all your recent movements via a little line of dots, so you can see what route(s) you’ve been taking so there’s less risk of getting lost trying to figure out the path you took if you get killed or turned around. GRIME in general is full of those “not handed to you, but not overly arduous to handle” design decisions, which is part of why it’s really good.
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Jul 17, 2023 15:00
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The only objectively bad design is mandatory knock back on hit which you can't recover from in any way coupled with instant death pits.
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Jul 17, 2023 15:11
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AnotherGamer posted:Hollow Knight, I also hated the lack of boss heathbars considering how long you need to chip away at some of them even with all the up-to-date weapon upgrades. Aren't the stun states tied to health? I found them a pretty good indication of where you are in the fight and whether you're further than last time.
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Jul 17, 2023 15:18
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AnotherGamer posted:In addition to the other gameplay negatives that've already been said about Hollow Knight, I also hated the lack of boss heathbars considering how long you need to chip away at some of them even with all the up-to-date weapon upgrades. This was a big thing that made me drop aeterna noctis. I hit a wall on three different bosses in the second half of the game, two of which were especially miserable to fight, but I had no sense of how close I was to actually winning. am I getting through 90% and just need to push a little further, or am I barely hitting 50%? Felt bad because I thought the rest of the game was really good
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Jul 17, 2023 15:18
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I’m pretty much down for anything with regards to map and death penalties or whatever but good lord do I hate no health bars.
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Jul 17, 2023 15:49
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Fuzz posted:The only objectively bad design is mandatory knock back on hit which you can't recover from in any way coupled with instant death pits. What if you got an upgrade to make pits not instant death
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Jul 17, 2023 16:17
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I guess my reason for disliking Hollow Knight even beyond just the poor gameplay mechanics is, since it did do a lot to revive the metroidvania genre, it’s terrible design choices infected a lot of games. Sometimes this games learned from the mistake and improved on them, others not so much. Also, to clear something up, I did not say Hollow Knight is objectively bad, but that it has mechanics that are objective design flaws. That is ok! I love a lot of games that have objective design flaws (Deadly Premonition’s battle mechanics come to mind). It’s ok to acknowledge that no game is perfect. Otherwise everyone talks past each other with increasingly hyperbolic dialogue. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Jul 17, 2023 |
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Jul 17, 2023 16:19
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I still think Hollow Knight's map compass charm is dumb. The best you can say about it is that it gives you an "extra" charm slot for boss builds, since you don't need the map compass when you're running the same path to the boss room over and over. Otherwise having charms that implement basic QoL features complete with ones that enhance character builds is just silly. That poo poo should belong in an options menu, or an accessibility one even!
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Jul 17, 2023 16:32
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Owl Inspector posted:This was a big thing that made me drop aeterna noctis. I hit a wall on three different bosses in the second half of the game, two of which were especially miserable to fight, but I had no sense of how close I was to actually winning. am I getting through 90% and just need to push a little further, or am I barely hitting 50%? Felt bad because I thought the rest of the game was really good
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Jul 17, 2023 16:54
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Fuzz posted:The only objectively bad design is mandatory knock back on hit which you can't recover from in any way coupled with instant death pits. Souldier's Fire Temple is full of floating/roaming fireball enemies that are invulnerable 90% of the time and if you get stuck between two of them, they will juggle you until your health bar finally empties or you manage to get a dash in that doesn't take you directly into another one of the fireballs. Getting wombo combo'd by a couple of those things after just beating their stupid-rear end instakill "escape sequence" through a rising lava level really made me question if I wanted to beat the game. Then I reached the poison swamp level. So anyway today I'm starting Dave the Diver
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Jul 17, 2023 16:58
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bawk posted:Souldier's Fire Temple is full of floating/roaming fireball enemies that are invulnerable 90% of the time and if you get stuck between two of them, they will juggle you until your health bar finally empties or you manage to get a dash in that doesn't take you directly into another one of the fireballs. Getting wombo combo'd by a couple of those things after just beating their stupid-rear end instakill "escape sequence" through a rising lava level really made me question if I wanted to beat the game. Then I reached the poison swamp level. I actually liked the poison swamp, wasn’t a fan of a lot of the game’s soundtrack but I liked the vibes of that one What class did you pick? I played wizard and it really felt like the correct choice, I can’t imagine how infuriating the game must be as scout. when I finished the game and looked up a video of the boss fights as scout, I understood every negative review the game got from people who picked that class (and it’s even the first one in the list)
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Jul 17, 2023 17:05
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:it has mechanics that are objective design flaws This is the part I have issue with, I haven't seen any objective design flaws listed. You've listed some elements you didn't like that I really enjoyed engaging with. Feel free to have opinions about the design choices, but have enough self-awareness to realize they're just your personal preferences. virtualboyCOLOR posted:Otherwise everyone talks past each other with increasingly hyperbolic dialogue.
