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Lamuella posted:In 5e artificers get this through the Magical Tinkering class effect., which is like a toolkit of moderately trivial magical effects. This is great, its like an annoyance machine. Is there anything like this in pathfinder 2e? Because that would be a good way to give aid that is descriptive and amusing.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:30
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gurragadon posted:This is great, its like an annoyance machine. Is there anything like this in pathfinder 2e? Because that would be a good way to give aid that is descriptive and amusing. Probably the Prestidigitation cantrip could be made to fit the mold https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=229
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Jul 18, 2023 22:33
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Jen X posted:Ok but also the actual point was about the PF2/5e/etc system missing small magical superpowers and how it's fun to use them for narrative effect/justification for aid given how restricted most magic really is, mechanically and diagetically speaking Magic is a living part of the existing world. Paizo has a whole book on this, the lost omens travel guide. Handwaving magic doing more poo poo gets us back towards 3e/PF1e style "magic can do anything" and cutting down on that was a really important, good part of 2e's design so let's not! Magic is restricted in this system for very good reason. quote:tossing in actual play GMs who do this as examples of how it can enhance a game seems perfectly reasonable, the same way linking to, say, something from The Alexandrian on the topic would be And no - Justin Alexander gives advice and writes about actual games. Matt Mercer does a collaborative performance for an audience. It's not an actual roleplaying game and it's a fool's mistake to confuse them.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:35
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Hey, here's a fun idea, let's talk about Pathfinder 2e in the Pathfinder 2e thread.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:36
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Lmao. Lol. Laffo Edit: to Arriva not the above. Anyway, I've had a player, who hadn't seen any of those evil fake actual play podcasts, say they want to use electricity that they can create via electric arc to give an aid check on a apply first aid stabilize that another player was doing and I said, sure. And let them use an arcana or nature roll to help. It's really really not that serious, if you don't want to allow something like that, it's understandable. It's fine, I'm not saying that it is required everyone play like that. But also I don't particularly think it is just the domain of the "evil fake" actual play podcasts lol. Dexo fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 22:43
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Perfidious Mercer
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Jul 18, 2023 22:44
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Dexo posted:Lmao. Lol. Laffo Edit: to Arriva not the above. I'd be tempted to flavour this with a critical fail meaning he zapped himself in the face by accident.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:46
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Boba Pearl posted:Perfidious Mercer I don't think that's correct either. My understanding is Mercer doesn't pretend he does things right like you do at the kitchen table, and neither does Critical Role at large. It's the fans confusing a performance for the real thing, and insisting on actual play interpretations/ideas being the right way to play actual RPGs, that's the issue.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:47
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Lamuella posted:I'd be tempted to flavour this with a critical fail meaning he zapped himself in the face by accident. The critical fail just provides the normal aid critical fail penalty. As I didn't want to stray too far from playing "real" games and stray too far into that fake poo poo the actual play folks do. I'm a real gamer.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:49
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Anyone who thinks CR is scripted clearly hasn't tried to sit through a shopping episode. And it's not like there aren't plenty of Actual Plays that are just actual recordings of actual people actually playing their actual real-life tabletop games, even if you're so self-absorbed that you think the professional actors are out to pervert the purity of your players. Foaming at the mouth about Actual Plays just makes you sound like a rabid stoneage grognard.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:49
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I should be the last person to make fun of this to be honest, because I was the worst about it, like just rabid about hating actual plays. Then I found Dimension 20, now I'm all parasocialized and poo poo.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:52
