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It's a throwaway flavour spell some designer got to stick in for a bit of fun. It genuinely doesn't loving matter.
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Jul 17, 2023 22:41
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Also for people who really want to blast, kineticists are now an option. And you've still got a lot of potential utility access since a lot of those became classless rituals.
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Jul 18, 2023 00:42
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"Spell to count all the coins in the dragon's hoard instantly" has been a recurring thing in peripheral D&D content for probably four decades, and while I can't think of any instance where it would have ever been particularly useful, it's thematically appropriate for a certain style of resource-oriented gameplay, so it keeps getting reintroduced to new editions. (Even though the spell itself is of course not going to get used in those games, because learning and casting it is a strictly suboptimal expenditure of resources.)
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Jul 18, 2023 01:02
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Is dnd just all parties of 5 wizards or something? So there's a thing dating back to 3e that theoretically a wizard can be as good at any task as another class that is good at it. There's some truth to that, once you get higher in level, but even then it leads to Schroedinger's Wizard arguments - that a wizard can be better at everything than every class that is as good at it, and that isn't true; some of those abilities are mutually exclusive and even getting close costs a lot of money. If your GM lets you have an all-powerful wizard, they're either all in on powergaming, or they're not doing a very good job directing the party.
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Jul 18, 2023 07:10
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The idea of spellcasters being weak in 2e is from people trying to play them as single-target damage dealers. Spellcasters are often the best person in the group at buffing allies, debuffing enemies, or otherwise serving in some sort of a support or 'controller' role, and they even shine at group damage in the niche case that you get to throw a Fireball into a huge pack of zombies or what have you. Even accounting for things like True Strike and Shadow Signet using your highest rank spell slots will have you doing less damage on average than most martial characters can expect to inflict every single round because of how the action economy and bonuses/penalties work, however. I've done a lot of math on this, going all-out will still typically be about half as good as generic martial-class-with-bow builds mindlessly spamming arrows down-range. There's still a lot of single-target damage spells like Disintegrate out there though, so a lot of players will pick them without realizing that they have very specific use-cases to not effectively be trap options. They aren't even really good for a Magus to spellstrike with, the most damaging spell attacks come from focus spells over spell slots. I mean the Slow spell might as well read "on a critical failure the target immediately dies" for what it does, that's obviously almost always a better pick.
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Jul 18, 2023 09:44
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A magus should basically be spellstriking with cantrips (read: Gouging Claw) and heightened shocking grasp most of the time. The main exception is when you’ve ID’d a weakness you can hit.
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Jul 18, 2023 13:49
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A spell that could give a completely accurate count of items in a pile would be tremendously useful to merchants. Also on rare occasions for adventurers searching for a hidden void under a pile of rocks. A spell that goes "ehh, it's about a zillion, give or take" is a waste of brainpower. I'm just trying to imagine what game-breaking strategy could come from knowing there are exactly 3,479 coins in a chest.
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Jul 18, 2023 14:19
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Mirage posted:A spell that could give a completely accurate count of items in a pile would be tremendously useful to merchants. Also on rare occasions for adventurers searching for a hidden void under a pile of rocks. Genie/demons bets/contracts.
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Jul 18, 2023 15:24
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Mirage posted:A spell that could give a completely accurate count of items in a pile would be tremendously useful to merchants. Also on rare occasions for adventurers searching for a hidden void under a pile of rocks. The obvious game-breaking (maybe) strategy is "get NPCs to pay you to use it." As you say, it would be very useful to merchants, and also for military logistics, for example. Though assuming the buffed version of Approximate would still be a cantrip on all four spell lists, it would probably be common enough in-universe that the market price for it wouldn't be that high. So really, it would probably be fine.
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Jul 18, 2023 15:25
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This talk about casters is very relevant to me. I'm playing a sorcerer in a Blood Lords campaign, and we just hit level 19. It's my first ever PF2 campaign. I found low levels a bit miserable. Saving someone with Harm always feels good, but undead bloodline spells are pretty worthless against undead, and even when I picked up other attack spells they always felt underwhelming. Getting Electric Arc (via Adapted Cantrip) helped, but I was still kind of dissatisfied. So I did some reflection and decided to embrace my role as a supporter. Fear, Heroism, Drop Dead, and Haste became the new staples of my repertoire (in addition to Harm, of course). It completely changed my enjoyment of my character. Sure, my bloodline spells are still mostly worthless, but overall I've become much more happy and effective in combat. Coming from games like 13th Age, where casters have solid damage options, it required a serious shift in thinking, but having gone through all this I think casters can be super fun and satisfying.
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Jul 18, 2023 17:57
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For people using Foundry you can use: https://foundryvtt.com/packages/pf2e-modifiers-matter to help highlight just how useful +-1 buffs/debuffs are in PF2E.
