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Yeah, thirding the "don't do it at annual review" message. I'm sitting in a job where we were all promised annual reviews upon hiring to this small not-quite-a-startup consultancy, but they've failed to materialise in the 1-3 years that we've all been working here. Since I was hired on the pay for my field have left UK rates and approached parity with the rest of the world, so that basically means we've all found ourselves 50% underpaid basically overnight. Company is in the process of being told to pay us all better or cease existing.
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Jul 17, 2023 17:03
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Is that including holidays? Canada’s different but for us we have 25 PTO days plus seven holidays plus the week between Christmas and New Year off. I think it’s 20 PTO days for staff below manager. It was excluding holidays. Countering didn’t result in any kind of improvement to the financials but they gave me another week of vacation. So 20 days of PTO+ holidays and some floater days that aren’t contractually guaranteed but have been part of the comp for a while. Not ideal but matches what I already have so whatever. All told I’m increasing my base salary by 70k and getting an associate partner title (even if it’s a bit of title inflation and probably a lateral from where I’m at, I don’t care I’m still happy with the title). I’m pretty loving pumped. Never say the number first. Now to turn my brain off and forget about it until I’m ready to give notice.
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Jul 17, 2023 17:24
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Congrats. The title is important in this business. Money helps, too.
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Jul 17, 2023 17:57
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ARCDad posted:I did some research and found out that I am paid about 10 K under the average salary for someone in my position in my state and nationally with my experience. I want to bring this up to my boss but I’m not 100% sure how/when as I just got my 5% raise a few months ago. I'll reply with more of a 10,000 foot view of the info given through years of reading this thread - Negotiating is based on leverage. If you genuinely have no interest in leaving your current job, then you have none at all. Asking for a raise from a current employer is not really negotiating at all - it's begging for money. Your current company may prefer running itself into the ground than paying market wages at this time, unfortunately. Others have mentioned it, but asking for this cash comes at some risk. The further you are from the top of your company wages, the lesser the risk. I can't imagine you being marked for replacement by getting a salary bump that puts you in the middle of your department.
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Jul 17, 2023 18:01
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81sidewinder posted:Negotiating is based on leverage. If you genuinely have no interest in leaving your current job, then you have none at all. Asking for a raise from a current employer is not really negotiating at all - it's begging for money. This is pretty much true. I've posted it practically verbatim several times in this thread. A touch of nuance is worth adding: when you ask for a raise, you might not explicitly say so, but your employer will implicitly understand "...or I'll look elsewhere" to be appended to it. Which is why it's rational for them to regard you as a Flight Risk thenceforward and take steps to protect themselves from being caught out by your resignation. Which is a factor you should consider when deciding whether or when to ask for more money. It's generally not a good idea to do it if the implied BATNA of finding another job is a bluff. Another thing to consider is that if you ask for more money, they say no, and you don't resign, then even if they don't push you out the door later, they will assume forevermore that they own you. Also not a great place to be. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jul 17, 2023 |
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Jul 17, 2023 20:46
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I was referred to a position by a friend, then a recruiter replied saying:recruiter posted:Thanks for your application/submittal for Cybersecurity Engineer with xyz bank! In hopes of moving you forward in consideration for the role, I’d like to confirm what your salary target is so that we can determine if this job (at least initially) aligns with what you are seeking. How do I respond here? I do care about the person who doing the referral and not making em look bad, but uggghhh  tbh this already feels like a non transparent hiring process and it's not exactly a great first impression either
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Jul 18, 2023 17:27
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air- posted:I was referred to a position by a friend, then a recruiter replied saying: "I'm looking for market rates. I expect you calibrate salary bands regularly. Does your compensation plan include equity? Let me know when you're able to schedule the next call. My availability for the next two weeks follows: ..."
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Jul 18, 2023 17:33
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"While I don't share desired salary ranges, I can share that I have a record of being a high performing employee and would expect an above average compensation package. If interested please feel free to give me a call during XYZ days/hours." The expected value of the bonus is $0 unless your friend has information to assure you the targets are actually achievable. I would go back to him for more information on how good their compensation actually is. But my response to that email would be pretty curt. "I'm potentially interested in the position, but I'm not going to pin myself down on compensation before we've gotten to talk about the position in detail. I would be available to schedule a call at XYZ dates/times" and leave it at that. If it's a cheapskate company trolling for a sucker they'll probably sever immediately. But it could just be an HR drone doing what HR drones do. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 17:45
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"I don't have a salary target when I'm interviewing companies because my biggest concern is finding the right cultural fit."
