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Judgy Fucker posted:Then why is “tankie” used as a pro-Russia pejorative in 2023 when the USSR hasn’t been around in 32 years? It’s not, it’s used specifically when people calling themselves leftists make every excuse for Vova because USA bad. Nobody thinks Viktor Orban is a tankie.
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Jul 20, 2023 15:58
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Professor Beetus posted:The definition you pulled also explicitly stated that red-baiting is specifically about Communism, so do you just going to pick and choose what parts of the definition are important in this context? I think I've already explained my own rationale, but here it is in sum: "tankie" is a pejorative that is still used today despite the origins of the term not really applying anymore, so I don't see why "red baiting" wouldn't be the same. You make a good point about me picking and choosing my own parts of the definition, but I still fail to see why one is still appropriate and the other not. Obviously others don't, which is fine, so long as I'm not being accused of Putin apologia or genocidal sympathies for having the audacity to try and debate and discuss something in Debate and Discussion.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:00
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Judgy Fucker posted:Then why is “tankie” used as a pro-Russia pejorative in 2023 when the USSR hasn’t been around in 32 years? Joke answer would be "because they're the only ones that haven't gotten the memo" but a more serious one is that while "tankie" is used more consistently than most political pejoratives (see "socialist" and "liberal") it no longer is specific to communism than it is specific to Prague. It turns out political terms outlive their actual origins, like "right" and "left" no longer describing seating arrangements of a literal legislative chamber. When someone uses the word "tankie" today it's still about the core of what iit meant when in 1956 though: they're calling someone a self--described leftist who always has some room in their heart for awful authoritarian stuff with thin to no veneer of actual leftist values, so long as it's in opposition to the libs/western order. And it's not like it's some purely post-Soviet corruption of the idea. Through most of the cold war actual capitalism vs communism had relatively little to do with the US/Soviet rivalry. Though it was obviously less vestigal than, like, modern China being a nakedly capitalist ethnostate that calls its ruling party "communist" for historical reasons, it was still just a conflict of two rival imperial powers with different political systems and flavors of empire. Edit: in light of that calling it "red baiting" isn't entirely unfair: both mainstream westerners and Russian nationalists generally acknowledge that the Soviet Union can be more accurately described as the most powerful dynasty of the Russian Empire than it can as an actual communist state. No reason to begrudge others joining the party late. Killer robot fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Jul 20, 2023 |
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Jul 20, 2023 16:01
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Judgy Fucker posted:I think I've already explained my own rationale, but here it is in sum: "tankie" is a pejorative that is still used today despite the origins of the term not really applying anymore, so I don't see why "red baiting" wouldn't be the same. You make a good point about me picking and choosing my own parts of the definition, but I still fail to see why one is still appropriate and the other not. Obviously others don't, which is fine, so long as I'm not being accused of Putin apologia or genocidal sympathies for having the audacity to try and debate and discuss something in Debate and Discussion. I think it is a fair term to use when someone like the poster above is just like "oh so you love Putin and want to marry him?" Like that's red baiting. But the RFK thing doesn't seem on the same level.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:02
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After consideration & reflection from reading your comprehensive feedback on my original post, I have edited out the redbaiting comments that I made within it. Thank you for the corrections of my faulty assumptions about redbaiting.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:04
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Judgy Fucker posted:I think I've already explained my own rationale, but here it is in sum: "tankie" is a pejorative that is still used today despite the origins of the term not really applying anymore, so I don't see why "red baiting" wouldn't be the same. You make a good point about me picking and choosing my own parts of the definition, but I still fail to see why one is still appropriate and the other not. Obviously others don't, which is fine, so long as I'm not being accused of Putin apologia or genocidal sympathies for having the audacity to try and debate and discuss something in Debate and Discussion. Tankie is still used as a pejorative because people on the left still wax nostalgic about gulags and revolution and reminisce about a long dead Soviet Union. Some people may use the term incorrectly, but it's the people who favorably equate Russia with the Soviet Union who invited the use of the term. e: also is tankie even used that much outside of the terminally online left? It's a word I have encountered approximately zero times in mainstream political journalism or from major political commentators, and the most I have seen the word is right here on the SA forums or broke brain leftist Twitter. Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Jul 20, 2023 |
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Jul 20, 2023 16:06