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Jul 18, 2023 18:24
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It's kind of lame that casters can't really blast that well in P2e because it seems like they wanted to give classes a lot of flexibility in what they do. Our ranger makes a bunch of traps that are just spell effects which I find pretty cool. I just wish I could blast as good as a martial can attack, even if it was a feat tax I had to pay. I really think they need to change how cantrips scale and allow for multi attacks with them. Or just more one action cast spells that aren't that great but do support stuff. I never know what to do with my third action because we have an arcane lore Oracle who is the knowledge guy. It's like yeah, I can cast shield I guess but usually im positioning to where im probably not gonna get hit anyway. gurragadon fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 18:30
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Aid is a big third action for anyone. At higher levels, its pretty much a guaranteed +3 or +4. Outside of Sorc or Psychic, Caster damage is a lot of AOE/half damage on success. There is a couple spells that punch above its weight like Sudden Bolt, which is good to keep heightened. Magic Missile is also great for bosses since some damage is a lot better than a turn where everyone misses.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:00
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Approximate should give an extra digit of precision for each spell level that it is heightened, so that when you are casting 10th level spells you can casually count billions of items precisely.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:16
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Mechayahiko posted:Magic Missile is also great for bosses since some damage is a lot better than a turn where everyone misses. Even if the boss starts casting Shield to block the missiles, it's great to force them to spend actions on things that aren't killing your party.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:18
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Mechayahiko posted:Aid is a big third action for anyone. At higher levels, its pretty much a guaranteed +3 or +4. Outside of Sorc or Psychic, Caster damage is a lot of AOE/half damage on success. There is a couple spells that punch above its weight like Sudden Bolt, which is good to keep heightened. Magic Missile is also great for bosses since some damage is a lot better than a turn where everyone misses. Aid might be ok but I don't know how I can really aid with attacking as a wizard. Could you give an example because my DM isn't strict exactly, but stuff has to make sense. Magic Missile is my spell if I am standing still so I can get three bolts off and i'll probably prepare at higher levels eventually so I can machine gun it. Edit: Like out of combat with skills, as long as we are trained we can aid. But I don't think he's just gonna go with "I aid the ranger in attacking" Aid: Trigger An ally is about to use an action that requires a skill check or attack roll. Requirements The ally is willing to accept your aid, and you have prepared to help (see below). You try to help your ally with a task. To use this reaction, you must first prepare to help, usually by using an action during your turn. You must explain to the GM exactly how you’re trying to help, and they determine whether you can Aid your ally. When you use your Aid reaction, attempt a skill check or attack roll of a type decided by the GM. The typical DC is 20, but the GM might adjust this DC for particularly hard or easy tasks. The GM can add any relevant traits to your preparatory action or to your Aid reaction depending on the situation, or even allow you to Aid checks other than skill checks and attack rolls. Critical Success You grant your ally a +2 circumstance bonus to the triggering check. If you’re a master with the check you attempted, the bonus is +3, and if you’re legendary, it’s +4. Success You grant your ally a +1 circumstance bonus to the triggering check. Critical Failure Your ally takes a –1 circumstance penalty to the triggering check. vvv This is how it's worded on AON. Explain exactly how you're trying to help stands out to me. gurragadon fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 19:23
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Are the mechanics of aid just "use a skill check to give ally a bonus" and what you actually do, what skill you use, and how close you need to be just depends on how you say you're trying to aid them. It's then up the the DM to either allow it or not?
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Jul 18, 2023 19:27
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At the end of the day Aid depends on how groggy your GM is. Perception is an easy one you can use, you can point out openings, weakpoints, etc. For casters you can use your attack roll to fling some basic magic to help like a sudden flash of light, highlighting the weak point or giving your ally a bit more force. The knowledge skills would be similar, giving pointers or hints like this is the monster's blind spot. Social skills you can be encouraging your allies or distracting your opponent.
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Jul 18, 2023 19:45
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I could see using magical effects but that leads into the problem of every spell being two actions, so I doubt I could prepare light in one action to use it as a reaction. It's part of why I wish stuff like light, prestidigitation and the like were just 1 action casts. I'll try it out at the next session though and see how he feels about it and how much magic he's ok with me using on one action. To much grog at my table to get over the action limits I think. The 3 action economy is bad on a class that relies mostly on spells that are all 2 actions.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:05
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The other half of the Aid rules are more limiting: "It's up to you whether someone's preparation is enough to let them Aid an ally. The preparation should be specific to the task at hand. Helping someone hold a lockpick steady might be enough preparation to Aid an attempt to Pick a Lock, but just saying you're going to “encourage” them likely wouldn't. Second, the character who is attempting to Aid needs to be in a proper position to help, and able to convey any necessary information. Helping a character Climb a wall is pretty tough if the character a PC wishes to Aid is nowhere near them. Similarly, a character usually needs to be next to their ally or a foe to Aid the ally in attacking the foe. You'll also need to determine how long the preparation takes. Typically, a single action is sufficient to help with a task that's completed in a single round, but to help someone perform a long-term task, like research, the character has to help until the task is finished."
