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FilthyImp posted:Seems like a rather elegant way to show a fundamental disconnect between the parties yelling over each other here, no. do you actually think of posting here like a contracted agreement where you get paid honestly, is this how you perceive your existence on this website is this how the mods in question think, too? Might explain some poo poo.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:40
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heres some feedback for the feedback thread. why is genesplicer still a mod does gene even post anymore
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Jul 19, 2023 19:42
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People are now arguing about the literal meaning of a figurative statement that wasn't in any way ambiguous, even to the terminally tone deaf.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:42
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FilthyImp posted:VvV let's just agree to litigate the semantics of the argument instead of the exceedingly obvious intent. Maybe then someone will say something else and we can argue over that, having successfully obfuscated what was being discussed in the first place! I was just explaining what was happening. I understood the meaning of the post.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:43
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tiaz posted:One of SA's strengths has been its being relatively free with bans to communicate "actually, we don't do that here". Giving up moderation of bad behavior with "oh well what can u do lol" is the worst possible answer. We ban people for choosing the wrong thread tag, so I don't believe your hands are tied. I am speaking specifically of being a mod. If someone is personally abusing a moderator, as in following them forum to forum just to harass them, then they can go. But hey i hate your mod actions or hey you suck because you are a mod, who cares? Space Kablooey posted:I don't completely disagree with this, but if a mod doesn't see an issue (at all) with low level abuse thrown at them, then the same mod will probably not see a problem when users come forward expressing discomfort with these types of issues, and having a thick skin shouldn't be a requirement to post in the (supposedly) general forum. This is not true at all. Being abused about moderating is different than being abused about being a person. Those two issues are not the same at all.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:44
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I definitely think there should be a line between feedback and going full aggro just because you can. Maybe I missed some context in all of this but nothing the mods did in this whole saga seemed bad enough to kick up this much of a fuss about, and the one outright stupid thing done was apologized for. Maybe I missed it since I sure as hell am not reading a 70+ page thread to dig into it. Nothing that was done seemed to justify the reaction it got. The current set of mods have cleared the depressingly low bar of "Much better than most GBS mods, historically", and it's certainly better than it was a few years ago. I feel like if people weren't so aggro about perceived forum war poo poo, it'd be a lot easier to explain the specific issues you're having, and move on. I definitely agreed with a few of the things brought up, even if they weren't really GBS specific or whatever.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:44
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tiaz posted:One of SA's strengths has been its being relatively free with bans to communicate "actually, we don't do that here". Giving up moderation of bad behavior with "oh well what can u do lol" is the worst possible answer. We ban people for choosing the wrong thread tag, so I don't believe your hands are tied. There's any number of posters who simply take probes and bans as meaningless costs of business, and never try to be less awful. Again, for me, my frequently-mentioned and absolutely deserved ban for wishing death on a poster made me realize how stupid it was to get angry enough *ever* on a message board to stoop that low. Giving up UKMT and USPOL was a huge quality of life improvement - but I can see the posters who are still just continuously and eternally rageposting - several of whom finally earned lifetime permas for it. But the rage-fuelled refuse to see any issues with their posting and refuse to accept that mods have any right to interfere. Having admins that tolerate it just perpetuates destructive behaviour.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:46
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:heres some feedback for the feedback thread. why is genesplicer still a mod does gene even post anymore
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Jul 19, 2023 19:47
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:heres some feedback for the feedback thread. why is genesplicer still a mod does gene even post anymore Okay this legit just seems like calling for scalps for literally no reason though
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Jul 19, 2023 19:48
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Fluffdaddy posted:This is not true at all. Being abused about moderating is different than being abused about being a person. Those two issues are not the same at all. Not at all in my experience trying to fit in different groups during my life. The most toxic groups were the ones where the leadership had a "thick skin" (or so they claimed) and didn't see an issue when I felt uncomfortable, and even telling me to "get" a thick skin. Space Kablooey fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 19:50
