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Icon Of Sin posted:Probably helped by Al Matthews being a former marine, William Hope loving nailed the “inexperienced LT in over his head” role. On top of this, when filming the movie James Cameron deliberately kept William Hope isolated from the other Marine actors during preproduction and rehearsals, so while the other actors were able to organically form bonds with each other, Hope was literally an outsider both on and off the set.
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Jul 18, 2023 11:05
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redshirt posted:I love that Gorman got to go out like a champ. Incredibly badass, both him and Vasquez.
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Jul 18, 2023 12:59
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edogawa rando posted:At the end of the day, Gorman's biggest failings were that he was lacking in experience which made him overcompensate by being such a stickler for formality and rules, and that he lacked the ability to think flexibly on his feet, e.g., him overcomplicating instructions to Apone over the radio, and freezing under pressure when poo poo was really hitting the fan at an even greater rate than it was a few minutes ago. It doesn't make him a bad person, it just made him a bad leader that had potential to grow into the role. Agreed. There's nothing malicious about Gorman. Just incompetence. He just wasn't the right man for the job. Though you have to wonder about the entire Colonial Marine system which would promote such a candidate.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:54
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Gorman panicking and his “Ripley what the hell are you DOING” when she decides to take over the APC is so well delivered it’s one of my favorite character moments in the movie.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:01
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redshirt posted:Agreed. There's nothing malicious about Gorman. Just incompetence. He just wasn't the right man for the job. probably one that was persistently undermanned and constantly subject to scraping the bottom of the barrel like sending a half strength platoon to either police a colony of hundreds or ensure apex predator xenomorphs make it back to company research labs, depending on who you ask vvvvvvvvvvv and it probably would have still ended up more or less similarly regardless, but Gorman didnt even have the chance to pick one of those options, since its heavily implied if not outright called out that he was meeting most of his platoon for the first time when they woke up, if he met anyone prior to that point it would have been apone and only apone, and probably just once at that HiroProtagonist fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 23:02
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redshirt posted:Though you have to wonder about the entire Colonial Marine system which would promote such a candidate. It’s pretty much in keeping with real life in the USMC, and from what I understand, the Army. Officers go to college for four years to get their degree, then go to Officers Candidate School, and later something called The Basic School. At least this was how it was when I was in the USMC. Anyway, a second Lieutenant comes out of this with a senior rank to all enlisted people, but in reality they usually don’t know much more than a Lance Corporal (E-3 on the enlisted rank scale) For infantry, he’s usually going to be assigned as a platoon leader, like Gorman. The smart ones will cozy up to the platoon sergeant, who will be an enlisted man with 10+ years of service, and knows a lot more. Some of them wind up being really good, after this tutelage. Some don’t.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:02
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Yep. Gorman was super fresh and all commissioned officers start out somewhere. Commissioned officers don't get promoted up from Private. Even the most legendary officers in history like Patton and Nimitz all started out as a junior officer with a bunch of education and training but no real experience in charge of a small number of enlisted men. So Gorman being thrust into the poo poo and dying alongside most of his squad isn't even that surprising. Normally it doesn't involve aliens but in the big wars there were tons of junior officers killed along with their men. He probably didn't have the raw aptitude of those who make the history books but he probably would have had a fine but unspectacular career if he didn't die on his second real mission.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:15
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its probably buried somewhere in this thread but there's a compelling theory that isn't at all actually suggested anywhere in the film itself (or the directors cut, for that matter) that the company deliberately chose the unit most likely to get hosed up and mauled badly enough to have to bail back to earth without the opportunity for an orderly retreat that would give time for someone to start asking inconvenient questions if I had to guess its probably one of Xenomrph's posts but i cant recall
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Jul 18, 2023 23:19
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MrMojok posted:It’s pretty much in keeping with real life in the USMC, and from what I understand, the Army. This tracks with the army too. It’s a commissioning source (west point, ROTC, or OCS), then the infantry officer course, then airborne school and a shot at ranger school. You’ll arrive to your unit extremely well-trained (like Gorman and his 38 simulated drops), but you’re still a brand new lieutenant who hasn’t spent a day in a unit that actually deploys yet. Gorman wasn’t a stereotype; he was the real loving deal. Al Matthews had to have some hand in that, dude was as marine as they come. He was the first Black marine to earn a battlefield promotion to sergeant, dude was a marine through and through.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:20
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This mild derail about military officer culture is fascinating, thanks. I have a question in that vein: BattleMaster mentioned that COs "don't get promoted up from private." Is there any precedent at all in existing militaries for an enlisted person to become an officer via field promotion? Or even if they display exemplary skill and knowledge, do they have to get sent to officer school first?