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Jul 18, 2023 20:08
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For super groggy tables, you can use your last action to pull out potions/elixirs/wands/etc. Have a couple situational wands (resist energy, stoneskin, fear) is usually a good play. You can also think about moving proactively, helping set up a flank to finish off a weak enemy, splitting up for AOEs, moving out of range/sight so enemies need to spend more actions to hurt you.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:36
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Toshimo posted:The other half of the Aid rules are more limiting: I mean, it still doesn't say this is impossible. Off the top of my head I'd say you could do a perception check to look for good hand/footholds, or a knowledge check for something like stonecutting to point out weak bricks, or rocks likely to fall if weight is put on them. It just seems like the only limit is how creative you can get to justify your "Aid", vs how much your DM wants to let you do it. The DM is fully able to increase the DC for unlikely methods though. Like Aid on picking a lock you could say you're doing a knowledge society about what brand of lock this might be to give tips to open it, but it may be a DC40 check. gurragadon posted:I could see using magical effects but that leads into the problem of every spell being two actions, so I doubt I could prepare light in one action to use it as a reaction. This is one thing that I've seen on both Critical Role and Dimension 20 (so 5e games, but popular streaming ttrpg's) that I really like is they'll allow minor magical effects that there aren't specific spells for, like there's no specific spell that just makes your hands slightly glow, but it's such a minor effect (with extremely limited utility) that Mercer and Mulligan more or less just handwave it. As long as whatever you're trying to do isn't stronger than a cantrip (or if it is, there's some kind of other limitation like a ten minute cast time or something). It's sort of like a magical equivalent of taking 10/20 on something, where certain effects might be much easier when you're not under a time constraint (ie, 2-action cast) or otherwise stressed. Extending this to distracting an enemy for the purposes of Aid is more iffy though but I'd fully allow it if the caster had dancing lights up, no question.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:00
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Actual plays are a cancer on the hobby. Keep that poo poo out of my game - if you were a player and you said you wanted to do something like how it was on Dimension 20/Critical Role I'd tell you to shut up or leave right there.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:33
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did an actual play kill your dog
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Jul 18, 2023 21:38
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Arivia posted:Actual plays are a cancer on the hobby. Keep that poo poo out of my game - if you were a player and you said you wanted to do something like how it was on Dimension 20/Critical Role I'd tell you to shut up or leave right there. This is very weird and aggro lol.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:40
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Andrast posted:did an actual play kill your dog No, but I'd rather actually play the game than get it mixed up with a bunch of scripted/semi-scripted content by professional actors and crews created for passive audience consumption.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:44
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Mechayahiko posted:For super groggy tables, you can use your last action to pull out potions/elixirs/wands/etc. Have a couple situational wands (resist energy, stoneskin, fear) is usually a good play. You can also think about moving proactively, helping set up a flank to finish off a weak enemy, splitting up for AOEs, moving out of range/sight so enemies need to spend more actions to hurt you. Thanks for the suggestions they have been really helpful. I think I'll lean into using my third action to pull out consumables and then use them on the following turn. Our DM is really into the magical setting and items so I can get them pretty easy. We've got the free archetype rule and I'm an alchemist so I think I might just start tossing bombs like crazy, with scrolls and wands as situational backup.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:44
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"Actual play podcasts are perverting the hobby, get that poo poo away from my table" has the same energy that "Storygames are perverting the hobby, get that poo poo away from my table" did ten years ago. Everything old is new again, grognards gonna grognard, gatekeepers gonna gatekeep
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Jul 18, 2023 21:52
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Froghammer posted:"Actual play podcasts are perverting the hobby, get that poo poo away from my table" has the same energy that "Storygames are perverting the hobby, get that poo poo away from my table" did ten years ago. Everything old is new again, grognards gonna grognard, gatekeepers gonna gatekeep Storygames are actually played by actual people playing the game. Actual plays are at best semi-scripted "professionals" creating a performance for an audience. This is an incredibly false analogy.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:53
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Right, except for the part where you're accusing people, presumably people that you're gaming with, that they're having fun incorrectly and / or perverting the hobby
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Jul 18, 2023 21:55
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Froghammer posted:Right, except for the part where you're accusing people, presumably people that you're gaming with, that they're having fun incorrectly and / or perverting the hobby I'm the one running the game, not Matt Mercer. If they (hypothetical players) don't like it they can go join an actual play cast. It's a change of fundamental expectations, not "having fun incorrectly."