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Fluffdaddy posted:I am speaking specifically of being a mod. If someone is personally abusing a moderator, as in following them forum to forum just to harass them, then they can go. But hey i hate your mod actions or hey you suck because you are a mod, who cares? I think people making complaints should be treated as adults and as such expected to express themselves in a civil and coherent manner as the absolute barest minimum, if they want them to be taken seriously, or acknowledged at all. Responding to insane frothing at the mouth aggro posting as legitimate is bad just from the point of view of encouraging that sort of thing further, even ignoring the question of wherever anybody should be obliged to deal with it from a purely human standpoint. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 19:52
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Toxic Mental posted:Okay this legit just seems like calling for scalps for literally no reason though ??? no its not lol a moderator should at the bare minimum regularly interact with the community they are supposed to be moderating and if genes too busy and old to be around the forum except to probe someone 2 weeks after they made the offending post maybe he can be demoted to regular user. losing buttons shouldnt be considered a punishment
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Jul 19, 2023 19:52
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a forum of adults who have been on the internet for decades should be able to go more than a week without some dumb drama is my feedback
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Jul 19, 2023 19:52
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:a manager cannot fire customers because customers are not employed by them It's a common figure of speech. https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=fire+your+customer
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Jul 19, 2023 19:53
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Toxic Mental posted:Okay this legit just seems like calling for scalps for literally no reason though There's already precedent set by admins this month alone that if a mod stops actually doing any moderating they shouldn't be in the position, so as to avoid situations where someone might reach out to them with a major issue and not get a response and things like that I don't think it's relevant to The Current Bullshit but it's not just thirsting for mod scalps or whatever. Gene doesn't post. There's nothing wrong with asking a question about that.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:53
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Toxic Mental posted:Okay this legit just seems like calling for scalps for literally no reason though I.e. Mods and Iks should freely be shuffled in order to provide better feedback, community growth, oversight, etc. There's an understanding that the Mod be active and, if anything should get in the way of being able to participate, should step back and allow the forums to quickly assign a replacement. Others might say that the position is earned and imparts some kind of import to that, and if they're not being actively bad then they keep the job until they voluntarily step down or are made to do so for reasons.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:53
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Deki posted:I definitely think there should be a line between feedback and going full aggro just because you can. There should be and is, most of the feedback in SAD is not actually abuse just real critical feedback from people who have repeatedly given very similar feedback and felt it wasn't actually heard. That does result in some of the language around moderating becoming more abusive over time as people vent in the threads they're waiting for mod response in but the vast majority of SAD posters will instantly put that aside if they get sincere replies. It's real important that all feedback from sad doesn't get handwaved into the abuse bucket, Rust posted some examples of language that they thought were actually abusive which seems fine but that can easily spread into being the common way of talking about it in the thread and that would be real bad. E: similarly anybody talking about bad faith actors should post quotes so that the people being labeled that can provide context if there is any, this wide-brush telephone crap is what makes everything escalate surc fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 19:55
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Gene posted in GBS 5 days ago. So the point is moot.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:55
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Fluffdaddy posted:Gene posted in GBS 5 days ago. So the point is moot. Gene does post
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Jul 19, 2023 19:55
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Fluffdaddy posted:I am speaking specifically of being a mod. If someone is personally abusing a moderator, as in following them forum to forum just to harass them, then they can go. But hey i hate your mod actions or hey you suck because you are a mod, who cares? I don't mean to say you should ban anyone who has a harsh word for a mod, but this thread and SAD are pretty clearly overrun by bad faith actors, and tolerance towards them is harmful imo. Deki posted:Maybe I missed some context in all of this but nothing the mods did in this whole saga seemed bad enough to kick up this much of a fuss about, and the one outright stupid thing done was apologized for. Maybe I missed it since I sure as hell am not reading a 70+ page thread to dig into it. steinrokkan posted:I think people making complaints should be treated as adults and as such expected to express themselves in a civil and coherent manner as the absolute barest minimum, if they want them to be taken seriously, or acknowledged at all. Panic! At The Tesco posted:a forum of adults who have been on the internet for decades should be able to go more than a week without some dumb drama is my feedback These. Every feedback thread is a nightmare and I don't think it has to be. Sorry for the big quote tree, I've probably said my piece with it though tiaz fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 19:55
