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We have always been getting Swedish Dracula's version of Werewolf. Like, the entirety of the Get have fallen to the Wyrm in the current draft, right? That writer's objection is that even creating such an antagonist faction is implicitly writing rules for playing super-powered Nazis, just like you technically had everything you needed to play Black Spiral Dancers or Technocrats or Nephandi in the games of yesteryear. It's Ericsson's world (of darkness). The rest of us are just living in it.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:21
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Kurieg posted:Eventually he got let go and things got pulled in house with Paradox If you're talking about Karim Muammar here, then unless I'm mistaken but going by the book credits he wasn't let go. I'm pretty sure he's the only consistent member of the WoD5 creative team for every single line, from the very beginning. Co-creator of V5, Brand Editor on V5, H5, and I assume W5 even now.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:22
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Kurieg posted:After they fired martin but before they Brought on Achilli and took Werewolf in house, they left one of Martin's friends in charge of W5 development who was very obviously still using Martin's playbook and was trying to make the Get into Turbo mega Nazis and kill off the W* in the process to show how poo poo'S GOTTEN REAL. Eventually he got let go and things got pulled in house with Paradox but they've still somehow found unrelated rakes to step on, but at that point the author of the post was out of the loop and thus unable to comment. Muammar hasn't been let go to my knowledge, and he is one of the people "in house." I'm not sure whether he was "in charge" of W5 development, it sounds like his job title was the same one that it is now. But he remains credited for books developed under Achilli, including both an editor and writer's credit on the V5 Player's Guide.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:26
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Ferrinus posted:We have always been getting Swedish Dracula's version of Werewolf. Like, the entirety of the Get have fallen to the Wyrm in the current draft, right? That writer's objection is that even creating such an antagonist faction is implicitly writing rules for playing super-powered Nazis, just like you technically had everything you needed to play Black Spiral Dancers or Technocrats or Nephandi in the games of yesteryear. Iirc they're just all fallen to hauglosk but not all Nazis. Free Cog posted:If you're talking about Karim Muammar here, then unless I'm mistaken but going by the book credits he wasn't let go. I'm pretty sure he's the only consistent member of the WoD5 creative team for every single line, from the very beginning. Co-creator of V5, Brand Editor on V5, H5, and I assume W5 even now. Oh well then. Guess I'll still not buy W5.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:30
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Kurieg posted:Iirc they're just all fallen to hauglosk but not all Nazis. So I realize I don't actually know or remember: in W: tA, are you literally born into your tribe, or do you choose and get ritually initiated into it? I'm not actually sure what "they're all evil now" means for a freshly-changed werewolf, especially one who'd like to pledge to Fenris because it sounds cool.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:39
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You are not a member of the tribe until your initiation when the tribal totem chooses you. But outside of cases like male children of black furies or Metis being adopted by another clan you tend to join the clan of your parentage. But I'm not sure a hauglosk fuged tribe would even be able to have kids not to mention raise them.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:45
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Wrong thread
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Jul 22, 2023 18:55
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Ferrinus posted:So I realize I don't actually know or remember: in W: tA, are you literally born into your tribe, or do you choose and get ritually initiated into it? Ferrinus posted:I'm not actually sure what "they're all evil now" means for a freshly-changed werewolf, especially one who'd like to pledge to Fenris because it sounds cool. But more directly, it means that newly changed pups AREN’T becoming members of that tribe, because they can’t do the initiation rites and pledge to the totem. In oWoD lore this has happened a few times, most notably with the fall of a few tribes (and some Apocalypse material) depending on what happened, another tribe usually takes them in. In the revised Red Talons book, it mentioned their totem taking in some weakened former totems’ aspects as part of his brood.
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Jul 22, 2023 19:03
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ZearothK posted:That said, I don't think it's that bad to have stuff like the old Verbena book going "so, part of this faction supported the Nazis during the 1930s-1940s" as long as it is not written as apologia. WW2 happened, if writers are exploring about what everyone in the World of Darkness was doing at the time some of them are bound to have gotten involved in that mass madness and other reactionary movements. The problem is the double standard. The Get dealt with their infestation but they still get bounced. The Tzimisce get to stay and never dealt with it.
