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Olympic Mathlete posted:Honestly this is what loving annoys me about EVs, the constant push for range when they're far better an idea for just tootling around doing whatever dumb poo poo jobs you need in daily life. But of course as cars have become more expensive generally they're trying to sell you an EV as your only car and the outliers among us who do more than 50 miles a day are the people the companies are aiming for so range goes up, weight goes up and cost goes up and you end up having to buy much more car than you need. It's so wasteful. They still sell the Nissan Leaf. They have since like 2010. They didn't sell very many last year. It's pretty much exactly what you're describing, a cheap little car to "tootle" around in. Google says they sold 14K last year. Tesla sold like 240K Model 3's in 2022. The Chevy Bolt by all accounts is a great car. Didn't sell very well (until the incentives went nuts on them) Would it be cool to have a little electric car in addition to my other cars to tootle to the store and back or drive the 3 miles to Karate with my kid and back? yeah, it would be cool, but I don't have the space for vehicle like that, nor do I want to deal with insuring, maintaining, and registering a 3rd tootle around vehicle. Most people want a normal car experience from an EV, and that's what kind of EV's are selling. So that's what manufacturers are going to build. You think it's the manufacturers telling us what we need, but it's the opposite, the consumer is dictating with their pocketbook and the auto manufacturers are going to build what sells. skipdogg fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Jul 22, 2023 |
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Olympic Mathlete posted:Honestly this is what loving annoys me about EVs, the constant push for range when they're far better an idea for just tootling around doing whatever dumb poo poo jobs you need in daily life. But of course as cars have become more expensive generally they're trying to sell you an EV as your only car and the outliers among us who do more than 50 miles a day are the people the companies are aiming for so range goes up, weight goes up and cost goes up and you end up having to buy much more car than you need. It's so wasteful. It's the main sound bite electric car skeptics throw when in front of a decent car "what if i need to go in the wilderness where there is no electricity for X km/miles/light years", the car companies are just replying to customer demands.
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Jul 22, 2023 11:29
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The problem is people think "normal car ownership" includes the four hour drive to grandma's every Thanksgiving, and so just rule out any EV that can't do that rather than do the math on renting a gas car for that weekend versus the fuel and maintenance savings on an EV for the other 360 days of the year.
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Jul 22, 2023 12:34
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skipdogg posted:They still sell the Nissan Leaf. They have since like 2010. They didn't sell very many last year. It's pretty much exactly what you're describing, a cheap little car to "tootle" around in. Google says they sold 14K last year. Tesla sold like 240K Model 3's in 2022. The Chevy Bolt by all accounts is a great car. Didn't sell very well (until the incentives went nuts on them) The Leaf had some issues - air cooled battery that couldn't live long enough in hot climates, a DC charging plug/standard (CHADEMO) that now is essentially no longer used outside of Japan and apparently difficult to adapt to the Tesla/CCS plug. The Bolt I thought kept being pulled off the market on and off because the LG Chem batteries kept catching fire and GM was chasing its own tail either suing LG Chem or trying to get a new supplier or whatever. I think the VW ID.4 has a whole bunch of dumb issues as well, all these are essentially because GM/Nissan/VW are Bad at Cars and not inherent to electricity. Since America is set on the path to cold war with China (where the vast majority of EVs in the world are made) at this point the market for affordable EV is more like "used Tesla" instead of "new electric Cavalier". Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Jul 22, 2023 |
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Jul 22, 2023 12:41
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Jean-Paul Shartre posted:The problem is people think "normal car ownership" includes the four hour drive to grandma's every Thanksgiving, and so just rule out any EV that can't do that rather than do the math on renting a gas car for that weekend versus the fuel and maintenance savings on an EV for the other 360 days of the year. Thank you for understanding the point.
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Jul 22, 2023 12:46
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How long does it take to charge a EV at a charging station ? If it is more than like 4-5 minutes I can see that being a turn off to people and a big bottle neck if there is greater adoption of Evs in the future
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Jul 22, 2023 12:51
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I think most of the "fast charge" kinda things are still around the 20 minutes for 80% charge ballpark.
