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Cythereal posted:Check my post above the one you're quoting. At least two fully laden IL-76s were confirmed shot down by US intelligence aircraft. I don't see any link to the US confirming anything in that post, and it doesn't mention US intel aircraft at all? I see a writer saying that two anonymous US officials said something happened. On 25 Feb, a date that had a LOT of early/bad reporting of things that did or did not happen from unnamed sources. Maybe it happened, but I'd be more interested in seeing whether or not the US made that claim in any kind of attributable way. Sometimes officials talk quietly to the press with incomplete or no understanding of what occurred. Russia losing IL-76s in general over the course of the war is plausible enough, but the story of "we shot down a bunch of VDV in their airplanes before they could jump, but we can't talk about it, except anonymously and with no locations or details and no physical evidence" is just a bit much for me to bite on without the DOD or someone attributing the comments.
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Jul 19, 2023 14:51
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The story I heard was that they failed to account for wind, which carried all the paratroopers into the cold sea rather than on to land.
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Jul 19, 2023 14:52
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It does seems suspect that Russia drove (or air assaulted) all their VDV into battle with plenty of photo and video evidence, except for the times the VDV were airdropped, which resulted in 100% catastrophic loss of all VDV forces, of which there is zero video or photo evidence. Followup from Rob Lee after he reported two months prior that unnamed US officials claimed 2x IL-76s were shot down: https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1510666774391529474?s=20
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Jul 19, 2023 14:56
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Aircraft losses or not, apparently the VDV have suffered such high casualty rates that they were combat ineffective and had to be staffed up with mobiks.
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Jul 19, 2023 14:58
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Yeah, the VDV have borne a horrific cost in lives and equipment.
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Jul 19, 2023 14:59
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orange juche posted:I want to say the VDV dropped in the drink was because they were coming in towards Odessa from the black sea and were engaged by AAA and painted by SAMs and the pilots panicked and hit the green light too early. Only sourcing for it was a Visegrad24 tweet, but its still on brand for the VDV both of these remain exceptionally uncomfirmed mlmp08 posted:I don't see any link to the US confirming anything in that post, and it doesn't mention US intel aircraft at all? I see a writer saying that two anonymous US officials said something happened. On 25 Feb, a date that had a LOT of early/bad reporting of things that did or did not happen from unnamed sources. Yeah there's basically two options 1) it was some critical day 1/2 messaging effort (which, regardless of 2, it was) and/or 2) ukraine was shooting decoys or otherwise non-genuine radar signatures (the full scope of Russia's use of which we did not learn about until quite a bit later) or it's possible it was totally made up out of whole cloth. Most significantly, neither of those claims were ever heard from again, no family members of the deceased ever popped up, and zero wreckage was ever identified. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 15:03
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Weren't the troops that made it to the airport getting mulched up pretty hard by defenses already in place because they expected open arms and liberated hugs while their bribed officials cleared the way for a victory parade, not an actual fight? I was never airborne so maybe I'm wrong but isn't the point of that to be able to drop somewhere there are *not* defenses and start setting up there? The idea of jumping straight in to active defenses targeting you the whole way down just sounds like suicide with extra steps.
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Jul 19, 2023 15:18
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bird food bathtub posted:Weren't the troops that made it to the airport getting mulched up pretty hard by defenses already in place because they expected open arms and liberated hugs while their bribed officials cleared the way for a victory parade, not an actual fight? I was never airborne so maybe I'm wrong but isn't the point of that to be able to drop somewhere there are *not* defenses and start setting up there? The idea of jumping straight in to active defenses targeting you the whole way down just sounds like suicide with extra steps. There was a period where the only resistance after landing were some cops who ran off, but then Ukraine relaid some artillery and mobilized some infantry and Hostomel became untenable within a few weeks.