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Jul 22, 2023 19:29
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Dawgstar posted:The problem is the double standard. The Get dealt with their infestation but they still get bounced. The Tzimisce get to stay and never dealt with it. Vampires aren't really held to that kind of standard. This leads to funny things when the lines crossover, like in Blood Treachery where the book is basically: "The Tremere antediluvian is very upset at how poorly you mages have behaved today." Then the reader asks "what about the Tremere antediluvian's many, many crimes against humanity, that he is committing right now, even as we are talking," and the book basically responds "what about them?" because fundamentally Mage is about shaming mages who behave badly and Vampire is absolutely not about doing that to vampires.
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Jul 22, 2023 19:59
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Yeah, like we've had generations since those mistakes were made. Vampires on the other hand are immortal and half of Hitler's cabinet is hanging out in Berlin by Night.
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Jul 22, 2023 20:18
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AmiYumi posted:Traditionally, both - Tribes have lineages, some of which interact into “Pure Breed” and all that bag of worms; you are not a member without going through an initiation rite & getting accepted by the Totem, which can be a bare formality or require grueling effort depending on circumstances. Sure they can! One of the biggest crises facing the Garou in the old edition was finding lost cubs before the Spirals got to them and indoctrinated them first, and the preview documents already make mention of losing new werewolves to "wayward tribes". I'm sure the new Get will slot right along side the Spirals in terms of that threat. Kurieg posted:But I'm not sure a hauglosk fuged tribe would even be able to have kids not to mention raise them. Juries out on just how much of a fugue the state of Full Hauglosk is, but aside from that, heredity is no longer a reliable predictor of who will be a Garou. They were pretty hardcore about removing all the breeding aspects of the game, so who ultimately undergoes the First Change is a Great Mysterytm.
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Jul 22, 2023 20:54
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Free Gratis posted:Sure they can! Yeah but having the Get be a new fascist villain faction because Nazi-ism is in fact hereditary and inescapable is extremely bad writing.
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Jul 22, 2023 21:07
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Kurieg posted:Yeah but having the Get be a new fascist villain faction because Nazi-ism is in fact hereditary and inescapable is extremely bad writing. Uuuuh sure. You won't get any argument from me on that front but was I mistaken to think we were currently talking about W5 as is, and not whatever nonsense Karim Muammar was up to?
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Jul 22, 2023 21:17
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Well apparently Karim Muammar is still writing for W5.
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Jul 22, 2023 21:42
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Free Gratis posted:Uuuuh sure. You won't get any argument from me on that front but was I mistaken to think we were currently talking about W5 as is, and not whatever nonsense Karim Muammar was up to? In W5 as it is the Get of Fenris are no longer playable because they have all become fascists. This is literally what Justin Achilli revealed to fans eight months ago. They all fell to hauglosk and now are all Nazis. e: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TI9FGZeku83c_rdJQl2cZzbaUg2MEMInYMG4pjUFfyw/edit here's a Q&A summary for last October. e2: Like, okay, maybe they decided not to have them be all Nazis in the time since Hunters lost the book and now...but since, uh, this is exactly the pitch Karim gave them that they refused to write, I don't think it's gonna be different. Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jul 22, 2023 |
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Jul 22, 2023 21:48
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Mors Rattus posted:...but since, uh, this is exactly the pitch Karim gave them that they refused to write, I don't think it's gonna be different. Maybe once we see exactly what Full Hauglosk is I'll eat my words and what little faith I have in Justin Achilli will vanish as I see they really are all fascists and not just always feeling "extreme urgency". But I literally have no idea where the hell the "Nazi-ism is in fact hereditary" statement is coming from. edit: in reference to the current development of W5. Free Gratis fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Jul 22, 2023 |
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Jul 22, 2023 22:07
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Pretty much any piece of oWoD setting design is always going to mean playing with fire because your main character splat is either going to be a proxy for your race, or a proxy for some second- or third-order character attributes like high school clique or income bracket that, in the modern world, is hopelessly entangled with race anyway. Vampire has typically gotten away with this by mostly leaning heavily on the various goth vs. prep dichotomies that are at least a couple Kevins Bacon from the real cultural third rail, and Werewolf has typically gotten away with this because its splats at least tend to tie you to various subaltern national identities that are engaged in heroic acts of resistance, even if the specific portrayal tends to be clumsy, tasteless, or outright offensive at times. But this means that if you take any player character tribe and turn them all evil you are actually implicating some racial or national heritage or other.
