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Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:I mean i kinda get why they did it because belgium but it's funny that they aren't lumped in with dutch and french respectively when all the other weird language cousins get shoved into their bigger groupings
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Jul 18, 2023 19:30
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Walloon is a separate near-dead langue ‘oïl, but then, they didn’t split out any other french minorities, not even the langues d’oc
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Jul 18, 2023 19:50
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One of the lesser known provisions of the treaty of london is that any map did not recognize both languages would require immediate declaration of war on the map maker by the british crown.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:09
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Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:I mean i kinda get why they did it because belgium but it's funny that they aren't lumped in with dutch and french respectively when all the other weird language cousins get shoved into their bigger groupings Correct, in a strict linguistic sense Flemish only refers to the dialects historically present in the western two provinces of modern-day Flanders. There's no such thing as a separate, standardized 'Flemish' language spoken across Flanders, at most it means the motley collection of Dutch dialects that happened to be spoken here when the border was first arbitrarily established in the sixteenth century. To be sure, after such a long time there are obviously certain words and expressions that are considered typically Flemish, but it's still historically and linguistically inaccurate to consider Flemish a language in its own right. Even politically there has never been any desire to break away from Dutch, as (regardless of ideology) everyone in the past understood that that would have been a bad idea in the face of immense sociological pressure from French.  Wallonia is an interesting case since Walloon actually was historically spoken across most of its modern territory, but even that was never absolute; there is a traditionally Picard-speaking area around the city of Mons in the far west. Of course it's all moot, since Standard French has completely supplanted both dialect groups by now.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:13
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What gets grouped with Dutch? I feel like Frisian and limburgish have always been recognized as their own thing. Edit: I wrote this before seeing the above post lol
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Jul 18, 2023 20:16
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Charoclere posted:I think my favourite Stalin apologia came from the tankie who once insisted to me that the Polish government evacuated Warsaw, therefore the Polish government abdicated, therefore the Polish state ceased to exist, therefore Poland was unoccupied space, therefore the USSR hadn't actually invaded anywhere at all. It’s the “Bismarck was scuttled, not sunk” line, but with the whole country of Poland.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:24
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Phlegmish posted:To be sure, after such a long time there are obviously certain words and expressions that are considered typically Flemish, but it's still historically and linguistically inaccurate to consider Flemish a language in its own right. This is a good post, and I just want to add that the thing about words and expressions of certain regions exist in pretty much all languages. I'm sure you can think of Texas phrases, Liverpool phrases and so forth, and even in Danish, as a Copenhagener, I would never refer to downtown as "midtbyen", which is very common in at least Jutland, possibly everywhere but Copenhagen.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:35
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The UK used to have loads of those all over the place, less so in the last century with the homogenising effect of media, but still some kicking about.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:38
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Starks posted:What gets grouped with Dutch? I feel like Frisian and limburgish have always been recognized as their own thing. The map I posted included Frisian for completion's sake, but you're absolutely right that it should be viewed as a separate language as it belongs to a wholly different branch of the West Germanic languages (being close to English). As for Limburgish, it is in fact considered to belong to the Low Franconian group, along with most of the other dialects in Flanders and the Netherlands:  Of course, you'll notice that Low Franconian historically extends into Germany, that there are also other dialect groups spoken in the Netherlands, and more generally that the border between the Netherlands and Germany used to be linguistically arbitrary. The current clear distinction between Dutch and German only arose after centuries of divergence and standardization.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:01
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Jul 18, 2023 21:21
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:"Why is Alabama so good?" being the top result for Alabama has to be the Governor just having his interns and staff google that phrase over and over all day. Could also be a bunch of country music likers
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Jul 18, 2023 21:21
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Interesting hoi4 peace deal.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:50
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Hearts of Akron
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Jul 18, 2023 21:53
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Spazzle posted:Stalin just didn't want miss out on investing in Eastern Poland. 
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Jul 18, 2023 22:45
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A research paper on overly-threatening map visualizations of immigration. https://www.sciencedirect.com/org/science/article/pii/S1745010122002569      And then some less-threatening maps.   
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Jul 19, 2023 04:08
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Octopus maps!
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Jul 19, 2023 04:44
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The Greeks heard that the Turks abused this guy's group and were nice just out of pure contrarianism. This is the pro way to navigate the Balkans as a refugee. Serbia: Get the gently caress out of my country. Refugee: Oh man, those Albanians were really mean to me. Serbia: Would you like to come over tonight for dinner? The wife is making something special. You guys like cigars?