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Judgy Fucker posted:"tankie" is a pejorative that is still used today despite the origins of the term not really applying anymore, so I don't see why "red baiting" wouldn't be the same. Because the expanded use of "tankie" typically still keeps to the theme of "person whose vaguely leftist political analysis is US bad, countries with historic or present connections to communism good", but your expansion of red baiting has nothing to do with communism. RFK didn't justify his support for Russia in the lens of "anti-imperialist struggle" and the quoted article didn't connect RFK or Russia to communism, so it doesn't seem relevant to bring up red baiting.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:10
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I am willing to concede the point on "red baiting," thank you to the posters who engaged earnestly and didn't insinuate I want to kiss Putin on the lips.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:13
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Professor Beetus posted:Tankie is still used as a pejorative because people on the left still wax nostalgic about gulags and revolution and reminisce about a long dead Soviet Union. Some people may use the term incorrectly, but it's the people who favorably equate Russia with the Soviet Union who invited the use of the term. Honestly, most of the time I run into it it's goons complaining about people who use it, or equating those people with that one perma banned guy in the old "lol tankies" thread.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:13
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I don’t think it can be “red baiting” or any other kind of dishonest rhetoric to say “this guy who is uncritically espousing the same arguments for Russia’s invasion that the Kremlin is is aligning himself with Russia. I’m also a bit perplexed as to why anybody was offended by a (clearly documentable) linking of a ludicrously privileged boomer rear end in a top hat who has devoted his golden years to making people less healthy with an authoritarian oligarchy with imperialist military ambitions. Whose honor are we defending here, exactly? Anyway seems like nobody really disagrees that “red baiting” as commonly understood wasn’t the right term anymore; good job USCE. 
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Jul 20, 2023 16:15
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To be honest I don't think there are a lot of people outside of this subforum, or the other one that rhymes with ham, that still use or care about either term.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:15
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I still see "tankie" used for "people who like authoritarianism with a sprinkle of leftist ideology on top" other places online, but haven't seen "red-baiting" outside of historical useages for A While.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:21
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Blue Footed Booby posted:Honestly, most of the time I run into it it's goons complaining about people who use it, or equating those people with that one perma banned guy in the old "lol tankies" thread. Up until last year most of the complaints I saw about the term were "How do they know that word, who taught the libs that word?" even when the person who used it was an anarchist or something. Rather than actually calling it inaccurate.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:24
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Judgy Fucker posted:Then why is “tankie” used as a pro-Russia pejorative in 2023 when the USSR hasn’t been around in 32 years? "Tankie" doesn't mean someone who loves Communism. It derives from people who loved that the SU used tanks to invade and put down an uprising in Hungary. It's a pro-imperialist, not a pro-communist.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:25
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Twincityhacker posted:I still see "tankie" used for "people who like authoritarianism with a sprinkle of leftist ideology on top" other places online, but haven't seen "red-baiting" outside of historical useages for A While. I saw people debating whether or not stuff was red-baiting during Bernie's 2020 run, and some media people trying to prove he was radicalized into cryptocommunism when he took a honeymoon to the USSR, but once he endorsed Biden that basically all went away.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:28
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Deteriorata posted:"Tankie" doesn't mean someone who loves Communism. It derives from people who loved that the SU used tanks to invade and put down an uprising in Hungary. It's a pro-imperialist, not a pro-communist. For what it’s worth this entire time I thought it was referring to the tanks at Tiananmen Square and that it was pro-communist. But I may be dumber than average and maybe more people knew the actual connotation better than me.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:37
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Taco Bell has liberated the term "Taco Tuesday" and allowed it to be used by the masses. Taco Bell sued the person who trademarked the phrase "Taco Tuesday" alleging that it was too broad to allow him to ban anyone else from using the phrase commercially. The original holder - Taco John's - has decided to give up the legal fight because it appears they were likely to lose and didn't want to spend the money dragging out a lost case. The three most important phrases in the English Language: "Happy Birthday", "Taco Tuesday", and "Pooh Bear" are all now free to use by anyone. Do what you will with that information. https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/18/business/taco-tuesday-lawsuit-ends/index.html quote:The battle for the ‘Taco Tuesday’ trademark is over This lawsuit also includes one of my favorite legal filings of all time:  I bet being in-house counsel at Taco Bell is fun.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:43
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:For what it’s worth this entire time I thought it was referring to the tanks at Tiananmen Square and that it was pro-communist. But I may be dumber than average and maybe more people knew the actual connotation better than me. Heck, is there any now, or is it just a day when nothing whatsoever noteworthy occurred?