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Jul 22, 2023 22:22
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Rand Brittain posted:This leads to funny things when the lines crossover, like in Blood Treachery where the book is basically: "The Tremere antediluvian is very upset at how poorly you mages have behaved today." Then the reader asks "what about the Tremere antediluvian's many, many crimes against humanity, that he is committing right now, even as we are talking," and the book basically responds "what about them?" because fundamentally Mage is about shaming mages who behave badly and Vampire is absolutely not about doing that to vampires. If I were a mage I would simply turn [Tremere] into a lawn chair.  Mors Rattus posted:e2: Like, okay, maybe they decided not to have them be all Nazis in the time since Hunters lost the book and now...but since, uh, this is exactly the pitch Karim gave them that they refused to write, I don't think it's gonna be different. Probably easier to make educated guesses why Paradox took development in house.
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Jul 22, 2023 22:41
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Free Gratis posted:But I literally have no idea where the hell the "Nazi-ism is in fact hereditary" statement is coming from. edit: in reference to the current development of W5. After Revised spent so much time turning the Get of Fenris into something good and actively heroic and Explicitly killing all the Swords of Heimdall their stated goal was to have them backslide all the way back to First Edition and become White Supremacist Fascists again, and the fact that W5 is not making them playable and in fact seems to imply that they are an antagonist faction on par with the Black Spirals means that that is more or less what happening. "You are unable to escape the sins of your fathers so stop hoping for better things" is one hell of a political statement to make in the loving 2020s.
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Jul 23, 2023 00:46
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"Nothing gets better, everything gets worse" - finally, an attitude all the market niches can agree on! I would presume that even if Fenris himself fell to the Wyrm or whatever is up with this hauglosk thing, many individual Get would have been able to jump ship. They are pretty good at fighting, and several other tribes have fairly open recruitment policies. Especially the Bone Gnawers! As for joyless, I think referring to the tribe in question as "Little Brother" in your own writing is a good call, you may just want to put in an explicit note about that when you reach the next point where they come up in your reviews.
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Jul 23, 2023 01:01
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What did Karim Muammar even do before being handed some/all of the keys to the 5e franchise? I can't turn up anything about having ever worked on any books prior to V5, so is he just like, a Paradox person who said sure I'll gently caress up your IP and not ask for more money, a friend of Swedrac, or both?
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Jul 23, 2023 01:06
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Nessus posted:I would presume that even if Fenris himself fell to the Wyrm or whatever is up with this hauglosk thing, many individual Get would have been able to jump ship. They are pretty good at fighting, and several other tribes have fairly open recruitment policies. Especially the Bone Gnawers! The aside I was trying to make about totem patronage is that Lion - after the White Howlers fell and it was no longer a tribal totem - eventually became a spirit in Griffin’s brood (one I’d presume is still interested in its former tribe’s kin, but I don’t have my books on hand)
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Jul 23, 2023 01:10
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Yeah, I imagine surviving White Howlers would have joined up with the Fianna or something, but oh, the agony of being the last white howler
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Jul 23, 2023 01:33
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Nessus posted:I would presume that even if Fenris himself fell to the Wyrm or whatever is up with this hauglosk thing, many individual Get would have been able to jump ship. They are pretty good at fighting, and several other tribes have fairly open recruitment policies. Especially the Bone Gnawers! Achilli has nudge nudge winked winked that Ex-Get may be a loresheet. Kurieg posted:After Revised spent so much time turning the Get of Fenris into something good and actively heroic and Explicitly killing all the Swords of Heimdall their stated goal was to have them backslide all the way back to First Edition and become White Supremacist Fascists again, and the fact that W5 is not making them playable and in fact seems to imply that they are an antagonist faction on par with the Black Spirals means that that is more or less what happening. I understand that we’ve just had an exposé where a chud wanted to go full Sword of Heimdall, but until I see the full nature of Hauglosk and it’s effects, I’m reserving the urge to jump to “oh they’re nazis”, because none of the previews has given me any indication that they’re rocking with that. I’m sorry, I just do not have the same reading of Hauglosk as you, with the scant info we’ve been given. Considering Hauglosk is on the character sheet, alongside Harano, and Justin has stated that a design goal is for players to experience the extremes of being a Garou, then “we’re all just inevitable fascists” is an even bolder political statement to make. That would indeed suck if it’s the case! As a related note, I actually hate having Harano/Hauglosk trackers. Combined with the incredibly pessimistic tone of some of the early previews, I don’t feel great that they have Mega Depression as a trackable stat. There’s other design choices that I think are weird too, (like Rage only tangentially affecting your chance to frenzy) so W5 ultimately falls in the “likely not for me” category. I’m hoping it has stuff to steal, though.