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Jul 18, 2023 22:01
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The fact that you'd have a violent overreaction to a player doing something they've seen in an actual play, which is how people get into this hobby in 2023, says more about you than it does about Critical Role or Matt Mercer
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Jul 18, 2023 22:02
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Froghammer posted:The fact that you'd have a violent overreaction to a player doing something they've seen in an actual play, which is how people get into this hobby in 2023, says more about you than it does about Critical Role or Matt Mercer Ah yes, "be quiet or leave" is a violent overreaction. That says more about you than it does me.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:03
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If a player asks a question where my answer is going to be no. I don't say shut up or leave. I say, I'm sorry you can't do that, that's not a house rule or whatever I use. If the player escalates it from there then sure I might escalate it to suit But all that example is, is a player asking the DM if they can use aid, and justify it in universe by saying they can do some minor magical effect to help. Which is something that happens at like goddamn all tables I've been at. Players fishing for ways to help out. Just absurdly aggro and ranty about actual play at someone simply mentioning that they saw it on some stream. Dexo fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 22:18
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Dexo posted:If a player asks a question where my answer is going to be no. I don't say shut up or leave. I say, I'm sorry you can't do that, that's not a house rule or whatever I use. No, it was foregrounded as "here's what they do on APs, so it should work at your table." I have no problem with a player asking how Aid can be narratively justified (I have a player in my Abomination Vaults game that's built for it, in fact.) but they should be talking about our game, not whatever the gently caress Matt Mercer is up to. My objection is to "hey, let's do this like Critical Role," not asking questions and talking things out together. Like you said, that's a natural part of play.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:21
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Arivia posted:Actual plays are a cancer on the hobby. Keep that poo poo out of my game - if you were a player and you said you wanted to do something like how it was on Dimension 20/Critical Role I'd tell you to shut up or leave right there. Ok but also the actual point was about the PF2/5e/etc system missing small magical superpowers and how it's fun to use them for narrative effect/justification for aid given how restricted most magic really is, mechanically and diagetically speaking Skill feats could do this if they were less aggressively niche and mundane, but, well... and in lieu of that, giving/allowing players (and NPCs!) flavorful minor sub-cantrip powers does a lot to bring magic from the regimented status of super firearms, artillery, and limited coding to a living part of the overall world tossing in actual play GMs who do this as examples of how it can enhance a game seems perfectly reasonable, the same way linking to, say, something from The Alexandrian on the topic would be Jen X fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 22:25
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Arivia posted:No, it was foregrounded as "here's what they do on APs, so it should work at your table." I have no problem with a player asking how Aid can be narratively justified (I have a player in my Abomination Vaults game that's built for it, in fact.) but they should be talking about our game, not whatever the gently caress Matt Mercer is up to. My objection is to "hey, let's do this like Critical Role," not asking questions and talking things out together. Like you said, that's a natural part of play. That is not what happened and that you perceive it so and reacted so violently to that perception says enormous, encyclopedic volumes about your character.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:26
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Jen X posted:Ok but also the actual point was about the PF2/5e/etc system missing small magical superpowers and how it's fun to use them for narrative effect given how restricted most magic really is, mechanically and diagetically speaking In 5e artificers get this through the Magical Tinkering class effect., which is like a toolkit of moderately trivial magical effects. quote:Magical Tinkering
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Jul 18, 2023 22:27
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boxen posted:I mean, it still doesn't say this is impossible. Off the top of my head I'd say you could do a perception check to look for good hand/footholds, or a knowledge check for something like stonecutting to point out weak bricks, or rocks likely to fall if weight is put on them. It just seems like the only limit is how creative you can get to justify your "Aid", vs how much your DM wants to let you do it. The DM is fully able to increase the DC for unlikely methods though. Like Aid on picking a lock you could say you're doing a knowledge society about what brand of lock this might be to give tips to open it, but it may be a DC40 check. Perception isn't a skill in PF2E, so it's not eligible to give or receive Aid.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:27
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Arivia posted:No, it was foregrounded as "here's what they do on APs, so it should work at your table." I have no problem with a player asking how Aid can be narratively justified (I have a player in my Abomination Vaults game that's built for it, in fact.) but they should be talking about our game, not whatever the gently caress Matt Mercer is up to. My objection is to "hey, let's do this like Critical Role," not asking questions and talking things out together. Like you said, that's a natural part of play. The poster here as a suggestion suggested something they saw on Critical role or D20. They didn't say "WELL CRITICAL ROLE DID IT SO IT SHOULD HE FINE HERE". Like chillax lol, literally everyone else got the intent of that post and didn't ascribe some grand pronouncement of this is how it should be, all games must be like CR. But simply a suggestion to someone else asking how to handle a situation. Someone was asking for opinions about using small amounts of magic as justification for aid and you went on a angry screed about your takes on Actual Play Podcasts.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:27
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