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Jul 18, 2023 17:58
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leper khan posted:"I'm looking for market rates. I expect you calibrate salary bands regularly. Does your compensation plan include equity? A cyber security engineer is never getting equity at a bank. Eric the Mauve posted:The expected value of the bonus is $0 unless your friend has information to assure you the targets are actually achievable. I would go back to him for more information on how good their compensation actually is. But my response to that email would be pretty curt. "I'm potentially interested in the position, but I'm not going to pin myself down on compensation before we've gotten to talk about the position in detail. I would be available to schedule a call at XYZ dates/times" and leave it at that. If it's a cheapskate company trolling for a sucker they'll probably sever immediately. But it could just be an HR drone doing what HR drones do. I wouldn't be curt, but I'd say the same things. "I am looking for market rates but my salary needs will depend on benefits, team fit, position, etc". Ideally though, use your friend and try to narrow down their ranges. You have potential to anchor to a high but reasonable number using that inside information. That is better than not saying a number, but it requires you to have that inside information. If you can get it, use it.
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Jul 18, 2023 18:01
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I like Eric's response here. It's not rude nor unprofessional but it does also kinda throw that bullshit back in their face. If they get pissy about it or make it a requirement to move forward, then it's more of a red flag, and I'd say I expect above market rates and won't be discussing salary further until I know the extent of the total compensation package and receive an offer. I'm kinda split on anchoring high even if you have the salary info from your friend. If they are trying to be strict on their pay bands, it might knock you out of the process too early before the hiring manager has a chance or desire to push back on HR about bringing you in at that rate. Not at all saying it's the wrong move, just a consideration. Side note, don't lump all of us together with those recruiting Martians. While several of us HR people are raging alcoholics, those folks are a whole different mess of lovely. I've successfully pushed for pay transparency and increased comp for everyone at my last two companies, because it's ethically correct and also makes better business sense. Parallelwoody fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 18:10
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Eric the Mauve posted:The expected value of the bonus is $0 unless your friend has information to assure you the targets are actually achievable. I would go back to him for more information on how good their compensation actually is. But my response to that email would be pretty curt. Lockback posted:Ideally though, use your friend and try to narrow down their ranges. You have potential to anchor to a high but reasonable number using that inside information. That is better than not saying a number, but it requires you to have that inside information. If you can get it, use it. Agree on all that and I've reached out to my friend to at least get a ballpark range - ideal outcome is to anchor high, but I honestly have no qualms severing either cuz yeah, you can't redo a first impression
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Jul 18, 2023 18:12
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Parallelwoody posted:I like Eric's response here. It's not rude nor unprofessional but it does also kinda throw that bullshit back in their face. If they get pissy about it or make it a requirement to move forward, then it's more of a red flag, and I'd say I expect above market rates and won't be discussing salary further until I know the extent of the total compensation package and receive an offer. While you work in HR, I like to think you're one of the few, the proud, the HR people who aren't drones. But yeah valid point, there doesn't even have to be an HR drone behind this. It may just be a lovely recruiter doing what lovely recruiters do. But often in these cases the recruiters do this because they know the company is looking to pay below market and don't want to waste their time on candidates who know what they're worth. P.S. I usually don't advocate severing. It's better to clearly communicate that you know what you're worth and intend to get it, at which point the companies who aren't interested in paying what high performers cost will do the severing. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 18:13
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Parallelwoody posted:I'd say I expect above market rates and won't be discussing salary further until I know the extent of the total compensation package and receive an offer. If you get knocked out because you anchored high-but-within-pay-band you're going to get knocked out for saying "I want above market rates".
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Jul 18, 2023 18:19
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air- posted:I was referred to a position by a friend, then a recruiter replied saying: Turns out she sat right beside my friend, and on seeing her shocked expression at me hanging up before she further incriminate herself and the company he said "told you" and went back to work 
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Jul 18, 2023 19:24
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As someone who works in the IT security department of a large financial institution/bank you may be dodging a bullet. We haven’t hit target bonus in the time I’ve been here either. The bonus is way better than my last job, but we also have a 15% target and last 2 years have been around 13%. Not a big deal, I don’t count on it, but they do make it seem like a sure thing when you get hired and it’s not. I’ve had worse jobs, but the bullshit that comes with working at a bank is significant.