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Jul 22, 2023 12:59
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I do wish the “rent a gas car for the weekend” places weren’t such terrible businesses. We rented an SUV from local Hertz to take camping and the car was a low spec Equinox, was dirty and smelled like someone had smoked in it, and the tank was empty when we picked it up. They had no other SUVs if we didn’t want that one.
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Jul 22, 2023 13:23
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I wouldn't mind a shorter range EV but in practice it just doesn't end up making much sense outside of some niche cases. They're still expensive, they still have parking, registration, inspection, insurance and other costs. And then the range ends up being really short, with slow charging on top. Like I'm not one of the idiots that demands driving 800km without stopping but it'd be nice to go more than an hour on the highway without having to stop for 30-40 minute to top up. They would be perfect for someone like my parents who need to go shopping or some other errands in a nearby town, or less often to the large city nearby, but still within like 50km. And they can charge at 220v in front of the house. But then you look at the EV Up! for example is 3x more expensive than a gas one, and even a shorter weekend drive would be a pain in the rear end. https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=370508761 https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=368147372
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Jul 22, 2023 13:26
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mobby_6kl posted:But then you look at the EV Up! for example is 3x more expensive than a gas one, and even a shorter weekend drive would be a pain in the rear end. To be fair, a gas Up (Exclamation Point) is basically a tin shed from home depot with two bus seat benches and a lawnmower engine dropped in. I wouldn't be surprised if an EV battery/motor system wholesale does cost two or three times everything else in the car.
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Jul 22, 2023 13:59
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Quote (Exclamation Point)= Edit
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Jul 22, 2023 13:59
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The real solution to the EV range problem is a plug-in hybrid with around 50-100 miles of electric range. Most day to day driving is done pure electric, with plenty of range for road trips when needed. Drastically cuts emissions by doing most driving electric, while not requiring the extractive emissions and costs of a 300+ mile battery.
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Jul 22, 2023 15:34
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But more expensive than the gas version.
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Jul 22, 2023 15:36
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Jean-Paul Shartre posted:To be fair, a gas Up (Exclamation Point) is basically a tin shed from home depot with two bus seat benches and a lawnmower engine dropped in. I wouldn't be surprised if an EV battery/motor system wholesale does cost two or three times everything else in the car. Yep, but it's only this kind of shitbox where it makes sense even theoretically I think. Who'd want to spend $50k on a fancy new ride with lovely range when you can get the long-range version for $55k for example.
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Jul 22, 2023 15:51
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Disgruntled Bovine posted:The real solution to the EV range problem is a plug-in hybrid with around 50-100 miles of electric range. Most day to day driving is done pure electric, with plenty of range for road trips when needed. Drastically cuts emissions by doing most driving electric, while not requiring the extractive emissions and costs of a 300+ mile battery. Several manufacturers including Kia/Hyundai and GM have reported that plug-in hybrid sales demand has already peaked and are expected to shrink in the future. They're complicated, buyers don't understand them for the most part and if you live in a city and use the PHEV as a plug-in, you have to deal with gas getting old and you spend more money on oil and other fluid changes than you do on gas. If you don't plug it in, the car spends its whole life lugging around an expensive useless battery. I've known two Chevy Volt owners, and neither plugged it in because neither had anywhere to plug at work or at home. https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a44304853/chevy-volt-why-people-dont-plug-in-phevs/ What is the point of an expensive, small, efficiency focused car that averages 25MPG over its lifetime? 
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Jul 22, 2023 16:10
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I don't mind the Mini screen but mostly because the speedo in the middle was always stupid and this isn't any stupider so it didn't change anything in my mind.