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Jul 23, 2023 01:45
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:What did Karim Muammar even do before being handed some/all of the keys to the 5e franchise? I can't turn up anything about having ever worked on any books prior to V5, so is he just like, a Paradox person who said sure I'll gently caress up your IP and not ask for more money, a friend of Swedrac, or both? LARP Buddy who also did some 'story' writing in HOI4, which as we all know, is a modern masterpiece of morally complex storytelling (and also, unironically, Paradox has always had a wee bit of a Nazi Problem in that they do insanely dumb poo poo like make Hitler the tutorial voice for HoI3, so his working on HOI4 first uh... tracks.) He also worked like two decades ago 'writing' for lovely mobile games and wrote one (1) psuedo-manga comic book, which seems rather poorly received. drat fools should've hired me instead.
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Jul 23, 2023 01:47
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Loomer posted:LARP Buddy who also did some 'story' writing in HOI4, which as we all know, is a modern masterpiece of morally complex storytelling (and also, unironically, Paradox has always had a wee bit of a Nazi Problem in that they do insanely dumb poo poo like make Hitler the tutorial voice for HoI3, so his working on HOI4 first uh... tracks.) He also worked like two decades ago 'writing' for lovely mobile games and wrote one (1) psuedo-manga comic book, which seems rather poorly received. This is unsubstantiated but I’ve heard he was the one who lobbied to get Ericsson hired.
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Jul 23, 2023 01:50
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Free Gratis posted:Achilli has nudge nudge winked winked that Ex-Get may be a loresheet. Hauglosk isn't Facism. Hauglosk is an extreme drive to just go out and loving Do something. It's the Mania to Harano's Depression. For some reason that hasn't been explained the *entirety* of the Get have fallen to permanent hauglosk and Are Sir Not Playable In this Book as a result. The fact that player characters can fall to Hauglosk and come out the other side but for some reason get can't is just loving weird. And feels to me like they're just trying real hard to prevent players from playing a faction that they don't want to write for anymore but *also* don't want to give them a heroic last stand or something like the Croatan got. So they have to still be around but Not Playable for some reason. So yes, the line devs are saying No, You can't play Get, and refusing to explain why beyond "No you can't play Get and you should feel bad for wanting it." So given the fact that the Two line devs before Achilli were screaming to the heavens that they wanted to make the Get Nazis again forgive us for thinking that the Get might be Nazis again. But yeah the fact that there's Mania/Depression meters on the character sheet and the way Rage works and the fact that they're being so cagey about what the gently caress is up with one of my favorite factions Is making me think this game just is not for me either. Kurieg fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Jul 23, 2023 |
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Jul 23, 2023 01:57
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Kurieg posted:So given the fact that the Two line devs before Achilli were screaming to the heavens that they wanted to make the Get Nazis again forgive us for thinking that the Get might be Nazis again. Ok.
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Jul 23, 2023 02:03
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So the Get may not so much be evil as destructive and chaotic because they've all gotten hopped up like that one Finnish guy who took thirty amphetamine rations and entered some kind of fugue?
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Jul 23, 2023 02:04
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Nessus posted:So the Get may not so much be evil as destructive and chaotic because they've all gotten hopped up like that one Finnish guy who took thirty amphetamine rations and entered some kind of fugue? This may be a hot take, but my gut feeling is that the new Get are kind of going to be like Heroes from The Very Bad Game. You know…*unreasonable* Not exactly the best alternative to full bore fascism, but hey. Kurieg posted:But yeah the fact that there's Mania/Depression meters on the character sheet and the way Rage works and the fact that they're being so cagey about what the gently caress is up with one of my favorite factions Is making me think this game just is not for me either. You edited this in before my last reply, otherwise I’d have addressed it. I have good friends who are also huge GoF fans, and once the initial shock of them not being playable wore off, they actually got excited thinking about their former characters falling to Hauglosk. They could easily envision a scenario where they doubled down on their zeal and get sent over the edge as the tribe succumbs to whatever WAAAAGH falls over them. I won’t lie, they’re excitement may have rubbed off on me.