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Jul 19, 2023 01:51
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Thread success story time! Kind of! We got our flat mid-pandemic when London rents were wildly depressed by a tenth of the city loving off home to their parents. Landlord wanted to raise the rent by about 35%, we checked the market rate for similar properties in similar areas and countered at 15% increase, which he has accepted. Wouldn't have managed to do that without the thread's advice. Thanks goons!
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Jul 19, 2023 17:44
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Update: the recruiter replied with a range and I guess onward to the interview process
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Jul 19, 2023 20:49
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lol I love it! Recruiter: we don't share ranges, how much money do you want Candidate: yeahno not gonna do that. range or gtfo Recruiter: ok here's the range
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Jul 19, 2023 22:07
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Some stories that really help illustrate the principle of why it's not good to say number first unless you know your value It's easy to underprice your product (2009) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36776939
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Jul 19, 2023 23:13
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Eric the Mauve posted:There's nothing wrong with just saying "Thank you for the offer but we're so far apart I feel it would be unproductive to continue. All the best of luck filling the position (you're going to need it)" Call back to this since I may have to play this card. Just got an offer. Technically more money than I make now, if you ignore the ~30% COL difference. Functionally would be a drop of around 15%, on top of ripping my life up to move. The title isn't even an improvement (although the actual job description is equivalent to the next step up where I am now). Oh and it's also an increase in days-in-office for me. So even just the minimum of what I'd expect to say yes to is basically guaranteed to be outside of their range, let alone a number that Id be comfortable negotiating down from.
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Jul 20, 2023 19:58
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Personally I'd still practice and counter and just see what happens. Maybe they move your title up, maybe they decide they like you enough to not require the relo, who knows? You already did the hard part and you have them in the best position. Sure, 80% chance it goes nowhere, but you spent all this time, whats spending time on a few emails and maybe a couple calls? If nothing else negotiating and walking away is better practice than just walking away.
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Jul 20, 2023 21:21
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That's not a bad point, especially since this is not an area of experience for me. Im having a lot of trouble even thinking about how to approach it given how one-sided it is. But that just proves your point I think - I could use the practice.
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Jul 21, 2023 00:10
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I'd probably say the offer is lower than you expected especially given the higher responsibility. You'd be willing to take XX and think the next level may be appropriate.
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Jul 21, 2023 00:23
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Yeah I would just shoot for the moon. Introspect, figure out how much money you would need for this to actually feel like a win and have you excited to move to another city, and ask for 30% more than that and see what happens.
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Jul 21, 2023 00:48
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Jenkl posted:That's not a bad point, especially since this is not an area of experience for me. One useful metaphor: You're playing poker, but the only bets you can lose are a potential employer's attention. Right now you've got the attention, but don't want the job, you can: - Continue playing hands with a bankroll that you presently value at $0. - Let the convo go cold and do nothing to improve yourself and your game with a free bankroll that has no value for you. Play the hands out and get practiced at asking for big stuff.
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Jul 21, 2023 02:53
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Eric the Mauve posted:The Negotiation Thread: range or gtfo
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Jul 21, 2023 06:01
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Had two recruiters reach out to me last week; I did better with the first than the second (I think?) For the first one, I managed to coax the range out of him and while the upper end is only 11% higher than what I make now, I responded with "I think there is probably room to find something mutually agreeable at the upper end of the range" figuring that if everything goes well and they really like me, I can see what options are available at that time once I know the full compensation package. During the second one, he managed to coax a number out of me; I tossed out a number about 24% higher than my current salary and he was like "Uh is that base or total comp, base + bonus?" and I said I was flexible on that depending on the bonus structure, etc. He came back the next day and said that number scared the company off. He then went on in a confidential tone about what they're looking for and what they're willing to pay may not exist. But he might have been bullshitting me too for all I know. Whatever, zero emotional reaction from me - which was funny because he was trying to make me feel better about it and I was just like "eh, lemme know if something that might be a better fit comes along, have a good weekend". In the meantime, someone at my current employer reached out to me to gauge interest in a lateral move that would have me go from a Tier 1 city to gently caress Nowhere, Flyover. "But, relocation isn't offered and the expectation is that the role is on-site . . . ". I'm very proud of myself for not laughing out loud on the call.