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Jul 22, 2023 16:30
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Pr0kjayhawk posted:I rented one last month and I completely agree. It was fantastic. Only real downside is it gets worse highway mileage than my Quadrifoglio which is a shame. If you’re driving around with a penalty box 4cyl you should at least get phenomenal gas mileage. my 2015 xB gets pretty lovely mileage for a 4 cylinder (22 city and not much better hwy it's a box), but it's pretty big at 2.4 liters and has great torque off the line for what it is. It's also super simple (4 speed auto lol) and reliable so I'll take the tradeoff. If it was super slow and/or I had a long commute I'd be tempted to get rid of it but it does great around town and pulls my little boat so I'm happy with it
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Jul 22, 2023 16:44
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Applebees Appetizer posted:my 2015 xB gets pretty lovely mileage for a 4 cylinder (22 city and not much better hwy it's a box), but it's pretty big at 2.4 liters and has great torque off the line for what it is. It's also super simple (4 speed auto lol) and reliable so I'll take the tradeoff. If it was super slow and/or I had a long commute I'd be tempted to get rid of it but it does great around town and pulls my little boat so I'm happy with it It's a drat shame what they did to the xB. The 2004-2006 ones were so much more efficient, better to park, and even boxier. Still felt super spacious inside because of how upright they were!
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Jul 22, 2023 16:47
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Twerk from Home posted:What is the point of an expensive, small, efficiency focused car that averages 25MPG over its lifetime? These mostly sound like market/user problems than issues with what I said. Why would you get a PHEV if you don't have anywhere to plug it in at home? The gas issue is solvable by not filling up when you don't have any long trips planned in the next few months. The oil change issue isn't really an issue except when compared with an electric car. Fundamentally there isn't enough lithium for everyone to have a 300+ mile EV with lithium battery chemistry. I'm not saying plug in hybrids make market sense, but they make more environmental sense than pure electrics.
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Jul 22, 2023 16:52
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Is it really so bad to just drive around in a Prius or other standard hybrid? Also lithium scarcity is a present day problem. And it’s more to do with cobalt rather than lithium. The reality is we are developing battery technology from other materials very quickly and to suggest lithium is the end state of battery tech this century would be like suggesting lead acid or nickel cadium is the be all and end all of the 20th century.
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Jul 22, 2023 16:57
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Twerk from Home posted:Several manufacturers including Kia/Hyundai and GM have reported that plug-in hybrid sales demand has already peaked and are expected to shrink in the future.  https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/overview/35-Opel/1258-Ampera.html?powerunit=2 I guess the electricity might be for the pure EV model (Ampera-E aka Bolt). But 2.3l/100km is 102mpg so people are clearly charging them. But it could be because it's the subset of people actively tracking their fuel economy. Plug-ins definitely seem like something that theoretically makes sense but  I had a rental XC40 Recharge in Sweden and it felt like it wasn't worth it. I plugged it in at every opportunity (which was a pain in the rear end of course, had to specifically look for parking with chargers, some required different apps & registration, some non-working or not compatible chargers) and other than a singe ~100km highway trip mostly stayed in EV or hybrid mode but in the end overall efficiency was no better than a normal car.
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Jul 22, 2023 17:01
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Disgruntled Bovine posted:Fundamentally there isn't enough lithium for everyone to have a 300+ mile EV with lithium battery chemistry. It seem that there is enough lithium reserves, the problem is increasing production fast enough. https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/lithium-electric-vehicles Does the World Have Enough Lithium for Batteries? quote:Nature reports that your average car likely takes up about 8 kilograms of lithium (another number that’ll likely decrease over time). After some number crunching, courtesy of Ritchie, you get 2.8 billion EVs from that 22 million tonnes of lithium. With 1.4 billion cars on the road now, that might seem like a tight margin, but one likely improved with growing innovations in mining and battery technology—not to mention this is only Earth’s reserves of lithium. When extrapolated out to 88 million tonnes, that adds up to around 11 billion EVs. Disgruntled Bovine posted:The real solution to the EV range problem is a plug-in hybrid with around 50-100 miles of electric range. Most day to day driving is done pure electric, with plenty of range for road trips when needed. Drastically cuts emissions by doing most driving electric, while not requiring the extractive emissions and costs of a 300+ mile battery. It's true that for many people a hybrid would be the cheapest option for car ownership, but it has a major failing at one of the important purposes of EVs. Getting rid of internal combustion engine. A pure EV has a numerous advantages over ICE and everyone has to personally decide if they are enough to offset the considerable expense.