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Jul 23, 2023 02:15
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I'm personally curious how they're handling W5 bone gnawers since they were treated as a dumping ground by the other tribes for the broken and the lost (when not treated as a joke). You need to choose to follow Rat and convince Her to let you join Her in W5. Granted, they were always the best tribe so i'm all for it. (One of my favorite BG characters started off as an expendable cub that had the milk run mission to become a claith go spectacularly sideways thanks to piss poor planning by those in charge of it, managed to crawl back missing an arm and eye and be told it was his fault, and was handed a silver knife to make sure the others wouldn't have to suffer his sickness. He went "gently caress this", followed Rat, and went by Lucky.) Free Gratis posted:Maybe once we see exactly what Full Hauglosk is I'll eat my words and what little faith I have in Justin Achilli will vanish as I see they really are all fascists and not just always feeling "extreme urgency". I think there's some accidental (and not so accidental) conflation of the various versions that have gone around. Everything I've seen about Hauglosk is less fascist-adjacent and more "this is what happens when a group of rage fueled war machines decide to go all in on zealotry without any moderating influence". They read as a whole tribe made up of Waywards from Hunter. There's no birthright to any tribe, where you'd have to prove your heritage to be close enough to the bouncer deciding whether you get to partake of the rites to get into this or that particular Cool Kids Club. So I don't see that much of an issue with most kinfolk not deciding to go join the Furious Assholes League unless they don't see a choice. Same with joining the Degenerate Assholes League by being dared to breakdance down the Spiral.
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Jul 23, 2023 02:25
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It's fine if Black Furies take any gender now but that does take away some of the shtick. I mean, I guess they still have 'protect the Wyld places' and all but that's sort of like 'fighting the Wyrm' in every tribe is technically supposed to do it.
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Jul 23, 2023 02:27
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I finally read that whole post and what the gently caress, the Nazi stuff with the Get was really the footnote of that whole post, and the consistent and rampant disrespect and minimization of Native American culture, history, and practices was the really bad poo poo.Kurieg posted:Yeah but having the Get be a new fascist villain faction because Nazi-ism is in fact hereditary and inescapable is extremely bad writing. Except they're not, because even in Heart of the Forest where your PC is a descendant of some Get, that's actually a rarity overall and most Garou are just "chosen by Gaia" like the kid sweeping the floor at the end of the Last Jedi - W5 has done away with all heredity and kinfolk stuff, and that was apparently a very early on decision from the get go. I have no real love for WtA old lore, it mostly always seemed gross and weird with the obsession with breeding and kinfolk and just overall feeling gross to me, a minority kid in an extremely white town who was always treated like a second class citizen all through the 80s and early 90s. Forsaken was always waaaaay more interesting to me, and even the lupines that show up in VtM games I run more closely resemble WtF werewolves than anything from WtA because WtA was always sorta trash. Even in Revised the Get were super fash and gross, but then again if they had turned around and said "the Red Talons are now pieces of poo poo and have decided to wipe humanity off the face of the Earth because they decided humans are the problem," like that would have also been just as valid and logical a next step to the tribes as saying "well the Get have gone full fash now" since their entire schtick was rule by the strongest and purity of body and vision. Multiple tribes were complete pieces of poo poo. So yeah, the last two pages of this thread perseverating over the Get being fascists strikes me as really odd when the Native writer who was primarily discussing Native issues and problems with appropriation primarily cited the bulk of his problems stemming from consistently being dismissed and talked down to by rando Swede editor man. The brand really didn't genuinely give a poo poo about his concerns about representation and very much had their own agenda they wanted to push and just didn't get nor didn't actually want to get what this person was putting down. It's like how the DHS has a gaggle of civil rights lawyers in their employ and an entire division devoted to civil rights litigation... they hire these people not to actually look out for the rights of the people DHS arrests and detains and not to actually represent these same people and make sure they're treated fairly... no no, these guys are hired so they can instruct the DHS operators in exactly what they can and can't do to *just* toe the line and not get the entire dept in trouble or get the news involved or cause some sort of chain of evidence/confession under duress type issue. They're veiled yesmen who are there to help push the baseline agenda of the agency, not actually protect civil rights. It sounds like that's the type of "representation" writers Paradox was looking for, but the OP of that post was the other kind, that actually cares.
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Jul 23, 2023 02:41
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I figure we mostly looked at the commentary on Native issues and nodded in our hearts, said "yeah" and moved on. Like that is the problem in some cases; you say nine reasonable and intelligent things and one weird thing, and guess which one's gonna draw way more than 10% of the commentary? I mean I ain't buying this poo poo even if I was fond enough of oWerewolf to at least read the news. If I was going to run a Werewolf game I'd just get WW20 and make strategic lore edits.