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Jul 19, 2023 05:58
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SlothfulCobra posted:A research paper on overly-threatening map visualizations of immigration. Portugal não é um país europeu.
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Jul 19, 2023 08:30
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I like the idea that "not specified" means you just emerge from the sea like a deep one.
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Jul 19, 2023 08:38
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SlothfulCobra posted:A research paper on overly-threatening map visualizations of immigration. Dracula: Pages From a Virgin's Diary (2002, dir. Guy Maddin)  A Silent ballet adaptation of Dracula in which Dracula is played by an Asian actor and really leans into the "mysterious Eastern man taking our wimmen!" reading of the story. FreudianSlippers fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 10:41
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This is just a penis.
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Jul 19, 2023 11:30
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You need a doctor.
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Jul 19, 2023 11:43
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OwlFancier posted:I like the idea that "not specified" means you just emerge from the sea like a deep one.
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Jul 19, 2023 12:40
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FreudianSlippers posted:Dracula: Pages From a Virgin's Diary (2002, dir. Guy Maddin) drat that sounds pretentious as poo poo lol
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Jul 19, 2023 15:08
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Given the growing disparity between people able to afford a decent meal in Western and Southeastern Europe there might be a good practical case to lure people from the west and eat them.  
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Jul 19, 2023 15:22
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Armacham posted:drat that sounds pretentious as poo poo lol Oh no they made gothic romance pretentious 
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Jul 19, 2023 15:25
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Guavanaut posted:Given the growing disparity between people able to afford a decent meal in Western and Southeastern Europe there might be a good practical case to lure people from the west and eat them. What is their definition of a vegetarian equivalent? Beans? beyond meat?
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Jul 19, 2023 15:47
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It's a definition used in the severe material and social deprivation rate statistics, but they don't go much further than an implication of what you'd eat if you don't eat meat or fish. So like paneer or Luxembourgers.
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Jul 19, 2023 15:52
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Phlegmish posted:Correct, in a strict linguistic sense Flemish only refers to the dialects historically present in the western two provinces of modern-day Flanders. There's no such thing as a separate, standardized 'Flemish' language spoken across Flanders, at most it means the motley collection of Dutch dialects that happened to be spoken here when the border was first arbitrarily established in the sixteenth century. To be sure, after such a long time there are obviously certain words and expressions that are considered typically Flemish, but it's still historically and linguistically inaccurate to consider Flemish a language in its own right. Even politically there has never been any desire to break away from Dutch, as (regardless of ideology) everyone in the past understood that that would have been a bad idea in the face of immense sociological pressure from French. This is a good post, and I'd like to add that people who insist Flemish is a language are either uneducated about ^ or are Flemish nationalists with an axe to grind, never mind the facts. I should also add that when Belgium became independent, there was some initial debate among cultural and literary heavyweights in Flanders whether to follow Dutch as a standardised language or whether to develop an own Flemish standard language. The former group won out for the reasons Phlegmish has outlined in his post.
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Jul 19, 2023 16:02
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I actually wouldn't say it's particularly related to nationalism, as far as I know there are no organizations or prominent individuals within the Flemish Movement that promote the creation of Flemish as a separate language. I've basically never seen it come up in that context. Your comment about the uneducated is spot-on, though. It's semi-common to hear working-class people talk about how immigrants should 'speak Flemish' or whatever. But even then, it's just part of a specific colloquial speech pattern, and not indicative of any deep ideological conviction. Essentially, nearly everyone in Flanders who's ever given the matter any thought agrees that our language is Dutch. Given that fact, I've always marveled at how many foreigners are somehow convinced that we speak Flemish, even though all of the official sources mention Dutch exclusively. The map that was posted earlier is just one example. You don't see the same thing happening with e.g. Austrian. Why is that? I wonder if it's due to the influence of French. Francophones, especially within Belgium itself, had (and have) a habit of systematically referring to Belgian Dutch as flamand, reflecting a certain cultural attitude on their part. That might have seeped through into other languages.