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Jul 19, 2023 15:21
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bird food bathtub posted:Weren't the troops that made it to the airport getting mulched up pretty hard by defenses already in place because they expected open arms and liberated hugs while their bribed officials cleared the way for a victory parade, not an actual fight? I was never airborne so maybe I'm wrong but isn't the point of that to be able to drop somewhere there are *not* defenses and start setting up there? The idea of jumping straight in to active defenses targeting you the whole way down just sounds like suicide with extra steps. no the vdv at gostomel absolutely showed up expecting a fight, you're thinking of the truck of OMON guys or other units finding parade uniforms. mlmp08 posted:There was a period where the only resistance after landing were some cops who ran off, but then Ukraine relaid some artillery and mobilized some infantry and Hostomel became untenable within a few weeks. Ukraine destroyed the initial force that attacked the airport within the first day, but the main Russian push ended up recapturing it the next day. according to john spencer in https://mwi.westpoint.edu/the-2022-battle-of-kyiv-a-lecture/, they wiped out the initial Russian force within an hour (iirc) of the arrival of the Russian mechanized force that was meant to link up with them. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 15:23
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bird food bathtub posted:Weren't the troops that made it to the airport getting mulched up pretty hard by defenses already in place because they expected open arms and liberated hugs while their bribed officials cleared the way for a victory parade, not an actual fight? I was never airborne so maybe I'm wrong but isn't the point of that to be able to drop somewhere there are *not* defenses and start setting up there? The idea of jumping straight in to active defenses targeting you the whole way down just sounds like suicide with extra steps. The point of a Vertical Joint Forceable Entry (aka Airborne assault) is to seize critical terrain inaccessible due to the current lines and allow for establishing supply lines and greater forces to open up a front behind the adversary or rapidly reinforce a position. So in a perfect world, it's a non-contested landing, but the things worth jumping into are usually worth it for the enemy to defend because it's useful to them. There's a rather complex JFE concept of doing pre-assault fires to take out the most hostile stuff, then insert heavy drop equipment and paratroopers, seize the key terrain, establish a perimeter inspect/repair the airfield, and then as quickly as possible land reinforcements and heavier equipment. The last real vertical JFEs were Grenada, Panama, and Hadifa Dam in Iraq. All of those were contested landings. You could argue the 173rd jump into northern Iraq was one, but that was a secured airfield and more of a show of force/military deception to try and tie up Iraq forces. Dudes who I've chatted with who took part in that would talk about how locals were going around for a few days taking parachutes... So their biggest threat was the poor dude who signed for all those chutes having a massive FLPL to deal with.
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Jul 19, 2023 15:58
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PurpleXVI posted:Was that one actually confirmed by any sources? It felt like it was one of the more hilarious, but also more dubious, stories of the early invasion. More scrap for Ukraine to chop up and export in the coming years, keep it coming.
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Jul 19, 2023 16:07
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PurpleXVI posted:The story I heard was that they failed to account for wind, which carried all the paratroopers into the cold sea rather than on to land. Getting real Abe Simpson, "and that's how I won the iron cross" vibes.
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Jul 19, 2023 16:57
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https://twitter.com/KyivPost/status/1681689776632545280 I almost feel like attacking other countries' cargo shipping has turned out to be an important turning point in a major war before. But I can't quite pin it down.
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Jul 19, 2023 17:05
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I don't think this declaration has a long shelf life
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Jul 19, 2023 17:06
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How much does it cost to register under a Chinese flag?
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Jul 19, 2023 17:07
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Didn’t they already shoot at a Japanese ship?
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Jul 19, 2023 17:09
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They blew up a Turkish one
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Jul 19, 2023 17:10
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PurpleXVI posted:https://twitter.com/KyivPost/status/1681689776632545280 This isn't a new threat, they made this one previously and even attacked a couple near the beginning of the war. Lets see if they have the balls to back it up.
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Jul 19, 2023 17:13
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Well, continuing to destroy grain export infrastructure of Ukraine, which they did a bunch of damage to overnight is likely to be an easier route. Especially since it apparently garnered even less response than the usual warcriming.