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Arivia posted:Magic is a living part of the existing world. Paizo has a whole book on this, the lost omens travel guide. Handwaving magic doing more poo poo gets us back towards 3e/PF1e style "magic can do anything" and cutting down on that was a really important, good part of 2e's design so let's not! Magic is restricted in this system for very good reason. Regardless of whether or not it's a mistake to restrict magic the way Paizo has for Golarion, that is up for any given table to make that choice. Would it work for some tables? Would it destroy the immersive experience for others? Would they be better served playing a different system with magic that does more poo poo? Are they about to make a mistake? Maybe! But let them make that mistake, and if they ever arrive at your table, you will do your best to get on the same page or part ways as needed. Regardless of how correct your approach to PF2e magic is, your adhering to the specifics of Paizo's world should have no bearing on what someone somewhere else does. They might be using the system for a campaign that isn't even set in the universe of Golarion! The PF2e Gamemastery Guide even has rough guidelines on approaching varying degrees of magic ubiquity for a custom world. If anyone is looking to Mercer et. al. for the perfect ways to run a TTRPG campaign, I may disagree with them, but that's their choice to make, and unless they're actively pushing me to make the same exact choices, they're fully within their right. And in any case, I don't think anyone here is holding up Critical Role, Dimension 20, or any other Actual Play as an example of sterling GMing. Rather, maybe someone (like boxen for instance) might see a neat ruling that could work for their table and can bring it it up as a point for discussion. I don't think that's them saying that people must run things the way Mercer, Mulligan, or anyone else does. A Meatslab fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 22:53
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Zurai posted:Anyone who thinks CR is scripted clearly hasn't tried to sit through a shopping episode. And it's not like there aren't plenty of Actual Plays that are just actual recordings of actual people actually playing their actual real-life tabletop games, even if you're so self-absorbed that you think the professional actors are out to pervert the purity of your players. Foaming at the mouth about Actual Plays just makes you sound like a rabid stoneage grognard.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:54
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The fault with using an AP to shape your expectations of play isn't that APs are scripted but that a lot of the time they're being done by professional actors and improvisers, and that for audio ones a lot of the time they're edited. The letdown is that Ian who runs your Tuesday game isn't good at voices and can't respond in the moment to your character having a flight of melodrama, not that Matt Mercer and Sam Riegel sit down and work out what Fresh Cut Grass is going to do that week. (also no home game, no matter how many tiers of Syrinscape you buy, has Taylor Moore doing the background audio)
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Jul 18, 2023 23:03
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Froghammer posted:There are people on the internet playing games wrong brb deleting my SA account, I can't have you filthy FORUMS POSTERS sullying the PURITY of my home games with your pitiful OPINIONS on serious TABLETOP BATTLE SIMULATORS
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Jul 18, 2023 23:05
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Zurai posted:Foaming at the mouth about Actual Plays just makes you sound like a rabid stoneage grognard. I guess I'm happy to be a rabid stone-age grognard if it means I care about the actual game I'm playing, not how it's interpreted for public performance by paid actors. A Meatslab posted:Regardless of whether or not it's a mistake to restrict magic the way Paizo has for Golarion, that is up for any given table to make that choice. Would it work for some tables? Would it destroy the immersive experience for others? Would they be better served playing a different system with magic that does more poo poo? Are they about to make a mistake? Maybe! But let them make that mistake, and if they ever arrive at your table, you will do your best to get on the same page or part ways as needed. The point I made was one of game balance, not the narrative role of magic. Yes, you can change that for your table, but it's indisputable that Paizo deliberately reduced the power and flexibility of magic in 2e, because that was an explicit design during playtesting. quote:If anyone is looking to Mercer et. al. for the perfect ways to run a TTRPG campaign, I may disagree with them, but that's their choice to make, and unless they're actively pushing me to make the same exact choices, they're fully within their right. The post that started this was boxen saying that doing an aid action like some stuff is done on big 5e actual plays (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4010191&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=76#post533283085), which is directly advocating for adapting those ideas to your own Pathfinder game. (So, yes, using it as an example of "sterling GMing" in at least one aspect.) I rejected that on the basis of not wanting it in my own game, and I made why clear. Anything from AP poo poo is tainted, IMO. You can run your game your way (and that applies to everyone playing RPGs), but don't be surprised by someone going "that poo poo sucks."