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Jul 17, 2023 17:16
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Owl Inspector posted:I actually liked the poison swamp, wasn’t a fan of a lot of the game’s soundtrack but I liked the vibes of that one Sup fellow wizard  Wizard is super fun because I spend most of the game dashing past enemies and exploding them afterward, and wearing any and all stuff to help facilitate that. I haven't looked up what the other classes played like in case there was replay value. Scout is the ranger right? I almost picked Scout just because I like bows. I might still beat Souldiers, but putting fire area/swamp area right next to each other took the wind outta my sails. I thought the music has been pretty good so far, except for the Great Pyramid, where the track itself is good but the flute (pungi?) synth they've chosen just sounds like a Nokia phone lol
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Jul 17, 2023 17:40
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Penguin Patrol posted:This is the part I have issue with, I haven't seen any objective design flaws listed. You've listed some elements you didn't like that I really enjoyed engaging with. Feel free to have opinions about the design choices, but have enough self-awareness to realize they're just your personal preferences. No, you see, you're just getting histrionic because you don't understand it's okay to like bad games.
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Jul 17, 2023 17:43
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People really just need to stop using the word objective.
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Jul 17, 2023 17:54
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GrandpaPants posted:People really just need to stop using the word objective. "You must complete your
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Jul 17, 2023 17:58
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Penguin Patrol posted:This is the part I have issue with, I haven't seen any objective design flaws listed. You've listed some elements you didn't like that I really enjoyed engaging with. Feel free to have opinions about the design choices, but have enough self-awareness to realize they're just your personal preferences. The map system fails at the most fundamental level of being a map. It is so radically different from the expectation / norm in ways that are worse that it fails at the most basic level to be the thing it is called. It is a map systems as much as a hotdog is a sandwich. If that is a philosophy you subscribe to, that’s fine. However that also means there isn’t much of a baseline, which leads to things like calling Zelda a metroidvania, etc. John Murdoch posted:No, you see, you're just getting histrionic because you don't understand it's okay to like bad games. Again. Never said Hollow Knight is a bad game. I personally feel it is mediocre but I won’t say it’s objectively bad. It is incredibly pretty so that is at least a positive it has. GrandpaPants posted:People really just need to stop using the word objective. If we can’t agree on the basics then I guess so. At this point the joke posts of calling Call of Duty Modern Warfare a metroidvania are no longer objectively wrong and instead opens up the plausibility to discuss all games as metroidvanias.
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Jul 17, 2023 18:16
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:The map system fails at the most fundamental level of being a map. It is so radically different from the expectation / norm in ways that are worse that it fails at the most basic level to be the thing it is called.  the map that clearly marks out hazards/benches/hot springs/npcs/stagway stations/trams, labels sub areas within each main area and fills in clear symbols to represent landmarks around the world, shows how everything interconnects, and has pins for you to mark your own locations on the map, "fails at the most fundamental level of being a map... it is a map system as much a hotdog is a sandwich. if that is a philosophy you subscribe to, that's fine" e: meanwhile, I've seen a couple different people say "the map in Ender Lilies is good" and have been looking at this poo poo for a little over an hour now 
bawk fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jul 17, 2023 |
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Jul 17, 2023 18:59
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There’s a certain amount of intellectual inflexibility that tends to infect people who play a lot of games in a genre. Why is it okay for Hollow Knight to include charms that make enemies easier to fight, but impermissible for it to include a charm that makes it easier to keep track of one’s position on the map? Why is it fine for Hyper Light Drifter to have difficult encounters which require precise timing and quick reactions, but a flaw for it to have an ambiguous map that requires careful study to get benefits from? The answer is that it’s easy to build up a wall in one’s own head, defining some skills as “the real game” and others as “bad friction that should be mitigated through better quality-of-life features.” But of course this distinction is something players bring to games; it’s not something that exists in the game itself. If you aspire to hold opinions worth mentioning, you must free yourself from these petty rules and understand games on their own terms.