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Jul 20, 2023 16:44
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As a dad I will continue to schedule tacos on the weekly menu on any day except Tuesday and refer to it loudly and proudly as Taco Wednesday, Taco Friday, etc.
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Jul 20, 2023 16:44
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Professor Beetus posted:To be honest I don't think there are a lot of people outside of this subforum, or the other one that rhymes with ham, that still use or care about either term. The people most accurately considered tankies are mostly known for their habit of human wave attacks in social media and that's where the word most commonly comes up like "lol poo poo is this a tankie invasion again" Like if yall been in some relatively normal facebook meme groups and suddenly there's a tsunami of posts that evangelize brutal paranoid dictatorships that cosplay as communist, that's tankiedom in action Got to witness a really good one this week, flood of posting about how Stalin was a benevolent man of the people and how anything bad you ever heard about the soviet union was cold war propaganda and the gulags were good actually, followed up with some guy going nuts and calling everyone "lib westoids" who would be subject to based execution when communism returns without the "mistake" of compassion And I'm like you goblin rear end weirdos this is a food meme group
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Jul 20, 2023 16:50
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Staluigi posted:you goblin rear end weirdos this is a food meme group If I were still a DND mod this would be the new ce thread title
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Jul 20, 2023 17:03
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Just want to confirm, your guys' opinion is that leftists should not support the lesser of two evils? We ought to let the perfect be the enemy of the less-terrible? Just want to get this cleared up before we enter 2024. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 20, 2023 17:06
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Verus posted:Just want to confirm, your guys' opinion is that leftists should not support the lesser of two evils? We ought to let the perfect be the enemy of the less-terrible? Just want to get this cleared up before we enter 2024. People should vote based on their beliefs OP. If you believe the lesser of two evils is the right thing to vote for, you're golden.
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Jul 20, 2023 17:08
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Well I for one will not be voting for Josef Stalin in the US presidential election in 2024
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Jul 20, 2023 17:11
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Verus posted:Just want to confirm, your guys' opinion is that leftists should not support the lesser of two evils? We ought to let the perfect be the enemy of the less-terrible? Just want to get this cleared up before we enter 2024. They should support the lesser of two evils if it is a binary choice. That is why supporting the tanks crushing the Hungarians is the bad option.
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Jul 20, 2023 17:11
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Verus posted:Just want to confirm, your guys' opinion is that leftists should not support the lesser of two evils? We ought to let the perfect be the enemy of the less-terrible? Just want to get this cleared up before we enter 2024. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlcngdW2Ju4
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Jul 20, 2023 17:13
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Verus posted:Just want to confirm, your guys' opinion is that leftists should not support the lesser of two evils? We ought to let the perfect be the enemy of the less-terrible? Just want to get this cleared up before we enter 2024. Oh no friend, I'm a materialist. You should vote by walking into the booth, muttering a quick prayer, and tossing a bundle of sticks at the ballot and analyzing the material relationship the sticks have to each other and the names on the ballot once they land. This method might need some adaptation if your voting booths have upright monitors that cannot have sticks meaningfully land on/point to anything on them.
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Jul 20, 2023 17:26
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Verus posted:Just want to confirm, your guys' opinion is that leftists should not support the lesser of two evils? We ought to let the perfect be the enemy of the less-terrible? Just want to get this cleared up before we enter 2024. Huh? Which conversation are you trying to jump into with this? Are you saying that Russia is a lesser evil than Ukraine, or that China is a lesser evil than the protestors who got run over by tanks, or that Taco Bell is a lesser evil than Taco John's?
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Jul 20, 2023 17:30
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:
Happy Pooh Tuesday everyone!
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Jul 20, 2023 17:36
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Main Paineframe posted:Huh? Which conversation are you trying to jump into with this? Are you saying that Russia is a lesser evil than Ukraine, or that China is a lesser evil than the protestors who got run over by tanks, or that Taco Bell is a lesser evil than Taco John's? The Soviet empire was a lesser evil than the American empire is what I am implying.
