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Open Source Idiom posted:Eh, didn't they both just spend a generation of life in cryosleep? Seems like being told you'll die in a century and a half is more meaningful when it's common to spend decades napping. stephenthinkpad posted:No that's the best part. Though personally I will never respect the move of building up a character as unlikable/annoying to make their death less sympathetic. It reminded me of a random character in Star Trek Discovery who was really obnoxiously patronizing to the main character and then got comically killed by an asteroid before the end of the episode. And all the characters were treating it with the weight of a colleague dying, but the audience was clearly supposed to be satisfied at this rude guy loving dying. Unless we're talking literal Nazis getting their faces melted off, I really do not appreciate that dehumanizing move being pulled for people we just kind of vaguely disapprove of. Personal hangup of mine.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:47
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I thought I heard it in the episode and wasn’t sure, so I went back and checked… The Cleric says he’s the only one alive who has seen the previous Vault opening with Seldon, and if you go back, he’s actually there as a kid in season 1, which makes him 150 years old. They never mention people living that long anywhere, do they? He doesn’t look a day over 60 anyhow.
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Jul 22, 2023 19:14
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It's Claric, and one assumes a combo of Foundation tech and cryosleep during long journeys of proselytization
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Jul 22, 2023 19:29
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Eiba posted:Nah. Introducing him earlier makes sense considering this story is way more serialized and interconnected than the books. If he's gonna be a huge villain of a continuous story it doesn't work as well to have him just pop up in the last third. I explicitly said the problem is that there was no setup, no introduction, not that he was introduced too early and I stand with my comment on him looking goofy. He literally looked like a satirical version of a "scifi villain" including Mad Max armor, hand gun etc. He wouldn't look out of place in some C-tier SciFi movie. That isn't helped by the fact that he is chasing our protagonist alone on foot for some reason, acting more like a henchman than a big bad (that whole scene was awkward and just poor "action"), it's just one cliche after another. And again to repeat my issue here: The audience knows nothing about him except that he is "bad". There is no context to his role in the story, that he even is supposed to be a warlord (a warlord of what?`what faction? why is there a warlord etc.), what "power" he actually has (but let's just throw in the concept of mentalist and not bother in setting that up), WHY he is "bad", what he does etc. He is literally just a generic bad guy whose name even has to be told through pure exposition, we don't even get his name organically. So that whole scene isn't even really an introduction to the Mule, it's more of an exposition dump because the whole scene with him only serves as macguffin to get their version of the Second Foundation plotline going including their "time skip" shenanigans. So not only is the "introduction" of the Mule wasted, they also hardly manage to properly setup the Second Foundation which is also just treated as a story macguffin. The Second Foundation is important because the exposition says so, not because it's in any way or shape explored. Also note that the big "oh no!" moment wasn't the Mule or the Second Foundation, it's that Salvor is dead. So the story doesn't even give these two central elements enough attention, it's suddenly about "how did Salvor end up dead there". The way the Second Foundation is treated is also a big disappointment. If you wanted to have a big mystery/twist, the Second Foundation could have been that but it looks like they need the Second Foundation to keep Gael/Salvor relevant/busy which is a shame. That's also another problem I have with this whole scene. Gael (or Salvor) meeting the Mule isn't earned (yet). The audience has no context for the Mule and the characters don't even have any relationship with him so you are wasting his introduction because there has been no setup, the stakes aren't clear. The villain meeting the protagonists should always be a big moment in your story but here the Mule is only part of a flashforward that is too short to actually build him up as proper villain and too long for him being just a mysterious/distant threat. In this case NOT naming him at all would have actually been the better choice. Introduce the vague threat of someone, even obscure "our" view of him and make him a mystery for the time being (even the "fake" Mule version). Focus on exploring the powers Gael/Salvor have and what they mean for their "plan", what the Second Foundation is and what role it has to play and develop the First Foundation INCLUDING the upcoming conflict because within that the Mule can naturally be introduced, that's where the audience should meet him first, not directly through our protagonists. That way you tease this new threat and when they actually meet it has some weight (no matter which version of the Mule). Though all the issues stem from the fact that we have two "useless" protagonists that are disconnected from the rest of the story and a lot of plot padding has to happen due to that. It's obvious that both of them will be integrated within the Second Foundation part of the story but I already dread that. Not only because both are the worst part of the show but because their characters and how the story treats them conflict with the whole idea of the (Second) Foundation. Having said that the way Seldon's plan is depicted is also a complete mess by this point and I doubt that the core premise of the (original) story is even clear to the audience. The show already treats everything as if it would depend on individual actions and that its part of some kind of magic mathematical prophecy and the whole societal development angle gets lost in this, it's all about the actions of Seldon himself, Gael and Salvor and thus undermining a big part of the core concept before it could even develop within the story (you also lose something in regards to the psychohistory as "religion" angle and the irony in there if the story treats these predictions as godlike prophecies including "chosen ones"). Even how they present things going wrong feels more "multiverse"/different timeline-shenanigans than what the real idea behind "psychohistory" was (and you have to properly establish what psychohistory in its essence is before you can subvert it later, the way they portray it currently the Mule won't stand out from any other "random" event/character).