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Jul 18, 2023 23:30
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When I was in, I knew many examples of what people called “mustangs,” which was somebody who enlisted in the USMC and worked their way up to E-4 or whatever but also managed to get a degree while doing so, then went to OCS and TBS and became 2nd Lieutenants. We all loved these types of officers. Their prior enlisted time really served them well and they tended to be much better officers when they got commissioned than the ones who were in ROTC while they went to college, and later did the OCS and TBS thing. From memory, I do believe there are some historical US Army and USMC examples of people getting battlefield commissions and going from enlisted to officer during wars. I don’t have any examples at hand, and I’d imagine they are mostly in the distant past. But I’m sure it has happened.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:37
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Yeah sorry I should have qualified that with "almost all of the time." Also Corporal and higher (or equivalent in the Navy) are considered to be "non-commissioned officers." I'm not actually military but it's my understanding that there are people who are perfectly happy to never become an NCO and just want to do a job for a while. Promotions above Private or Specialist or similar are things people choose if they actually want the greater responsibility. So by the time you reach Sergeant or other similar NCO ranks you probably have a good aptitude for what would make an officer, even though it's not typical for NCOs to be promoted directly to officer. So it's possible that Hudson being a Private while about to leave the Corps was because he was a discipline problem who got busted down... or more likely he really just wanted to do a job, get paid, and leave after a tour of duty. Apone was probably never going to become a Lieutenant unless he had a particular level of ambition and put in the extra work to get a degree, but he seemed like the type who was like "I'm not an officer, I work for a living"
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Jul 19, 2023 00:03
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lol i forgot hudson had a line about being four weeks or whatever it was from retirement being a terminal lance is one thing but lol at doing 20+ years and leaving as a PFC e: actually was it retirement? or just end of enlistment. could have sworn it carried some reference to a pension or implied some kind of income HiroProtagonist fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 00:08
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Just end of enlistment. I wouldn't imagine 30ish year old Bill Paxton had about 20 years in.
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Jul 19, 2023 00:12
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I have a piece of equipment at work that always reminds me of these:
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Jul 19, 2023 00:12
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Animal-Mother posted:I have a piece of equipment at work that always reminds me of these: solidarity in your ongoing strike then  mixing up my unions ftw but i'm leaving it
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Jul 19, 2023 00:16
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MrMojok posted:When I was in, I knew many examples of what people called “mustangs,” which was somebody who enlisted in the USMC and worked their way up to E-4 or whatever but also managed to get a degree while doing so, then went to OCS and TBS and became 2nd Lieutenants. That makes sense. Kind of like how most decent companies will promote a person from within who learns the ins and outs of it (assuming they don't get promoted simply by kissing rear end) while most lovely ones opt to bring in "consultants" who look at the place and its spreadsheets for 2 weeks and then decide who to fire without even talking to them or who otherwise hire another person from an equally lovely company one zip code over.
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Jul 19, 2023 00:21
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Mister Speaker posted:This mild derail about military officer culture is fascinating, thanks. I have a question in that vein: BattleMaster mentioned that COs "don't get promoted up from private." Is there any precedent at all in existing militaries for an enlisted person to become an officer via field promotion? Or even if they display exemplary skill and knowledge, do they have to get sent to officer school first? Battlefield promotions are a thing, but exceedingly rare. Audie Murphy got one from staff sergeant (E6) to lieutenant (O1), but the man had also earned every/nearly every combat commendation that the US army had to offer during that time, so he’s a bit of an outlier  He stayed in theater and continued doing what got him that promotion in the first place (killing nazis).
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Jul 19, 2023 00:45
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Icon Of Sin posted:Battlefield promotions are a thing, but exceedingly rare. Audie Murphy got one from staff sergeant (E6) to lieutenant (O1), but the man had also earned every/nearly every combat commendation that the US army had to offer during that time, so he’s a bit of an outlier Also a sexy bitch.