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Jul 22, 2023 17:35
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Olympic Mathlete posted:Short range EVs City EVs should certainly exist (and do in other countries) but the problem with 100m range EV is it’s really an 80m range EV because you won’t charge to 100 with current battery tech. And it’s only an 80m range EV in perfect circumstances. If you need to run the heat, or there’s snow or rain then you’ve really closer to a 50m range and you’re going to spend a half an hour charging at a DC charger to get back up to 80% if you do need to stop and charge because small batteries don’t really charge any faster due to requiring slower charge rates. If they were really cheap that would still be an appealing proposition but they won’t be really cheap either because 1/3rd the battery doesn’t translate to 1/3rd the cost. So you pay maybe 75% of what you’d pay for an EV with 3x the range. Sab669 posted:I think most of the "fast charge" kinda things are still around the 20 minutes for 80% charge ballpark. More like 30-40 to go from 10-80%. Only 800v EVs on 350KW chargers (not common) are getting to 20 minutes. Teslas are in the mid to high twenties on the 250kw super chargers. Stuff like the ID.4 and Mach-E are limited to 125 or 150kw and will take longer.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:03
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Kraftwerk posted:Is it really so bad to just drive around in a Prius or other standard hybrid? My second gen is a little pile of misery but it's absolutely perfect at what it's designed to do and actually a great little car. They're the perfect vehicle for the majority of people. There are a ton of non-Prius options for hybrids too if you don't want the "stigma" that some people feel a Prius has. I should be replacing mine with another but I'm stupid and have been talking to a guy with a 2018 330i that is more than likely going to be my next commuter. If I could get a fourth gen Prius with similar mileage for a sane price I'd already have one, but any of those with under 100k miles are still well over $20k. But there's a reason for that.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:16
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YOLOsubmarine posted:City EVs should certainly exist (and do in other countries) but the problem with 100m range EV is it’s really an 80m range EV because you won’t charge to 100 with current battery tech. And it’s only an 80m range EV in perfect circumstances. If you need to run the heat, or there’s snow or rain then you’ve really closer to a 50m range and you’re going to spend a half an hour charging at a DC charger to get back up to 80% if you do need to stop and charge because small batteries don’t really charge any faster due to requiring slower charge rates. Car OEM deliberately skipped small battery cars for the US due to charger anxiety but it's not like Europe doesn't think about it. Honda and Mazda makes tiny battery cars and they have sales so small in numbers, they are either keeping them for compliance reasons(Honda) or started selling range extender variants(Mazda). Stellantis doesn't seem very keen on selling eCMP variants or new 500/600 since FCA balance still has a crater with 500e written on it. If you want to see a sample of tiny-medium battery sized charging speeds, the ecobest report i posted earlier has a table dedicated to it.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:23
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Twerk from Home posted:It's a drat shame what they did to the xB. The 2004-2006 ones were so much more efficient, better to park, and even boxier. Still felt super spacious inside because of how upright they were! I like my xB2, the first gen is too small and anemic which equates to better economy but I'd rather have more room and power that the second gen has. It's also a lot safer, I'm on my second one as the first was totaled head on by a drunk driver and I walked away (altho I don't remember that hardly lol) In the first gen xb or any other older car I would have seriously injured or dead.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:33
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SlowBloke posted:Car OEM deliberately skipped small battery cars for the US due to charger anxiety but it's not like Europe doesn't think about it. Honda and Mazda makes tiny battery cars and they have sales so small in numbers, they are either keeping them for compliance reasons(Honda) or started selling range extender variants(Mazda). Stellantis doesn't seem very keen on selling eCMP variants or new 500/600 since FCA balance still has a crater with 500e written on it. I don’t think they’re an especially attractive proposition right now but I could see a future where battery technology improvements allowing for charging to 100% routinely and faster charging speeds would mitigate the worst issues with small batteries and create more of a market for shorter range EVs. They’d need to be relatively inexpensive though and cheaper, lower content cars is definitely not the trend.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:34
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Disgruntled Bovine posted:These mostly sound like market/user problems than issues with what I said. Yeah, PHEVs are the ideal solution assuming that people are willing to think about their cars and actually make the slightest change, but that's hard to actually do at scale. I have a PHEV! Micro-managing gas cycling is a pain, and we did have an intermittent misfire one time, which made me realize the gas in it was 8 months old at that point. I thought that keeping a gas tank always near-empty was bad for the car too, so I tend to fill up when about half empty. Our Kia Niro PHEV was cheaper than a non-plug in one because of the tax credit. As for why people buy PHEVs despite not having anywhere to charge at home, ask about half of Wrangler PHEV buyers? My neighbors have one, and it's never been plugged in. I'm pretty sure that car will live its entire life without being plugged in. My understanding is that the tax credit makes it cheaper to buy a PHEV and never plug it in than to buy a gas one of similar trim?