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Jul 19, 2023 18:25
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Don't underestimate how often people believe that it's one country with one language, completely uniform throughout. Like, in Finnish, names for countries and their associated languages are the same word (so Tanska means both Danish and Denmark). It's one of those things that Just Make Sense, especially if you're from one of the cool countries that have an associated language (even if they also have minority languages). Also not really relevant, but the distinction between regional variation, dialect and language is super fuzzy. Less so in modern Europe because of nationalism, broadcasting and general mobility, but as a general rule. For example, I was once teaching a Danish class with two Indians (speaking some kind of Hindi) and a Nepalese guy. One Indian could easily understand both Nepali and the other Indian, but the Nepali guy and the second Indian couldn't understand each other at all. It was kinda neat honestly.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:37
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Press een for Belgian.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:13
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BonHair posted:Don't underestimate how often people believe that it's one country with one language, completely uniform throughout. Like, in Finnish, names for countries and their associated languages are the same word (so Tanska means both Danish and Denmark). It's one of those things that Just Make Sense, especially if you're from one of the cool countries that have an associated language (even if they also have minority languages). The linguistic situation on the Indian subcontinent is pretty interesting. I watched a video on the relationship between Hindi and Urdu a while back. They're extremely similar but use completely different writing systems, which raises the question of whether or not they should be considered separate languages. As you say, often there is no objective answer.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:16
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Phlegmish posted:The linguistic situation on the Indian subcontinent is pretty interesting. I watched a video on the relationship between Hindi and Urdu a while back. They're extremely similar but use completely different writing systems, which raises the question of whether or not they should be considered separate languages. As you say, often there is no objective answer. I also had a (second generation emigrant!) Pakistani co-worker (different job, dude was an economist) once, who gave zero shits about Urdu/Hindi/Punjabi being different languages and watched a ton of Bollywood films. Probably not the most complex dialogue, but still. The linguistic situation in India is super interesting, but also there's a lot of unfun nationalism going on trying to remove the interesting parts. I don't know much of the specifics, but I'm pretty sure it's not entirely unlike what the French have done.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:22
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BonHair posted:I also had a (second generation emigrant!) Pakistani co-worker (different job, dude was an economist) once, who gave zero shits about Urdu/Hindi/Punjabi being different languages and watched a ton of Bollywood films. Probably not the most complex dialogue, but still. India’s situation is vastly more divergent than some brother latin languages, we’re talking whole unrelated groups, eg hindi is closer to portuguese than to tamil. I don’t think you could do what France did
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Jul 19, 2023 20:27
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Unless "what France did" means "act very lovely to Muslims". BJP can do that one.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:32
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:India’s situation is vastly more divergent than some brother latin languages, we’re talking whole unrelated groups, eg hindi is closer to portuguese than to tamil. I don’t think you could do what France did Eh, you don't have to have related languages to exterminate them, just teach the speakers Hindi (to do anything official) and gently stop allowing minority languages in schools, public workplaces and so on. Think what the English did in Ireland, even if english and Irish Celtic are technically related. It's gonna take time and effort, but my impression is that the current Indian government is willing to put in the work.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:40
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It seems to me that Urdu and Hindi have a very Serbian-Croatian type of situation going on, with different writing systems but almost same grammar and similar vocabulary. And the pogroms, let us not forget about the pogroms. Also the probability of being stabbed if you say it’s the same language.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:45
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Phlegmish posted:It's semi-common to hear working-class people talk about how immigrants should 'speak Flemish' or whatever. The "This is America you need to speak American" of Europe. Guavanaut posted:Unless "what France did" means "act very lovely to Muslims". BJP can do that one. France is pretty good at that too but not quite BJP levels despite their best efforts. Madame Le Pen and Monsieur Zemmour are certainly willing to give it their best shot. BonHair posted:Eh, you don't have to have related languages to exterminate them, just teach the speakers Hindi (to do anything official) and gently stop allowing minority languages in schools, public workplaces and so on. Think what the English did in Ireland, even if english and Irish are technically related. Fixed a bit for you. Celtic is a language group and Irish is just one of them. There are two subgroups, the Goidelic languages, Irish, Scots Gaelic and Manx and the Brittonic languages, Welsh, Cornish and Breton. At least the ones that aren't entirely dead and I'm being extremely generous to Cornish and Manx with that. The languages in India are much more different than English and Irish. They're both part of the larger Indo-European family. The only languages in Europe that aren't are Basque (isolate) Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian and Samí (Uralic) and Maltese (Semitic). The Indian languages they're talking about are in completely different families, like Scots Gaelic and Arabic or Finnish and Berber. That said, Scandinavia sure has done a great job trying to suppress Samí and both the French and Spanish have done their damndest to kill Basque as well. They've done a lot of work but all this pesky nonsense about "human rights" and such took the bite out of it, although for many of their minority languages the damage is done and all they need is benign neglect to finish the job. India is less concerned with those things so I'm sure they could accomplish it, given the time.
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Jul 19, 2023 22:34
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Armacham posted:drat that sounds pretentious as poo poo lol It's Guy Maddin, buddy.
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Jul 19, 2023 22:51
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