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Jul 21, 2023 07:33
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I work in an organisation that pays quite significantly different amounts in different countries. Which is fine, everyone knows the rules. About a month ago I had this conversation. HR: Hey, would you be happy to move to country X (40% pay cut after tax)? Your team mostly work there so it would be really convenient. Me: Hey! No. Thanks! HR: Why not? Me: I don’t have to give a reason. The answer is no. HR: OK. So that’s a maybe? Me: It’s a no. HR: OK. Me: When I joined I was actually partly induced to sign by the promise that you would move me to country Y (25% pay raise after tax). HR: So you want to move to Y? Me: Nope. I like being here and my family is here and it will be a massive pain to move anywhere else. But if you insist on me moving there you have to pay me the uplift. HR: OK. It struck me as a very pointless conversation. But why on earth would HR think it was a good idea to float a move I was obviously going to say no to? There’s no business pressure to move and I would have to have been an idiot to agree.
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Jul 21, 2023 14:15
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Bringing up the move to country Y seems like it was pointless why did you do that
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Jul 21, 2023 14:32
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To throw out a "You said you'd pay me more" just to scare HR off for another few weeks?
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Jul 21, 2023 21:29
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The business does still want me to move to country Y at some point. I’m not keen and I don’t want HR claiming that I requested the move. E: I mentioned it at all because of the sheer absurdity of having the same individual in HR trying to induce me to join one day by waving the comp uplift for country Y and then turning around the moment I’m through the door and Just Asking Questions about how I would feel about relocating to country X. It doesn’t seem to be a real request and has now disappeared, but it was an odd conversation. Beefeater1980 fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Jul 22, 2023 |
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Jul 22, 2023 01:03
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A draft: Hello [HR PERSON], Ive reviewed your tentative offer and am excited at the prospect of working with [COMPANY], but feel we have some ground to cover to find an agreeable compensation package. A base salary of [OFFER * 1.40] would appropriately reflect the increase in responsibilities, number of days required in office, and higher cost of living. Further, I would request a title that reflects the level of responsibility, e.g. [TITLE I WANT]. Thank you for your time, Jenkl
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Jul 22, 2023 15:33
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Jenkl variation posted:Hello [HR PERSON], I’d probably go with something slightly less apologetic like this and not give them any extra ammunition.
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Jul 22, 2023 15:55
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That wouldn't be ammunition and HR laps up stuff like that. Remember, you have to work there for potentially years. Keeping a sunny, positive disposition is a really good idea.
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Jul 22, 2023 17:02
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I agree with Lockback. The original looks good. Always nice to attach pleasantries to significant demands. "...feel we have some ground to cover to find an agreeable compensation package" in particular is a nice tough-on-the-problem, soft-on-the-people approach.
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Jul 24, 2023 19:57
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I have been interviewing for a new job at my current company. It's a promotion in level and will be heading up a new clinical development team. I've been selected for the position and the recruiter has shared the offer. It is not a huge jump in salary, 10% over my current base. Bonus increases from 23% to 25%, and stock grant increases by 60%, vesting over 4 years as usual. I'm already well compensated and my organisation (for my reports at least) tends to ensure pay is fair across people at the same level. More money really just means more retirement savings. Clearly I have no real BATNA apart from refusing the promotion or leaving or something. What's the play here? "I'm happy to accept for a salary of [115%]"?
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Jul 25, 2023 14:42
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knox_harrington posted:I have been interviewing for a new job at my current company. It's a promotion in level and will be heading up a new clinical development team. If you want more money, wait a year or two then find another role at the same level.
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Jul 25, 2023 14:48
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knox_harrington posted:I have been interviewing for a new job at my current company. It's a promotion in level and will be heading up a new clinical development team. Yep, a counter is the next step. 15% of my bare minimum if EVERYTHING is equal, so if you like your current job I'd want more than 15%. I don't quite parse how much more the stock is, but that does help. I'd probably counter more like 125% of your current salary.
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Jul 25, 2023 15:15
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Lockback posted:Yep, a counter is the next step. 15% of my bare minimum if EVERYTHING is equal, so if you like your current job I'd want more than 15%. I don't quite parse how much more the stock is, but that does help. I'd probably counter more like 125% of your current salary. This is an internal transfer / promotion that they applied for and want. I don't think any attempt will succeed, but you can certainly attempt. I would be modest with my attempt.
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