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Jul 20, 2023 17:38
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Verus posted:The Soviet empire was a lesser evil than the American empire is what I am implying. Make sure to vote for the USSR then
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Jul 20, 2023 17:39
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Verus posted:The Soviet empire was a lesser evil than the American empire is what I am implying.
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Jul 20, 2023 17:42
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https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/07/federal-trade-commission-withdraws-health-care-enforcement-policy-statements I just came across an article about this, and went to the FTC to confirm it was real. I don't know enough about the industry (healthcare as an industry 😔😔😔😔), so I'm feeling a bit dim here. My eyes glaze over the second money is brought into things, can someone help me understand if this is a good thing or a terrible one? I pulled down the 96 statement and on initial glance they all look like reasonable asks so I'm clearly missing something.
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Jul 20, 2023 17:43
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Verus posted:The Soviet empire was a lesser evil than the American empire is what I am implying. I mean, that's pretty easy to do when you stop existing for 30 years. The Sasanian Empire is also pretty low evil these days but western chauvinists aren't ready for THAT conversation
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Jul 20, 2023 17:52
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The first policy is 151 pages long and my phone won't download the second, so uh. Based on a skim of the various announcements, the things I can quickly parse are good - there were some specific carveout exemptions that will no longer apply under "general antitrust policy". There's undoubtedly more to it than that though.Verus posted:The Soviet empire was a lesser evil than the American empire is what I am implying. Probably true even after controlling for it being slightly smaller. And to tie it back to your previous post, I will be voting to best mitigate the harms of the American empire. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jul 20, 2023 |
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Jul 20, 2023 17:52
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Verus posted:The Soviet empire was a lesser evil than the American empire is what I am implying. Assuming someone believes that what should that do with that information?
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Jul 20, 2023 17:52
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cool kids inc. posted:https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/07/federal-trade-commission-withdraws-health-care-enforcement-policy-statements It isn't going to have any practical difference. It's withdrawing non-binding guidance statements and saying, "The new guidance is: look at what we've ruled or sued over recently. If you want to do something similar, then don't do it." Basically, if someone was looking to form a partnership or merger before, they were told to check the guidance from 1996 to see if their situation would likely not qualify and to not waste their time. Now, they are saying that you should factor in all of the FTC's recent decisions and court cases when making your decision because it is the most up-to-date and the guidance from 1996 didn't include a lot of new concepts that the FTC has ruled on recently. They aren't going to necessarily follow the carveouts and principles from the 1996 document to letter anymore. They are essentially saying, "We have been enforcing it in a specific way for the past few years and we are now making the guidance official to check what our recent enforcement actions have been. Just because it isn't in the guidance from 1996 doesn't mean you're good to go." They're making their official guidance match what they have been doing for the last few years, essentially.
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Jul 20, 2023 17:58
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cool kids inc. posted:https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/07/federal-trade-commission-withdraws-health-care-enforcement-policy-statements I don't have time to dig through them, but FTC is being more aggressive under this administration than they've been in at least several decades. If they're withdrawing old guidance it's because they think the guidance will work against their efforts at greater enforcement. Also it's pursuant to an earlier agreed action with DOJ.
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Jul 20, 2023 18:11
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That sure is a way to handle policy making, who needs actual written guidelines.
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Jul 20, 2023 18:12
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WarpedLichen posted:That sure is a way to handle policy making, who needs actual written guidelines. The written guidelines are their previous rulings and policy statements. The law already exists that creates the hard limit of what is allowed and the guidelines are just a quick way to check "am I wasting my time by trying this because they have already decided something like this isn't allowed?" The old guidelines from 1996 were a lot less aggressive than recent enforcement actions and rulings and people were basically checking the 1996 guidance and assuming they were good. Now, they are saying to check the actual recent rulings. All of it is non-binding guidance anyway and isn't actually a change in action. The FTC is enforcing the law the same way today that it was in 2021. It is just saying, We are updating the guidance to reflect how we have been operating for several years. If something doesn't exist in the 1996 document, but we have shut down something similar in 2022, then don't waste your time. The absence of mention in the old 1996 document doesn't mean you're good to go, so we are just telling people to stop using that document because it doesn't reflect the reality of 2023 enforcement.
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Jul 20, 2023 18:20
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