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Jul 22, 2023 20:10
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I never read the books and I don't know who this Mule guy is but his show representation is goofy as gently caress with his dumb Dr Robotnik glasses and Iron Man blaster that doesn't even kill when hitting the target. "But he didn't want to kill he wanted info" well the show says he failed there too. Also we didn't see him kill anyone just a bunch of Terminator walking. This show has a blank check budget it doesn't know what to do with, and I think as a metacommentary about how Apple is sort of sighing dejectedly going, "I think we made too much money" is way more interesting than the show itself. Multi-Cleon is still a fun ride but LOL at that dinner party laying it all out. Nu-Cleopatra is basically the audience pointing out all the massive holes in all of Empire's plans (or divergence from plans). What IS Brother Dawn gonna do exactly? Twitch stream? Maybe shoulda thought of that beforehand?
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Jul 22, 2023 21:35
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sure okay posted:I never read the books and I don't know who this Mule guy is but his show representation is goofy as gently caress with his dumb Dr Robotnik glasses and Iron Man blaster that doesn't even kill when hitting the target. Hard to talk about this without spoilers but you shouldn’t really (light spoiler) read too much into how the Mule looks.
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Jul 22, 2023 22:00
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sure okay posted:This show has a blank check budget it doesn't know what to do with, and I think as a metacommentary about how Apple is sort of sighing dejectedly going, "I think we made too much money" is way more interesting than the show itself. The latest ep of VFX artist reacts is with Foundation VFX supervisors and its very precisely not a blank check budget show that makes some scenes look goofy as gently caress. That said, it really doesn't excuse the writing
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Jul 23, 2023 01:53
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I swear half this show is some of the best sci-fi I’ve experienced in a long loving time; and the other is pretty mind numbingly boring. To the shows credit though the best parts of the show are completely made up for the show.
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Jul 23, 2023 02:43
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Eiba posted:This version also doesn't look goofy. He definitely does. He wouldn't look out of place in something like Farscape, but here he looks ridiculous. Tiggum fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Jul 23, 2023 |
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Jul 23, 2023 03:08
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Tiggum posted:He definitely does. Be wouldn't look out of place in something like Farscape, but here he looks ridiculous. The Monks vs Cowboys material was the most Farscape thing I've seen since Farscape IMO
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Jul 23, 2023 03:30
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Wait, when did Gaal trap Seldon's consciousness in the Prime Radiant? Was that shown in happening in Season 1? Also, Gaal can suddenly quantum leap her consciousness into the future?? Is that in the books?? This show serves all over the road at times. edit: Removed show spoiler tags Penitent fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Jul 23, 2023 |
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Jul 23, 2023 03:33
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Penitent posted:Wait, when did Gaal trap Seldon's consciousness in the Prime Radiant? Was that shown in happening in Season 1? Word to the wise, if it's aired then it's not a spoiler. Sort of makes it confusing to separate all the book chat (which people are avoiding) from show chat. In terms of your first question though, when Gaal overrode Hari's control of her ship last season she effectively trapped him for hundreds of years. It happened in the last third of the season, but I can't remember which specific episode. He was always in the cube, I think. She just made it so he couldn't control the rest of the ship for a (long) while, with unintended knock on effects.
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Jul 23, 2023 03:37
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Penitent posted:Is that in the books??
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Jul 23, 2023 04:11
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So Seldon is an immortal consciousness indistinguishable from an AI? Why does he care about being trapped for a few years? Time has no meaning to him.
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Jul 23, 2023 04:53
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I guess because time does have meaning for him? I dunno why you'd assume it doesn't tbh. It's not like this is real science any more than Black Mirror is.
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Jul 23, 2023 05:09
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Penitent posted:Wait, when did Gaal trap Seldon's consciousness in the Prime Radiant? Was that shown in happening in Season 1? I asked this after the first episode and the people itt were just as confused as I/you are.
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Jul 23, 2023 15:18
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stephenthinkpad posted:So Seldon is an immortal consciousness indistinguishable from an AI? Why does he care about being trapped for a few years? Time has no meaning to him. There was a Black Mirror episode about this. Solitary confinement is legit torture.