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Jul 22, 2023 18:38
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Twerk from Home posted:As for why people buy PHEVs despite not having anywhere to charge at home, ask about half of Wrangler PHEV buyers? My neighbors have one, and it's never been plugged in. I'm pretty sure that car will live its entire life without being plugged in. My understanding is that the tax credit makes it cheaper to buy a PHEV and never plug it in than to buy a gas one of similar trim? Or particularly in the case of leasing since chopping $7500 (or more) off the front-end does a lot for reducing the monthly payment while also being more convenient as far as tax burden/income limitation. A $60k vehicle for $450/mo seems like a pretty good deal. Also depending on market Stellantis is really pushing the Wrangler 4Xe so as to bolster their PZEV numbers to the point that's all they're shipping the dealers, and if you want a regular ICE you need to custom order it.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:54
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smackfu posted:I do wish the “rent a gas car for the weekend” places weren’t such terrible businesses. We rented an SUV from local Hertz to take camping and the car was a low spec Equinox, was dirty and smelled like someone had smoked in it, and the tank was empty when we picked it up. They had no other SUVs if we didn’t want that one. I think people really underestimate how much of a pain this is. Plus if we’re talking about a model that will scale to every person in America (or a majority, whatever) having an ev city car and just rent a car when they need a long trip how stressful will that be during peek seasons like thanksgiving? I don’t drive more than 40 miles per day probably 95 percent of the time but for that other 5 percent I need it available without thought
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Jul 22, 2023 18:57
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The rental thing always comes up whether it’s for range or utility and it’s more of a lifestyle thing, since everyone should be okay with a 100 mile range yaris ev or something every car purchase is wrong.
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Jul 22, 2023 19:29
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Renting is pretty annoying, I've done it a few times as I only had the Miata for years. There's an airport close by but it still takes at least 40 minutes to get there by public transport, then do all the usual bureaucracy. God forbid if someone scratches it in parking or you have to return at a weird time and either the office is closed or public transport is infrequent. Or shell out even more $$$ for someone to bring you the car. If you do this more than a few times a year, it'll wipe out any savings you might've achieved in the first place.
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Jul 22, 2023 19:39
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Short range EVs really only make sense in the US. You would use a bike or train in most other countries. I know I'm an outlier being able to walk to work, but it really changes your perspective on what could be (and maybe will be in 30 years even in the US). A car is honestly miserable in any high density area, so it just becomes a luxury item, designed to take you far away from the busy-ness. In that sense, EVs become an even harder sell when even the best ones are limited to a ~100 mile radius without charging. I imagine most people buying them in the US are using them for relatively short commutes, because all metrics point to EVs being driven much less than gas vehicles on average.
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Jul 22, 2023 20:02
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MeruFM posted:I imagine most people buying them in the US are using them for relatively short commutes, because all metrics point to EVs being driven much less than gas vehicles on average. How many hours a day are most cars run? I spend about 1.5 hours a day in the car to cover about 18 miles driving distance when I'm commuting by car, is that dramatically less than most Americans? Commutes like that work really well with the plug in range on basically any PHEV, including the Niro I'm doing it in. Do most Americans spend 3 hours a day in the car?