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Jul 23, 2023 02:54
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Lol we’re getting Tribebook: Wayward.
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Jul 23, 2023 02:56
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Free Gratis posted:This may be a hot take, but my gut feeling is that the new Get are kind of going to be like Heroes from The Very Bad Game. Oh, you mean the guys who were originally written to be very thinly veiled stand-ins for fascists and other reactionaries? That's an unfortunate parallel to exist. Fuzz posted:It's like how the DHS has a gaggle of civil rights lawyers in their employ and an entire division devoted to civil rights litigation... they hire these people not to actually look out for the rights of the people DHS arrests and detains and not to actually represent these same people and make sure they're treated fairly... no no, these guys are hired so they can instruct the DHS operators in exactly what they can and can't do to *just* toe the line and not get the entire dept in trouble or get the news involved or cause some sort of chain of evidence/confession under duress type issue. They're veiled yesmen who are there to help push the baseline agenda of the agency, not actually protect civil rights. That sounds about right. Whoever pointed out that Muammar was happy to divorce tribes from their roots in real-world peoples when those peoples are marginalized but definitely wanted to pull on the Get being Nazis made it click for me that a lot of what is trying to be presented as accessible design in the new edition is, at least subconsciously, not really motivated in good faith. And having Justin Achilli's name on this product is feeling less and less like it matters in any meaningful way, except perhaps to reflect poorly on him. I Am Just a Box fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Jul 23, 2023 |
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Jul 23, 2023 03:27
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citybeatnik posted:There's no birthright to any tribe, where you'd have to prove your heritage to be close enough to the bouncer deciding whether you get to partake of the rites to get into this or that particular Cool Kids Club. So I don't see that much of an issue with most kinfolk not deciding to go join the Furious Assholes League unless they don't see a choice. Same with joining the Degenerate Assholes League by being dared to breakdance down the Spiral. Fuzz posted:Except they're not, because even in Heart of the Forest where your PC is a descendant of some Get, that's actually a rarity overall and most Garou are just "chosen by Gaia" like the kid sweeping the floor at the end of the Last Jedi - W5 has done away with all heredity and kinfolk stuff, and that was apparently a very early on decision from the get go. Also: You may not have to be a descendant of a werewolf to be a werewolf but I don't think they're going to have a bunch of White people join the Ghost Council or the Galestalkers, Evan Heals The Past was a problem for a reason. they're still going to be ethnically oriented. the Fianna are still probably going to be Oirish as gently caress. Nessus posted:I figure we mostly looked at the commentary on Native issues and nodded in our hearts, said "yeah" and moved on. Like that is the problem in some cases; you say nine reasonable and intelligent things and one weird thing, and guess which one's gonna draw way more than 10% of the commentary?
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Jul 23, 2023 03:28
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Nessus posted:I figure we mostly looked at the commentary on Native issues and nodded in our hearts, said "yeah" and moved on. Like that is the problem in some cases; you say nine reasonable and intelligent things and one weird thing, and guess which one's gonna draw way more than 10% of the commentary? Fair, though to me as a minority and what I assume the bulk of you guys are white, the focus drifting immediately to, "we are upset about the thing that pertained to white people," is sitting there in the back of my head as any discussion about the other stuff is just tabled or handwaved. I know that's not the case for the bulk of you, but that's how it comes across in White Wolf property related discussions, wherever they may be, since all of the games across both franchises have always been really heavily rife with racism, excused bigotry, apologism, and a general white european ethnocentrism. Probably should stop jumping back and forth between reading this thread and the main discords for WoD, since yeah, lots of bad faith arguers around making excuses, as usual.
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Jul 23, 2023 03:34
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 21:32 |
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Kurieg posted:Also: You may not have to be a descendant of a werewolf to be a werewolf but I don't think they're going to have a bunch of White people join the Ghost Council or the Galestalkers, Evan Heals The Past was a problem for a reason. they're still going to be ethnically oriented. the Fianna are still probably going to be Oirish as gently caress. I can only think of him as Steals-the-Past now. The first Caucasian Younger Brother cub which I note only because along the way and through the decades I'd assumed he was mixed race.
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Jul 23, 2023 03:46
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