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Jul 19, 2023 17:21
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But wait I thought this wasn’t a war Russia?
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Jul 19, 2023 17:32
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Panama's about to get nuked into the stone age.SerthVarnee posted:How much does it cost to register under a Chinese flag? There's a Hong Kong flagged ship docked in Odessa right now.
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Jul 19, 2023 17:36
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Crab Dad posted:But wait I thought this wasn’t a war Russia? But though this isn't really war they're shooting fifty missiles more to save Ukraine from the Ukrainese...
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Jul 19, 2023 17:49
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BaconAndBullets posted:Idk about the Russians, but American Airborne elements are briefed on and practice emergency bailout procedures. If the pilots think imminent loss of the aircraft is occuring, they signal for an emergency bailout and it ends up being a mad dash for the door. The Jumpmaster commands are extremely truncated to just stand-up, hook-up, and Go. Further truncated to 'Get your motherfucking rear end out that door!" if the plane is on fire. At least that was how I was taught when I was getting certified as a Jumpmaster.
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Jul 19, 2023 17:59
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Further truncated to 'Get your motherfucking rear end out that door!" if the plane is on fire. At least that was how I was taught when I was getting certified as a Jumpmaster. Yeah if the plane's on fire get the gently caress out even if you can't hook up on time, you can always pop the reserve. I might be misremembering but I thought fire was the one time the jump master will go out first and just because he's already next to the door. I feel like I vaguely remember an instruction along the lines of "if you see me jumping out of the plane without you GTFO immediately". Basically the whole "if you see EOD running, run the same direction" line.
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Jul 19, 2023 18:50
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We were told the bird was more important, and they could fly better without us. You do prioritize aircraft in that situation. I'm kidding- the actual doctrinal reason is it's better to mitigate losses and maximize the outcome- better to have half an Infantry BN rampaging and foraging in enemy territory than to lose them all and the airframe. Or at least that's what we were told. That, and to hopefully have some survivors. We used to cover that drill verbally before every jump as a part of a standard pre-jump, and it was a real concern when the plan was to throw us out over Saddam International Airport. E- unplanned exit and chute deployment in the aircraft were always my two biggest concerns on any jump.
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Jul 19, 2023 18:54
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I imagine there are scenarios (heavy icing, or engine-out situations) where lightening the plane by jettisoning several tons of paratrooper might help the pilots avoid crashing in the first place.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:11
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Cowardquote:Putin will not attend Brics summit - South African presidency https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-66247067
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Jul 19, 2023 19:29
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bulletsponge13 posted:We were told the bird was more important, and they could fly better without us. You do prioritize aircraft in that situation. Yeah it's just I'm old and I can't remember all of prejump anymore. Early deployment sounds scary as gently caress, although I never saw one. I was always more worried about the cleanly exiting the aircraft part than I was about the hitting the ground part. With the forces in play it takes the smallest thing going wrong to cause incredibly gruesome injuries. I had a jumpmaster tell us during the relevant part of prejump about how he had a guy throw his static line instead of hand it off, and it tangled on the arm of the next jumper reaching and basically stripped his bicep off. Edit: that and being dragged by the chute after landing, I heard some horror stories there. It happened to me for a very short distance to no ill effect other than knowing I never want to do that again (like 5-10', it's one of those things where I'm sure it was shorter than it felt). Jarmak fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 20:04
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https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1681683779054714881 So Russia is claiming any ship sailing to Ukraine in the Black Sea is now automatically a legitimate target.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:18
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no injury I have ever sustained myself hurt half as much as looking at a CT scan of someone else's jump-related compound pubic arch fracture the sacrum was in too many pieces to count shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 20:21
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BaconAndBullets posted:Idk about the Russians, but American Airborne elements are briefed on and practice emergency bailout procedures. If the pilots think imminent loss of the aircraft is occuring, they signal for an emergency bailout and it ends up being a mad dash for the door. The Jumpmaster commands are extremely truncated to just stand-up, hook-up, and Go. i have some vague recollection that russians had problems with gps/glonass at the start of invasion because of their own ew systems
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Jul 19, 2023 21:04
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Jarmak posted:Yeah if the plane's on fire get the gently caress out even if you can't hook up on time, you can always pop the reserve. There isn't a way to deploy the main manually, just the reserve?