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Jul 17, 2023 19:02
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Yes but you have to actually remember where you’ve been until you find a bench or a map merchant and doesn’t instantly autofill the grid, so it fails at being a map There’s a lot of arguments being made that something not being the most automated/simplistic form they can possibly take means that they are bad, rather than having merit for being more involved in some way. That’s a pretty simplistic view, but it’s valid so long as it isn’t being argued that anything more complex is a bad mechanic (which is unfortunately also happening). nrook posted:The answer is that it’s easy to build up a wall in one’s own head, defining some skills as “the real game” and others as “bad friction that should be mitigated through better quality-of-life features.” But of course this distinction is something players bring to games; it’s not something that exists in the game itself. If you aspire to hold opinions worth mentioning, you must free yourself from these petty rules and understand games on their own terms. This is actually happening right now in Street Fighter 6. There are a lot of people complaining about the new Modern control scheme, and how it’s bad for the game, or scrubby, or whatever other invective they want to spit towards it. Sajam noted that in large part this is coming from people who have internalized the view that “being good at fighting games” means “can execute special move inputs” and not being able to properly manage and react to the twenty other concurrent things happening in a match any given moment. Tortolia fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jul 17, 2023 |
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Jul 17, 2023 19:05
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Ender lilies has a good map and some of the best overall QOL of any of these games I’ve played. it shows exactly what rooms still have secrets to find, how many exits you haven’t found and roughly where they are, and a rough (but not overly cluttered) idea of the area’s structure. combined with easy fast travel it was really pleasant to 100%. been thinking about replaying it and I never replay games these days.
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Jul 17, 2023 19:17
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bawk posted:e: meanwhile, I've seen a couple different people say "the map in Ender Lilies is good" and have been looking at this poo poo for a little over an hour now I mean in this game's defense, is there any other info you need to know here? It lacks the specific terrain layouts of the HK map but it tells you everything you need to know, including the best feature which is if you're missing anything. I got everything in this game and it was easy to do so, if I had to follow an HK map to get something specific it'd be more difficult.
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Jul 17, 2023 19:38
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One thing in Ender Lilies would be nice is the ability to put markers so you'd remember where was that one locked door you could return to now that you have the ability to do so. The map is terrible for that (but the secrets remaining function is good).
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Jul 17, 2023 19:44
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Morpheus posted:I mean in this game's defense, is there any other info you need to know here? It lacks the specific terrain layouts of the HK map but it tells you everything you need to know, including the best feature which is if you're missing anything. It's basically giving me the opposite information that I want to know this early in the game I like HK's map because I can glance at almost any shape and know exactly what room it is, which makes the world feel very connected and memorable. Keeping track of the paths just out-of-reach and where obstacles come up is left to the player, and when you come back to handle those things, you can take the pins off the map. EL's map shows me the collectibles and side paths to come back to, but every room being a box means nothing to me. I've got no clue which box is which as far as room size, features, enemies, etc. I'd rather have an actual map of the landscape than a series of checkboxes in map form
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Jul 17, 2023 19:47
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bawk posted:It's basically giving me the opposite information that I want to know this early in the game Yeah fair enough. HK's map does have a better feeling of cohesion - you can look at that and see the world as a whole - even though it is a little overwhelming to try to find something specific.
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Jul 17, 2023 19:50
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