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Jul 19, 2023 01:18
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MrMojok posted:When I was in, I knew many examples of what people called “mustangs,” which was somebody who enlisted in the USMC and worked their way up to E-4 or whatever but also managed to get a degree while doing so, then went to OCS and TBS and became 2nd Lieutenants. Yeah battlefield commissions were nixed after Vietnam, when there weren't too many battlefields in which you could be a sergeant who assumed the leadership mantle after everyone else got killed. They brought the tradition back for the middle east conflicts but it wasn't widely implemented. USMC has Warrant Officers which are enlisted men who are extremely adept at their MOS and are called to be the ersatz Adeptus Mechanicus officers of their units, and are treated exactly as a commissioned officer is, but the name gives the difference away: they are granted their office because their skill warrants it, not via being sought/commissioned for office due to their credentials. The WO in my unit (comms/electronics) basically just kept to himself and soldered stuff all day and people ignored him, but it turned out he was using our field exercises to test a new system of uninterruptable battery supply for our radios that used larger power banks of car batteries that used solar recharging instead of relying on disposable batteries for semi-permanent comm emplacements that needed constant resupply. Neat dude. Come to think of it there's a warrant officer in Alien, weird Pissed Ape Sexist fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 02:11
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Yeah, Warrant Officers rock. It’s somebody who is an absolute expert in their job. They still technically rate below that 23 year-old 1st Lt. who just went through OCS and TBS, but this dude is a crusty old Marine who’s had the same MOS for twelve or so plus years, and knows his poo poo.
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Jul 19, 2023 02:29
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Would Ripley have qualified for/gotten a field commission?
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Jul 19, 2023 02:33
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HiroProtagonist posted:lol i forgot hudson had a line about being four weeks or whatever it was from retirement Thinking About Bill Paxton (the Actor) 
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Jul 19, 2023 02:37
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Biplane posted:Thinking About Bill Paxton (the Actor) "How do I get out of this chickenshit outfit?"
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Jul 19, 2023 02:43
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redshirt posted:Would Ripley have qualified for/gotten a field commission? No but Hicks would have. RIP impaled bro
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Jul 19, 2023 02:54
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redshirt posted:Would Ripley have qualified for/gotten a field commission? No, at least not going by real-world rules. She’s a civilian.
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Jul 19, 2023 03:29
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BattleMaster posted:Yeah sorry I should have qualified that with "almost all of the time." It's not strictly true that people get to choose to remain at a particular enlisted rank. When I was in the USAF, the way it worked was you started out with no stripes after basic training (Airman Basic), then automatically got your first promotion (Airman, one stripe) after 6 months. Another 12 months after that you were automatically promoted again (Airman First Class, two stripes), and then another year and a half after that, you received your final automatic promotion (Senior Airman, three stripes). Along the way with each promotion you were also expected to advance in your career field with various tests and certifications and such. Obviously these promotions could be held up or even denied due to misconduct, but you would've had to have been a real fuckup for that to happen. Once you hit SrA, you were likely close to re-enlistment time, so you had to make the decision to either re-up or not; if you re-upped, you then had to take and pass your first promotion exam (for Staff Sergeant, four stripes). From that point forward, you were expected to keep advancing in rank, career development (more tests and certifications), and personal development (going to college classes). You could only spend a certain amount of time in a particular rank; if you failed to advance to the next rank after a certain number of years in your current rank, the USAF pretty much cut their losses and you would not be eligible for re-enlistment. This would screw you over if you were hoping to hit the magic retirement number of 20 years, because you don't get a pension or any additional benefits for doing less than 20, so it was important to try and advance as high as you could (at least until you got within spitting distance of 20 years, if you wanted that retirement pension). Not 100% for sure if this works the same way in the other branches of the military, but I'm pretty sure they have similar methods to make sure someone doesn't spend 20 years stuck as a PFC or whatnot. Most career NCOs generally don't transition into the officer corps because by the time you've started reaching the higher ranks of the NCO cadre, you've developed the skills and connections necessary to be able to operate around incompetent or overeager junior officers. A buddy of mine from the USAF had a dad who retired as a sergeant major from the Army, and his dad said he could basically get in the rear end of any officer below the rank of major. He had to do so respectfully, but the senior officers knew that he knew his poo poo and would have his back as long as he followed protocol. Also, in terms of the retirement pension I mentioned, it's usually determined not just by length of service, but also by your rank at the time of retirement and how long you were in that rank. A career NCO who's a master sergeant or above would actually make less money in retirement if he suddenly decided to become a 2nd lieutenant.