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Jul 19, 2023 21:44
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The worst injuries in the Airborne are nearly always static line related. I think it was around 03/04, some dude at Bragg got his arm basically degloved from bicep to wrist. In Airborne school, they shared an anecdote that someone once had their entire arm pulled off, and was dead before landing. Landing injuries are fairly predictable, and not as scary. Robert Facepalmer posted:There isn't a way to deploy the main manually, just the reserve? Nope! Just the reserve. The main is pulled by the static line (a tether hooked to the aircraft); this requires approx 22 feet of length to deploy the main.
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Jul 19, 2023 21:58
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Robert Facepalmer posted:There isn't a way to deploy the main manually, just the reserve? No, the main gets pulled open by the line that stays attached to the aircraft static line when you jump out the door. No way to do that manually and it's designed to be pulled open very violently so it immediately catches air. The reserve is spring loaded and kept under tension to accomplish the same. Keep in mind static line jumps are done very low to the ground compared to free fall. We trained 800-1000 ft IIRC, and I was always told you would go lower on an actual combat drop. There is very little time to deploy the chute and arrest the fall. One of the stressful things about jumping is having your chute open with a minor malfunction and having to quickly decide whether you can correct it, land safely with it, or pull the reserve.
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Jul 19, 2023 22:00
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Everyone in the army knows that if your main don't open wide, you've got a reeeserve by your side. This fact gets drilled into your skull every time you move faster than a brisk walk.
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Jul 19, 2023 22:02
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bulletsponge13 posted:The worst injuries in the Airborne are nearly always static line related. I think it was around 03/04, some dude at Bragg got his arm basically degloved from bicep to wrist. In Airborne school, they shared an anecdote that someone once had their entire arm pulled off, and was dead before landing. ...A Russian pilot just died a few days ago after drowning after getting tangled in his chute (while a whole bunch of Russian citizens were relaxing on the beach nearby). Of course, pilots probably don't train that part that much...
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Jul 19, 2023 22:21
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OddObserver posted:...A Russian pilot just died a few days ago after drowning after getting tangled in his chute (while a whole bunch of Russian citizens were relaxing on the beach nearby). Of course, pilots probably don't train that part that much... Neither do Paratroopers. We all get briefed on actions, but very few get any practical experience. Not many dudes get water jumps, and they are nearly always "Hollywood"- no equipment, modified uniform. Even training for it is dangerous, and requires experienced swimmers with knives. Besides the obvious drowning danger for bad swimmers, you have the tangle hazard, and scariest of all- wet nylon. If you don't create an air pocket for your face, the nylon canapy sits like soup skin on the surface. In a panic, you come up, and try to gulp air only to find you are being suffocated. I watched a few guys learn their mortality during that exercise.
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Jul 19, 2023 22:38
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Sounds like coming up under a sail during a capsize, which i can attest is a terrifying experience.
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Jul 19, 2023 22:49
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Jarmak posted:Yeah it's just I'm old and I can't remember all of prejump anymore. I know somebody personally that got the Popeye muscle. He ended up managing to get it reattached; it was minor (HAH!), not the full wrap, but he was medicalled out anyway. Parachuting is so loving sketch and there are so many creative ways to get hosed up with it. Military airborne is actually some of the most carefully trained and monitored because Jumpmaster School makes you absolutely laser-focused on equipment checks and procedure.
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Jul 19, 2023 22:52
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Surfacing under the raft in whitewater after we all got ejected was bad enough. I think I'd poo poo myself to death if I did one of those helicopter water escape drills.
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Jul 19, 2023 22:53
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