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Jul 23, 2023 15:22
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Boris Galerkin posted:There was a Black Mirror episode about this. Good cyberpunk stuff that talks about using machines to emulate a conscious pay attention to the computer and the energy required to run the emulation. It uses a poo poo tons of energy. So if your copy is inside a machine, there should be an option to let the machine use much less cpu which to the emulated conscious feels like pressing the fast forward button and letting time go by 10x to 100000x faster. It's just like the idea of making a machine feeling physical pain, yes you can design a machine to do that but you would have to go out of your way to mimic this human feeling.
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Jul 23, 2023 15:51
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Tiggum posted:Safe bet that nothing happening in the show this season is from the books, I reckon. Yes. If it's not clear to viewers who haven't read the books, this isn't an adaptation like Dune or early GoT or LotR where exact scenes from the original are recreated, maybe even with the same dialogue. It's more of a complete reimagining, where general plot arcs and character names were taken, but the actual content of the original work was completely thrown out.
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Jul 23, 2023 17:11
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I mean that’s fine in essence, but as it stands, two out of three of the plots are a bit poo poo.
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Jul 23, 2023 17:16
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The good one is the one they invented 100% for the show, which is a bit baffling. Like grappling with adapting the Foundation IP is poisoning their critical thinking and writing talent, but when the writer’s room is allowed to be wholly original they thrive.
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Jul 23, 2023 17:31
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How did Demerzel know that the knife Cleon was slashed with had poison in it?
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Jul 23, 2023 18:38
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When I started the show I was hopeful that it would explore systemic reasons why empires fall. Sadly that’s not the case. I was wondering though how much the actual books explore it.
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Jul 23, 2023 19:00
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Caros posted:Sadly, I'm sure you're right. if it was that she could just have snapped his neck while they were loving and thawed a fresh cleon and noone would be the wiser anyway I forgot about how "maths = space magic" in this dumb show, it's almost as "so bad its good" as raised by wolves at this point 
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Jul 23, 2023 19:49
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theblackw0lf posted:When I started the show I was hopeful that it would explore systemic reasons why empires fall. Sadly that’s not the case. I was wondering though how much the actual books explore it. Not really, no. The book positions it as just like an inevitable rule of nature that all empires fall into complacency/stagnation, without getting into details. I also really want to get into the weeds on the logistics of the empire, and why/how it's shrinking. The throwaway line that it's 4x smaller than it was at the peak during the reign of the Empress in the mural was tantalizing. Unfortunately the show doesn't seem interested in exploring that either. Mr. Apollo posted:How did Demerzel know that the knife Cleon was slashed with had poison in it? Android vision/sensors is the simple answer. But there's also the possibility she hired the assassins, and there's an internal conflict playing out against her programming where she's simultaneously trying to kill Cleons/Empire while unable to stop herself from protecting them.
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Jul 23, 2023 20:01
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I also think it's Demezel, but it's a play to put distance between Empire and Dominion. She wants to scupper the marriage, either out of love for Empire or jealousy or control, or some mix of things. Or possibly something to do with the previous dynasty. I also think the attempt was more important than success. If Cleon dies, he won't remember -- dead Cleons remember everything but the dying. So the near death is potentially an essential part of the ploy. Perhaps it's more motivating.
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Jul 23, 2023 20:42
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i thought this episode was actually fairly decent  mule was sufficiently silly too and the whole scene felt like 90s-00s grungy cheap scifi tv which does nice things to my brain i think ella-rae smith was a good cast for the new queen lady
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Jul 23, 2023 21:02
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theblackw0lf posted:When I started the show I was hopeful that it would explore systemic reasons why empires fall. Sadly that’s not the case. I was wondering though how much the actual books explore it. According to Asimov, he was inspired by Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, and while the show has a hard time reflecting it, the thesis was that (book spoilers here-on out) the fringes of the Empire would fall into decline first, and the "barbarians" would begin plundering their neighbours, while the core kept rotting and stagnating. Hence Hari Seldon and psychohistory, and the two Foundations trying to Canticle to Leibowitz civilization in the former and trying to mentally steer things in the latter case. The whole saga ends with Demerzel, or R. Daneel Olivaw, making sure humanity forms "Galaxia", which is a sort of telepathic joint organism of all of humanity, because all previous human societies failed in some way or another and R. Daneel is forced by the laws of robotics to look after humanity. Asimov hints that "Galaxia" needs to be formed because humanity has not met aliens yet, but they might, but he never got around to writing that since, you know, he died.
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Jul 23, 2023 22:05
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Is Planet Mexico in the book
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Jul 24, 2023 09:31
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Yeah that was actually the only scene in the series they took from the books with complete accuracy. It was uncanny seeing it brought from page to screen.
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Jul 24, 2023 12:31
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So if I get this correctly, they've moved the entire 2nd Foundation to another planet entirely completely missing the premise of WHY it was placed on the original world, and combined the plot of the end of the religion with the foundation war as Empire is calling Bel Riose for an ultimately futile war gesture? Also why even have Jared Harris in your show, if you're not using him other than to stand in the background and stand there, mouth closed looking on.... Also the Mule was dumb. Sorry, but a galaxy-level threat able to bend populace and military with his super-strength mind powers and he goes out by himself to kill people with guns and fists? lol.