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Jul 18, 2023 23:08
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You act as if it's some grave mistake for a player to even ask to use a cantrip they can do to try and negotiate for an aid roll Like man my players ask for more out there poo poo all the time, I'll often say no, but I love them asking because they'll occasionally come up with something narratively fun and interesting. They just said they noticed it as something that they do on CR/D20 not that it was anything other than a suggestion and you just went completely aggro at the mention of it.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:21
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Dexo posted:You act as if it's some grave mistake for a player to even ask to use a cantrip they can do to try and negotiate for an aid roll I made the point before but it's fine for a player to ask for that at the table, even if I disagree. What I'm arguing against is the idea of "do it like this way the APs do," with that being how playing the game is thought of and learned.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:23
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Arivia posted:The post that started this was boxen saying that doing an aid action like some stuff is done on big 5e actual plays (https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4010191&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=76#post533283085), which is directly advocating for adapting those ideas to your own Pathfinder game. (So, yes, using it as an example of "sterling GMing" in at least one aspect.) I rejected that on the basis of not wanting it in my own game, and I made why clear. Anything from AP poo poo is tainted, IMO. You can run your game your way (and that applies to everyone playing RPGs), but don't be surprised by someone going "that poo poo sucks." Once again: that is not actually what was said in the post you're referring to. What boxen actually said was that they saw it used in CR/D20 and liked it and adapted it to their game (see: "I'd allow it, no question"). They also pointed out that the DM had the final say, multiple times. Seriously, you're putting words in their mouth and acting like they're The loving Actual Devil and are acting all :pikachuface: when people bite back.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:23
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Zurai posted:Once again: that is not actually what was said in the post you're referring to. You obviously didn't read the post you're responding to, either, since you seem to be tilting at some windmill that's not anything I said.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:24
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Arivia posted:You obviously didn't read the post you're responding to, either Excellent to see that you can admit you didn't read the post. I'll expect an apology to boxen and the thread posthaste.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:26
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Arivia posted:You obviously didn't read the post you're responding to, either, since you seem to be tilting at some windmill that's not anything I said. Wow, imagine someone in this thread tilting at windmills
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Jul 18, 2023 23:29
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Arivia posted:What I'm arguing against is the idea of "do it like this way the APs do," with that being how playing the game is thought of and learned. Yeah, not my intent. Not sure how you read that intent into what I wrote but let's just say: I saw something done a certain way in games with a similar style although different rules, thought it was fun, and suggested it could be brought into others' games. Your dissenting opinion is that just because something is allowed in some other games, doesn't mean it will be automatically allowed at your or any other table. I can't find fault with that. I'll even agree with you in that I've seen players in games I've both run and have been playing in say "I was watching (pf2e actual play with non-professional players) and they did (thing) this way, so I want to do that thing too" and seen the suggestions shot down for both "that's not how the rules work, they just did it their own way and we're not doing that" and "that's dumb, we're not doing that" reasons. We apparently have different opinions on Actual Plays but I don't see any reason why anyone else would care, and this isn't the thread for it in any case.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:31
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Arivia posted:Matt Mercer does a collaborative performance for an audience. It's not an actual roleplaying game Glossing over the conspiracy theory-rear end "IT'S ALL SCRIPTED!!!!  " bit, in what universe are tabletop games not literally a collaborative performance with rules
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Jul 18, 2023 23:33
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boxen posted:Yeah, not my intent. Not sure how you read that intent into what I wrote but let's just say: The point I'm making is that APs are fundamentally not "games" in the ways we prepare, play, and discuss them, and letting them influence our actual gaming is poison. If you (the generic you, not you specifically boxen) want to suggest something you've thought of, or that you've tried in another actual roleplaying game, go for it. But that's an actual act of play significantly different from watching an AP on Twitch or YouTube or whatever. Your reduction of "a thing I saw on Critical Role/Dimension 20" to being "something done a certain way in games with a similar style" is insulting to everyone actually playing RPGs.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:36
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No it's seemingly only insulting to you personally. Literally the only person enraged by their suggestion. I play RPGs, and GM RPGs I'm not particularly insulted because I like actually looked at the thing they were suggesting, and didn't rage out because they happened to get that idea from a actual play podcast/stream
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Jul 18, 2023 23:37
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Dexo posted:No it's seemingly only insulting to you personally. I mean I don't like APs but that's more my weird brain worms making me feel like I'm invading in on something that's normally a private thing, in spite of them literally and actively broadcasting it out to other people.  I'm not gonna write a screed about how ackshually it's not from the roleplay region of France therefore
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Jul 18, 2023 23:39
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Like I picked up house rule ideas and other things like crafting changes from tabletop discords and reddit. And hell this very forum The source doesn't particularly matter, it's just if the actual rule I/my players find cool enough to implement. Like I think CR's death rules are absolutely silly, but not because they are from CR but because they just exist to "make death matter more, and make it harder to come back". Not because they are from CR. Dexo fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 23:42
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Ah, yes, my favorite Pathfinder 2e discussion. Critical Role.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:52
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Maybe it'd be cool to jump topics. Might be my conflict aversion bubbling to the surface, but it feels like we're going to arrive at a point where we'll be talking past each other. Arivia (and anyone else here, I guess) -- what do you like about PF2e's approach to magic? I've been enjoying the way the "Four Traditions" framework is a cool set-up for how they build out the various caster classes. edit: uh?! A Meatslab fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 23:53
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Dexo posted:No it's seemingly only insulting to you personally. I’d be insulted just as much if someone said having actual sex with a partner could be part of the same discussion as porn (another set of acts done solely for the connection and enjoyment of participants being interchanged with similar mechanics performed and recorded for the enjoyment of an audience.)