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Fluffdaddy posted:This is not true at all. Being abused about moderating is different than being abused about being a person. Those two issues are not the same at all. I'm trying to say that whatever tolerances the people with the power to cultivate a community have, these tolerances will reflect on the community. In this example, if you required the mods that moderate GBS to have thick skin, then the community will be made of people with thick skin. I do agree that to be a mod you have to have enough presence of mind to not take some things personally, but "having a thick skin" is not good IMO. It's possible that we have different conceptions of having thick skin means, though.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:58
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:heres some feedback for the feedback thread. why is genesplicer still a mod does gene even post anymore this jira is technical debt and we don't have room for it in the sprint, we have to focus on bugs and features for now. put it in the backlog so we don't lose it. (also you don't have to ask us, you can click his name at the top and then click the find posts button)
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Jul 19, 2023 19:59
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genesplicer writing a post and tying it to a carrier pigeon hoping it makes it to its destination
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Jul 19, 2023 19:59
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tiaz posted:I don't mean to say you should ban anyone who has a harsh word for a mod, but this thread and SAD are pretty clearly overrun by bad faith actors, and tolerance towards them is harmful imo. Who are the bad faith actors? Genuinely, who are the bad faith actors? What is your line? Is this line shared by your moderators? Other posters in your threads? What criticism constitutes bad faith, for you all? What is the source of aggrievement? Gimme an example.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:00
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tiaz posted:I don't mean to say you should ban anyone who has a harsh word for a mod, but this thread and SAD are pretty clearly overrun by bad faith actors, and tolerance towards them is harmful imo. I think its whatever that you are assigning teams to posters. The problem is when moderators do it, and then use their buttons to emphasize right and wrongthink, it becomes a problem. Do you think I like a lot of the posters in SAD? Some of them I actively dislike. They look for any weakness in a post I make and start flailing their figurative arms around like morons. But who loving cares? IF they have a point, they have a point. If they don't, ignore them and move on. When you start assigning them teams or making a structure out of their personal grudges as a mod, you have lost the plot. You are no longer moderating as a neutral party but taking it personal. And that is when it is time to step down or take a long break.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:02
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Fluffdaddy posted:Gene posted in GBS 5 days ago. So the point is moot. I think stirring up poo poo with a false accusation really captures the essence of what many folks are finding annoying and tiresome
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Jul 19, 2023 20:03
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:genesplicer writing a post and tying it to a carrier pigeon hoping it makes it to its destination He's that Amish dude from the Slim Jim commercial who gets pictures of your mom in the mail. A relatively inactive mod - who doesn't post a lot or push buttons a lot, but still does from time to time - is probably less of an issue in a forum with a bunch of mods and IKs. It'd be more of an issue if it was a forum with only a couple button-pushers. Gene's fine as mod emeritus.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:04
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Flowers for QAnon posted:I think stirring up poo poo with a false accusation really captures the essence of what many folks are finding annoying and tiresome Just retort with facts and move on. Anything else posted about gene that has to do with him not posting will be ignored because its not true and I won't care about it anymore.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:04
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Fluffdaddy posted:I think its whatever that you are assigning teams to posters. The problem is when moderators do it, and then use their buttons to emphasize right and wrongthink, it becomes a problem. It's not about teams, though. It's about what culture you choose to encourage and reward in general.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:05
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steinrokkan posted:It's not about teams, though. It's about what culture you choose to encourage and reward in general. What culture? What is the GBS culture? What is the "SAD" culture? I don't want to speak in platitudes or nebulous observations, but stone cold facts and actionable items. What culture do I belong to? The other admins?