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Jul 24, 2023 17:51
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This show is the next best thing we have to silly sci-fi ever since Raised By Wolves got cancelled. Shame it's not even close, though. I had to laugh at a couple of parts that weren't supposed to be laughed at. Specifically, when Gaal says she saw most of the galaxy had already fallen I was like "Yeah? You got all that from the 1 block of destroyed city around you? drat." And then when she told Salvor she was dead, in the future, in 150 years, in a timeline they are actively trying to change, I laughed because it didn't make sense to be episode-ending, secret-keeping dramatic about it. If those events actually happen, then you already failed a thousand other ways, I don't think it matters much that you saw her dead. It's nice this show has more Jared Harris chewing scenery (when given the chance) than I expected it to after the first season seemed to get him for a dozen lines before shoving him off. Now that he's an immortal cyber god, I suspect we should see a lot more of him this season, right? Hey Gaal's actress, pretend you're holding onto a spaceship control stick as your vessel is thrust up against a giant wave in the ocean!  Uhhh.... .....sure.
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Jul 25, 2023 09:09
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DaveKap posted:I had to laugh at a couple of parts that weren't supposed to be laughed at. Specifically, when Gaal says she saw most of the galaxy had already fallen I was like "Yeah? You got all that from the 1 block of destroyed city around you? drat." She read her future self's mind.
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Jul 25, 2023 09:41
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Open Source Idiom posted:She read her future self's mind. The show did a bad job communicating that. Maybe a rapid fire succession of nice matte paintings of galactic destruction rather than running around a generic destroyed city set being chased by a 1990s cyberpunk movie bad guy? They could have been a bit more abstract with the future-seeing depiction in general, going as literal as they did only made the whole sequence look incredibly cheap. SCheeseman fucked around with this message at 09:47 on Jul 25, 2023 |
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Jul 25, 2023 09:45
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Mr.Misfit posted:Also the Mule was dumb. Sorry, but a galaxy-level threat able to bend populace and military with his super-strength mind powers and he goes out by himself to kill people with guns and fists? lol. actually if you rewatch i believe you'll find that it was actually a sweet wrist launcher Open Source Idiom posted:She read her future self's mind. fffff ok this makes sense but I totally didn't get that either, I thought she'd projected herself there somehow
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Jul 25, 2023 16:22
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Like, it's the most insane nonsense I've seen since "change the future to save the past" or whatever, but she was talking about, essentially, time travelling by accessing the past memories of her future self. So she's technically experiencing a memory of being beaten up by the new villain, which would presumably encompass all other facts relevant to her future self's context. That memory could be all of thirty seconds old though.
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Jul 25, 2023 17:18
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So I’m not really following why Brother day wants this marriage. 1. How does this specific alliance benefit empire? 2. How does having actual children help fix the lineage issue that has been caused by the divergence of the clones?
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Jul 25, 2023 20:21
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I was wondering where I knew the new Warden from, turns out the guy played Bill Tench in Mindhunter Hi Mr McCallany, we'd like to offer you the part, you're going to be a little histrionic for most of your screen time, and then- well, do you remember the "Two Weeks" scene in Total Recall? E: also I know this is some nitpicker's guide to star Trek poo poo but I like how the ship could self-repair a two meter hole in the pressure hull, but couldnt clear off a patch of coral the size of my noodly little forearm Phy fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jul 25, 2023 |
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Jul 25, 2023 20:55
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theblackw0lf posted:So I’m not really following why Brother day wants this marriage. 1. How does this specific alliance benefit empire? 2. How does having actual children help fix the lineage issue that has been caused by the divergence of the clones? If I had to make a guess that ultimately made sense, I think Day is playing the Hegemony. It's already implied he killed the rest of her family in a zeppelin accident (lol), so all he needs to do is have a kid, kill her, and his kid is in charge of this Hegemony, and is presumably loyal through blood ties/indoctrination or whatever. In this case the prospective bride's awareness and cynicism about the whole deal is kind of ironic (in a good way), as she's calling out all these inconsistencies and weaknesses, but ultimately Empire still has the power to bend the situation to their will. Or else Day has really lost it and thinks genetic dice rolls are the way forward after the two thousand year experiment of the eternal Cleon is proving to have a time limit after all. That's less interesting, and seems like an obviously bad idea, but seems to be the surface implication at the moment.
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Jul 25, 2023 21:01
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I think the idea of moving to a more traditional dynasty just means they don't have to keep pretending the original line of Cleon is still pure and unadulterated.
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Jul 25, 2023 21:42
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