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Jul 18, 2023 23:55
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I am troubled and concerned regarding the discourse around tabletop role playing podcasts and you tubes.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:59
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Arivia posted:I’d be insulted just as much if someone said having actual sex with a partner could be part of the same discussion as porn (another set of acts done solely for the connection and enjoyment of participants being interchanged with similar mechanics performed and recorded for the enjoyment of an audience.) loving lmao. Just lmao. You're on one... I'm done Pathfinder 2e is a great and fun system. Would like better crafting rules tho.
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Jul 19, 2023 00:00
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Dexo posted:Pathfinder 2e is a great and fun system. Would like better crafting rules tho. Yeah, the ones in the core rulebooks were kind of a bummer that seemed to ask for a very specific campaign structure. Did the Treasure Vault book end up doing anything good to fix it? Do we know what any changes in the Remaster will look like?
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Jul 19, 2023 00:05
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A Meatslab posted:Arivia (and anyone else here, I guess) -- what do you like about PF2e's approach to magic? With the caveat that I haven't looked too much at the extended materials, I think the four traditions framework is a good way to cut down on the complexity of different class spell lists and also, yes, set up building them differently. It enables fun stuff like divine sorcerers, and it also formalized occult magic as part of the basic building blocks of the setting, instead of making it a come-later with the Dark Archive and further books. Dexo posted:Pathfinder 2e is a great and fun system. Would like better crafting rules tho. Did the alternate crafting rules in Treasure Vault not work for you?
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Jul 19, 2023 00:07
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Arivia posted:With the caveat that I haven't looked too much at the extended materials, I think the four traditions framework is a good way to cut down on the complexity of different class spell lists and also, yes, set up building them differently. It enables fun stuff like divine sorcerers, and it also formalized occult magic as part of the basic building blocks of the setting, instead of making it a come-later with the Dark Archive and further books. Agreed! I'm still trying to wrap my head around occult magic, though. My understanding is that unlike arcane being a formalized kind of scientific tradition, occult is more based on strong emotion and superstition. Am I off base?
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Jul 19, 2023 00:11
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I haven't had to run them, so I only did a read-over, and haven't internalized them yet. they seem better, but dunno how it actually works at the table now. Especially since I haven't gone over any feats that were added wrt crafting.
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Jul 19, 2023 00:17
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Dexo posted:I haven't had to run them, so I only did a read-over, and haven't internalized them yet. they seem better, but dunno how it actually works at the table now. Especially since I haven't gone over any feats that were added wrt crafting. What don't you like about the existing crafting system? The Treasure Vault systems all basically make it more narratively engaging and complex, they don't take new feats or anything.
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Jul 19, 2023 00:21
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A Meatslab posted:Agreed! Occult is basically vibes-based magic, yeah. Having the Psychic and the Bard use the same list is superficially a bit odd (going against the traditional "psionics is its own thing" approach), but all the mind-related stuff makes sense for both. Things like Telekinetic Projectile do feel strange for a Bard, though.
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Jul 19, 2023 00:33
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Arivia posted:What don't you like about the existing crafting system? The Treasure Vault systems all basically make it more narratively engaging and complex, they don't take new feats or anything. I said I haven't had to run or internalized the new ones, so I dunno. they seem better but I haven't tried the new ones in play yet.
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Jul 19, 2023 00:48
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