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Jul 19, 2023 20:07
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Who's acting in bad faith. Link a post.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:08
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Fluffdaddy posted:Just retort with facts and move on. Anything else posted about gene that has to do with him not posting will be ignored because its not true and I won't care about it anymore. This is what I mean. Why should shitstirring like that be permitted? Standards of behavior are under our control, and that behavior is actively detrimental to the community. I thought the analogies to banning customers who are abusive to staff were pretty apt.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:12
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Fluffdaddy posted:What culture? What is the GBS culture? What is the "SAD" culture? I don't want to speak in platitudes or nebulous observations, but stone cold facts and actionable items. I think there are two different groups of posters. Some think that word based moderation is stupid and deliberately post in ways that highlight the most ridiculous cases of moderating based on specific words. One very true argument from this group is that the people who moderate based on words are not moderating other things that serve the same purpose as the banned word. Others do not want to post in a place where certain words are allowed because they feel like it is exclusionary to people who might fight into a group covered by a prohibited word. There are a lot of people who don't want to post in the same place people are dropping slurs. This requires nuance and balance to manage because both groups are large.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:14
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the reason its so common is because historically stirring poo poo up and drawing attention to the problem is the only way to get anything resolved on the site after it has already been brought up multiple times a good example of this is the deviantart thread which had been complained about multiple times only for the mods to keep ignoring it and it wasnt gassed until multiple posters started trolling it and causing bloop to have a meltdown
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Jul 19, 2023 20:17
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Fluffdaddy posted:What culture? What is the GBS culture? What is the "SAD" culture? I don't want to speak in platitudes or nebulous observations, but stone cold facts and actionable items. What I'm saying, and what I think other posters itt have also expressed in their own words, is that when you choose to engage with the users who you acknowledged were looking for excuses to lash out, with the reasoning that a complaint is a complaint, no matter how it's expressed, it makes the place worse for everybody who isn't down with that kind of aggressive posting. I'm not saying that you are part of some culture / clique or whatever, just that your attitude of ostensibly ignoring the tone of messages has an effect on others, and in case of feedback threads here or in sad, it's not good and it forces everybody to wade through muck of heated interpersonal arguments. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 20:18
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tiaz posted:This is what I mean. Why should shitstirring like that be permitted? Standards of behavior are under our control, and that behavior is actively detrimental to the community. Where is the detriment? Being wrong, being told you are wrong with proof, and ignoring it is more than enough unless it gets personal. And sometimes, if the person won't shut up and move on you can just make fun of them.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:18
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surc posted:There should be and is, most of the feedback in SAD is not actually abuse just real critical feedback from people who have repeatedly given very similar feedback and felt it wasn't actually heard. That does result in some of the language around moderating becoming more abusive over time as people vent in the threads they're waiting for mod response in but the vast majority of SAD posters will instantly put that aside if they get sincere replies. It's real important that all feedback from sad doesn't get handwaved into the abuse bucket, Rust posted some examples of language that they thought were actually abusive which seems fine but that can easily spread into being the common way of talking about it in the thread and that would be real bad. I'm not talking about SAD? I'm talking about the posters who seemed to go full aggro from the get-go in these threads. Though I wouldn't say it's not a problem there, either. Lotta signal to noise issues there. Maybe it's the only way to get admins to look at it with ownership being pretty inactive, but its weird that a dumb reversed probe seems to get as much melodrama as, say the posts about weird RP creep who almost became an admin.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:19
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Also to be fair suggesting to remove an inactive mod is not a completely invalid proposition, there was actually a pretty recent removal of a moderator who did not interact with the community they were moderating, so bringing up a concern in the space specifically created to bring up those kinds of concerns isn't inherently bad, it was just wrong this time lol. "remove Gene, he doesn't post" got pretty sorted out with "he does post".
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Jul 19, 2023 20:20
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So should I assume the issue is that there actually aren't any examples bad faith actors posting here in this thread, and the aggrievement is because the perceived outsiders aren't showing sufficient deference and using customer service voices?
Psycho Landlord fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 20:20
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Word moderation = bad. Context moderation = good. Mistakes will happen, especially with all the nuance that lies in context, they should be owned and apologized for but also there should be some breathing room in this. I think there's been plenty of proof that a normal conversation about screw-ups is actually amazingly well received as long as it's a sincere effort to be better. Also everyone could do with being a bit less instantly hostile honestly, but I just like when people are having a good time together so maybe I'm wrong about that. Also I really like some of the threads suggested so far
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Jul 19, 2023 20:21
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