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Jul 19, 2023 03:43
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Thanks for that. I guess I was thinking more like people who were in it for one tour or some other fairly short term, but I didn't realize that there was such a schedule to promotions. I figured people who were in for the very short term may not necessarily want more responsibility, even if it comes with higher pay. edit: I know a couple of people who were in the Army or Marines for a single tour and I thought they told me they weren't interested in more responsibility but maybe I misunderstood and they were still promoted on a schedule and just got out while they could BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 03:50
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BattleMaster posted:
People will absolutely do one enlistment and get out of the military. They may not have wanted any more responsibility but in most cases they decide this bullshit just isn’t for them. In the USMC you a a private (E-1) on your first day in boot camp. You’ll get automatically get promoted to Private First Class in six months. Then you make Lance Corporal in, I want to say, eight months later? It was automatic. Depending on your job (MOS) you will be promoted to E-4 at some point, but there are other things that go into it than just time in service. Like how many people in your job there are at the time. That factors into a “cutting score,” and whether you meet that cutting score or not depends on things like your “proficiency and conduct” scores, and awards you might have gotten, etc. When I was in as an E-3 there was a glut of people above me in my job who were E-4s, and so the cutting score was very high. I was an E-3 for like 32 months, which was kind of stupid at the time. If the USCMC works the same way in the Aliens universe, Hudson definitely got busted down in rank at some point, as did Drake, which are the only two junior enlisted people I remember whose rank was mentioned, except for Hicks. But it could also be that the USCMC doesn’t promote as quickly, and even more likely, the writers weren’t familiar with how it all worked IRL and thought Hicks should be an NCO and everyone else privates, except for Apone.
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Jul 19, 2023 04:37
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I showed u my privates, answer me [chuckling xenomorph noises]
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Jul 19, 2023 05:46
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MrMojok posted:But it could also be that the USCMC doesn’t promote as quickly, and even more likely, the writers weren’t familiar with how it all worked IRL and thought Hicks should be an NCO and everyone else privates, except for Apone. No one deserved to be promoted because they were such a chicken poo poo outfit. That's why Hudson wanted to bugger off.
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Jul 19, 2023 08:59
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edogawa rando posted:No one deserved to be promoted because they were such a chicken poo poo outfit. That's why Hudson wanted to bugger off. Mods??
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Jul 19, 2023 09:07
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MrMojok posted:
Well Drake seems to be a kind of guy who would get in to bar fights just for fun.
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Jul 19, 2023 10:02
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It was in one of the comics (I think?), that Hudson had previously been a corporal before punching an officer (maybe Gorman’s predecessor?). Details are fuzzy, I can’t remember where I saw that.
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Jul 19, 2023 13:02
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Fish of hemp posted:Well Drake seems to be a kind of guy who would get in to bar fights just for fun. AKA your typical Colonial Marine.
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Jul 19, 2023 18:06
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HiroProtagonist posted:[chuckling xenomorph noises]
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Jul 19, 2023 20:33
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Newest Alien issue is out and we get a thing or two: A white face hugger. And a white Xeno with some differences than the norm. Oh and turns out the mother of the story arch who is having a kid decided to make a hybrid and used Alien DNA. She doesn't survive the birthing. Seemingly neither does the baby who we don't really get to see except for three white fingers. You know it's alive.
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Jul 20, 2023 00:08
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The Last Call posted:Newest Alien issue is out and we get a thing or two: Alien issue of what?
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Jul 20, 2023 00:25
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Pennywise the Frown posted:Alien issue of what? Burke got his DNA sample I assume
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Jul 20, 2023 00:29
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Pennywise the Frown posted:Alien issue of what? Marvels latest Alien issue.
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Jul 20, 2023 00:32
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