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Jul 22, 2023 20:09
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MeruFM posted:Short range EVs really only make sense in the US. You would use a bike or train in most other countries. Your scenario ignores areas with elevation variations or public transportation covering only the main urban areas. I'm getting an electric car to go to the office since the bus gets there every hour, unlike all the other urban bus being every ten minutes or so. This is in Europe by the way.
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Jul 22, 2023 20:37
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Twerk from Home posted:I spend about 1.5 hours a day in the car to cover about 18 miles driving distance when I'm commuting by car Jesus, you poor bastard. My commute is about 35 miles one way but it only takes me 40 minutes. Twerk from Home posted:Yeah, PHEVs are the ideal solution assuming that people are willing to think about their cars and actually make the slightest change, but that's hard to actually do at scale. I have a PHEV! Micro-managing gas cycling is a pain, and we did have an intermittent misfire one time, which made me realize the gas in it was 8 months old at that point. I thought that keeping a gas tank always near-empty was bad for the car too, so I tend to fill up when about half empty. Our Kia Niro PHEV was cheaper than a non-plug in one because of the tax credit. I've used PHEVs as gateway drugs for two different people now. Both were making up scenarios that happen like once a year and using those as reasons why they couldn't get an electric car, and I convinced them to try PHEVs. Both charge at home and at work and thus run only electric for their entire commute, every day. One of them has straight up said "my next car will be an electric", the other is still on the fence but since he's effectively running all electric I'd think it's only a matter of time before he realizes how easy it would be to go full electric. FAKE EDIT: I texted one of them and asked, his lifetime average is 294 mpg right now.
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Jul 22, 2023 22:00
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Twerk from Home posted:How many hours a day are most cars run? I spend about 1.5 hours a day in the car to cover about 18 miles driving distance when I'm commuting by car, is that dramatically less than most Americans? Commutes like that work really well with the plug in range on basically any PHEV, including the Niro I'm doing it in. Depending on where you look you get stats like half of trips are under 6 miles, 28% under a single mile and only 2% over 50. It seems to vary but overall those who are doing lots of miles are the outliers in all the stats I've seen. That 28% under a mile though is a joke even if overstated.
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Jul 22, 2023 22:48
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If everyone went EV and rented a gas when needed, the rental fleets would be full of EV vehicles
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Jul 22, 2023 22:52
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Twerk from Home posted:How many hours a day are most cars run? I spend about 1.5 hours a day in the car to cover about 18 miles driving distance when I'm commuting by car, is that dramatically less than most Americans? Commutes like that work really well with the plug in range on basically any PHEV, including the Niro I'm doing it in. I guess I don't have as much visibility into Europe compared to Asia, but the point generally still stands. A big (and ever expanding) % of people live in urban environments. It has recently passed 50%. Many Americans drive less than 5-10 miles to work because there is no other way. That's kind of where low range EVs (and technically PHEV) would be best in. But it would be better served in all sorts of ways (environmentally, cost, space, etc) if they just took transit or bike (or e-bike if you do have elevation). EV scooters are also a pretty good compromise as well because they do have the 50-100 mile range ppl need for commutes while also taking relatively little space but also don't require any pedaling at all which is how you can get more density. It's absolutely a chicken-egg problem where the more car-centric a place is, the more space you dedicate to cars which means the city is less dense which means the average commute is longer which means the cost analysis gravitates towards cars which means... etc etc MeruFM fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Jul 23, 2023 |
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Jul 22, 2023 23:08
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Olympic Mathlete posted:If we're doing EVs as a thing there needs to be more bog-standard stuff available, fun little things to courier yourself around in day to day rather than 2+ ton of battery and mild steel with 400+ miles of battery you don't get anywhere near using the capacity of. Completely agreed, let me know if anyone wants to start a car company doing this. Just good cheap A->B product. It will be there in 25 years but I'd like it to be there now.
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